THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[beelzebub 23,380]

1 hour ago, PaulRB said:

Lots of unfounded assumptions that serve to allow you to feel righteous! Bully for you.

Try some compassion for some of those involved in this saga who are suffering for the wrongs of others. 

who are they 

[ManDee 7,162]

1 hour ago, PaulRB said:

Lots of unfounded assumptions that serve to allow you to feel righteous! Bully for you.

Try some compassion for some of those involved in this saga who are suffering for the wrongs of others. 

I am not sure who you mean here.

 

Perhaps partners and families of the players, sure. But the EFC, the Coach/s, the organisers, Dank, the Doc, those that new and did not raise the alarm and players and their management  someone/ everyone should have raised the alarm and failing to do so taints them all in my opinion. Suffer the consequences for cheating the lot of you. 

If you feel sorry for the players you should read the WADA code, they are responsible for everything that enters their bodies. *Limited exceptions - Whilst unconscious in an emergency room for example.

 

[PaulRB 6,393]

9 minutes ago, ManDee said:

I am not sure who you mean here.

 

Perhaps partners and families of the players, sure. But the EFC, the Coach/s, the organisers, Dank, the Doc, those that new and did not raise the alarm and players and their management  someone/ everyone should have raised the alarm and failing to do so taints them all in my opinion. Suffer the consequences for cheating the lot of you. 

If you feel sorry for the players you should read the WADA code, they are responsible for everything that enters their bodies. *Limited exceptions - Whilst unconscious in an emergency room for example.

 

For starters, compassion isn't reserved for the innocent, it can be practiced on those who have done wrong, and are suffering.

That said, for those who like to use rules rather than an open heart to direct their compassion, you use the idea that because the code says the players are responsible for everything that enters their bodies, therefore having compassion for their suffering should be withheld, reads like an accountant or computers response to another suffering. 

Would you or I have acted any different to the Essendon players in believing their club wouldn't expose them to illegal substances and the issues that have resulted?

I would have trusted the club. I suspect prior to this fiasco, most players at most clubs would trust the club. The uniformity of the Don's players response highlights that they all trusted the club. And for that trust they have suffered. I've no problem extending compassion to them.

Edited December 8, 2015 by PaulRB

[binman 43,182]

17 hours ago, Dees2014 said:

My sources. Which have earn pretty spot on so far - or haven't you noticed? I have every confidence in them. Can you show me yours?

Not wanting to pick a fight, honestly, but whilst you may have good sources as far as i can recall nothing that has happened thus far in the EFC supplement saga indicates your sources have been spot on. I mean you certainly have pontificated alot and mentioned your highly placed sources often enough but as far i can tell what has actually transpired thus far has been predictable and in fact has been accurately predicted by many on this thread who have not claimed such sources. 

Happy to be corrected

[Dees2014 2,377]

37 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

and who's fault is that Red ?   2 years minus the served time.  put them back on deck around august 17.   Fine by me

My only interest is that the players are found guilty so that then they can go after Hird and his cheating crew. Without a guilty verdict for the players, that will not be possible.  I don't care what penalty the players get as long as they are found guilty. After that, WADA/ASADA can nail the real guilty parties. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Dees2014

[Chris 2,892]

12 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

For starters, compassion isn't reserved for the innocent, it can be practiced on those who have done wrong, and are suffering.

That said, for those who like to use rules rather than an open heart to direct their compassion, you use the idea that because the code says the players are responsible for everything that enters their bodies, therefore having compassion for their suffering should be withheld, reads like an accountant or computers response to another suffering. 

Would you or I have acted any different to the Essendon players in believing their club wouldn't expose them to illegal substances and the issues that have resulted?

I would have trusted the club. I suspect prior to this fiasco, most players at most clubs would trust the club. The uniformity of the Don's players response highlights that they all trusted the club. And for that trust they have suffered. I've no problem extending compassion to them.

I would have, but only due to having proper training in what the code is. I don't think the AFL supplied proper training or had proper processes in place (asking and trusting the doctor and club is not right). I do have some compassion for them due to this lack of real training but it is still up to them to know the substance and the code, did they check?

[faultydet 7,614]

28 minutes ago, Chris said:

I would have, but only due to having proper training in what the code is. I don't think the AFL supplied proper training or had proper processes in place (asking and trusting the doctor and club is not right). I do have some compassion for them due to this lack of real training but it is still up to them to know the substance and the code, did they check?

Compassion is not warranted at all.

 

The players had a chance to 'fess up to the drugs they took, when questioned by ASADA, but, to a man they chose to say nothing.

 

Thats a cover up pure and simple, by any measure. Compassion is a gutless approach in this instance, and I hope CAS show none.

[PaulRB 6,393]

8 hours ago, faultydet said:

Compassion is not warranted at all.

 

The players had a chance to 'fess up to the drugs they took, when questioned by ASADA, but, to a man they chose to say nothing.

 

Thats a cover up pure and simple, by any measure. Compassion is a gutless approach in this instance, and I hope CAS show none.

I think you are confusing compassion with leniency.

Compassion - feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

2 hours ago, PaulRB said:

Lots of unfounded assumptions that serve to allow you to feel righteous! Bully for you.

Try some compassion for some of those involved in this saga who are suffering for the wrongs of others. 

Compassion for Drug Cheats...

why? They have had numerous opportunities to come clean. But chose not to. 

100's of injections offsite

if it was my gut i wouldn't have been quiet

please do not bring sympathy into this breach of the game. 

[faultydet 7,614]

Just now, PaulRB said:

I think you are confusing compassion with leniency.

Compassion - feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering. 

I'm not confused at all PaulRB.

 

You said this:

For starters, compassion isn't reserved for the innocent, it can be practiced on those who have done wrong, and are suffering.

That said, for those who like to use rules rather than an open heart to direct their compassion, you use the idea that because the code says the players are responsible for everything that enters their bodies, therefore having compassion for their suffering should be withheld, reads like an accountant or computers response to another suffering. 

Would you or I have acted any different to the Essendon players in believing their club wouldn't expose them to illegal substances and the issues that have resulted?

I would have trusted the club. I suspect prior to this fiasco, most players at most clubs would trust the club. The uniformity of the Don's players response highlights that they all trusted the club. And for that trust they have suffered. I've no problem extending compassion to them.

 

Whereas I am saying that the players attempted to cover it up, which should, even to you, show that they deserve no compassion OR sympathy. Attempting to hide the use of illegal, performance enhancing drugs, deserves nothing but contempt. I really dont understand why anyone would have feelings of compassion for someone who has actively contributed to his own predicament, in an attempt to get away with something. (By that I mean the playing group)

[PaulRB 6,393]

1 minute ago, faultydet said:

I'm not confused at all PaulRB.

 

You said this:

For starters, compassion isn't reserved for the innocent, it can be practiced on those who have done wrong, and are suffering.

That said, for those who like to use rules rather than an open heart to direct their compassion, you use the idea that because the code says the players are responsible for everything that enters their bodies, therefore having compassion for their suffering should be withheld, reads like an accountant or computers response to another suffering. 

Would you or I have acted any different to the Essendon players in believing their club wouldn't expose them to illegal substances and the issues that have resulted?

I would have trusted the club. I suspect prior to this fiasco, most players at most clubs would trust the club. The uniformity of the Don's players response highlights that they all trusted the club. And for that trust they have suffered. I've no problem extending compassion to them.

 

Whereas I am saying that the players attempted to cover it up, which should, even to you, show that they deserve no compassion OR sympathy. Attempting to hide the use of illegal, performance enhancing drugs, deserves nothing but contempt. I really dont understand why anyone would have feelings of compassion for someone who has actively contributed to his own predicament, in an attempt to get away with something. (By that I mean the playing group)

You use righteous assumptions and a simplified black and white moral frameworks to justify your inability to extend basic human sympathy to another human. That's your choice. I think its a poor choice, as most of us on this forum... 

1. don't know enough about the situation to pass judgement except from our own biased beliefs, and

2. would probably have done as the 34 players did.

Irrespective, Compassion isn't earnt or deserved or warranted by some and not others. It is cultivated and given. I choose to give the players compassion, and forgive and wish them well for the rest of their lives.

Sorry if that upsets you.

 

[faultydet 7,614]

3 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

You use righteous assumptions and a simplified black and white moral frameworks to justify your inability to extend basic human sympathy to another human. That's your choice. I think its a poor choice, as most of us on this forum... 

1. don't know enough about the situation to pass judgement except from our own biased beliefs, and

2. would probably have done as the 34 players did.

Irrespective, Compassion isn't earnt or deserved or warranted by some and not others. It is cultivated and given. I choose to give the players compassion, and forgive and wish them well for the rest of their lives.

Sorry if that upsets you.

 

If you are in class 1, then you are not informed enough to warrant giving compassion, just as I am not informed enough to deny it. Dont let your "moral" leanings blind you to the cover up, which clearly they are.

 

You are just as free to give it, as I am to deny, and I think you are mistaken if you think i'm upset by it. There are always people who feel sorry for cheats, but I am not one of them.

[ManDee 7,162]

1 hour ago, PaulRB said:

For starters, compassion isn't reserved for the innocent, it can be practiced on those who have done wrong, and are suffering.

That said, for those who like to use rules rather than an open heart to direct their compassion, you use the idea that because the code says the players are responsible for everything that enters their bodies, therefore having compassion for their suffering should be withheld, reads like an accountant or computers response to another suffering. 

Would you or I have acted any different to the Essendon players in believing their club wouldn't expose them to illegal substances and the issues that have resulted?

I would have trusted the club. I suspect prior to this fiasco, most players at most clubs would trust the club. The uniformity of the Don's players response highlights that they all trusted the club. And for that trust they have suffered. I've no problem extending compassion to them.

 

All players are instructed every year by every club about the drug policy.

Between 1990 and 2007 more than 6000 anti-doping code tests were conducted in and out of competition.

In 2007 the players put this out http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=1225710  about saying no to drugs.

Are you seriously suggesting compassion for a group of elite athletes trained annually in drug policy that fail to contact ASADA or any independent professional to clarify if the 100's of injections are all above board?

No my friend they are complicit and need to be punished. No compassion, do the crime do the time!

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

12 minutes ago, faultydet said:

 There are always people who feel sorry for cheats, but I am not one of them.

Exactly. Bet they all felt great after winning the first 9 games of 2012

"The Weapon" was a Hero

[faultydet 7,614]

To be fair to PaulRB I think he is saying that if found guily, they should be suitably punished? Is that right Paul?

 

I just think you are overlooking the fact they have attempted a cover up. Doesnt that suggest to you that they know the drugs were suspect at least?

 

It sure as hell does to me.

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

I am sure the players knew what was going on when the muscles started to grow. 

"Whatever it Takes..."

i do not think the players were ever as naive as they have made out. 

[faultydet 7,614]

33 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I am sure the players knew what was going on when the muscles started to grow. 

"Whatever it Takes..."

i do not think the players were ever as naive as they have made out. 

But that was the entire point of the program SWYL, therefore they may not necessarily have instantly known that they were taking illegal PED's

I do however think that you would be incredibly naive to think that they had no idea, if they decided to keep it a secret from ASADA though.

 

[beelzebub 23,380]

3 hours ago, faultydet said:

Compassion is not warranted at all.

 

The players had a chance to 'fess up to the drugs they took, when questioned by ASADA, but, to a man they chose to say nothing.

 

Thats a cover up pure and simple, by any measure. Compassion is a gutless approach in this instance, and I hope CAS show none.

Unfortunately there's very much to consider about this isn't there.  I really wonder where the parents were half the time, especially once the cat was out of the bag. Only an idiot would have believed the club's rhetoric after that.

[monoccular 17,443]

On 7 December 2015 12:49:37, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'd find it hard to believe that Melksham or his manager would have agreed to a contract with a suspension from pay clause in it.

And I find it hard to believe that MFC would have taken him on, on full pay, without some get out clause.

[monoccular 17,443]

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I am sure the players knew what was going on when the muscles started to grow. 

"Whatever it Takes..."

i do not think the players were ever as naive as they have made out. 

 

1 hour ago, faultydet said:

But that was the entire point of the program SWYL, therefore they may not necessarily have instantly known that they were taking illegal PED's

I do however think that you would be incredibly naive to think that they had no idea, if they decided to keep it a secret from ASADA though.

 

But they knew that they were talking something that they should have ensured was OK, rather than saying that they didn't know it wasnn't

[PaulRB 6,393]

You guys are like a lynch mob out of an old Western!

Rattling around reasons to string em up!

Yiiihaaar!

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

20 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

You guys are like a lynch mob out of an old Western!

Rattling around reasons to string em up!

Yiiihaaar!

 

Only because j have thought the whole club did it and was 100% guilty since day 1 that it broke. 

[beelzebub 23,380]

20 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

You guys are like a lynch mob out of an old Western!

Rattling around reasons to string em up!

Yiiihaaar!

 

You do realise they're cheats. You'd have them prosper?

What about the non-cheaters ?

[Sir Why You Little 37,053]

2 hours ago, faultydet said:

But that was the entire point of the program SWYL, therefore they may not necessarily have instantly known that they were taking illegal PED's

I do however think that you would be incredibly naive to think that they had no idea, if they decided to keep it a secret from ASADA though.

 

Wouldn't of taken to long to notice a change of physique  with multiple injections a week and a specific diet. 

[Chris 2,892]

4 hours ago, ManDee said:

 

All players are instructed every year by every club about the drug policy.

Between 1990 and 2007 more than 6000 anti-doping code tests were conducted in and out of competition.

In 2007 the players put this out http://www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=1225710  about saying no to drugs.

Are you seriously suggesting compassion for a group of elite athletes trained annually in drug policy that fail to contact ASADA or any independent professional to clarify if the 100's of injections are all above board?

No my friend they are complicit and need to be punished. No compassion, do the crime do the time!

 

The problem is that their training says to check with the club doc, not ASADA. That is where the whole AFL thing goes wrong and opens everyone up to this very situation.