The Incredible Hulk - Jesse Hogan

[Gator 16,893]

12 minutes ago, stuie said:

As an aside, Melbourne played 10 players with less than 50 games experience..... So did St Kilda. Our average age was 24, there's 25.

Granted I understand your point is our inconsistency, but I don't like to make experience our excuse when up against a team just as inexperienced.

 

And their best players are their senior players (not necessarily on Saturday).  They had 4 players older than our oldest and those 4 have stood them in good stead for a long time.  Quality experience out on the field providing directing/coaching is invaluable.  They certainly give better guidance than our leaders. 

Also, did they have 3 players under 5 games ?

While their more senior players are better than ours their younger players do not match Hogan, Viney, Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca & Salem as a collective.

And just because the opposition might be young, OR even younger, doesn't mean we won't have inconsistency.  Our youth is a reason why we'll be inconsistent no matter the opposition, whether they're young like us on a given day, or not.  

I know whose list I'd prefer going forward. 

[stuie 7,374]

3 minutes ago, ProDee said:

And their best players are their senior players (not necessarily on Saturday).  They had 4 players older than our oldest and those 4 have stood them in good stead for a long time.  Quality experience out on the field providing directing/coaching is invaluable.  They certainly give better guidance than our leaders. 

Also, did they have 3 players under 5 games ?

While their more senior players are better than ours their younger players do not match Hogan, Viney, Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca & Salem as a collective.

And just because the opposition might be young, OR even younger, doesn't mean we won't have inconsistency.  Our youth is a reason why we'll be inconsistent no matter the opposition, whether they're young like us on a given day, or not.  

I know whose list I'd prefer going forward. 

Yeah look totally agree about the lists going forward, but I really don't think their senior players are THAT much ahead of ours in performance, however... in leadership? Well, that was my roundabout point, and the thing I was most disappointed with on Saturday. Heck, even Cotchin dragged his team in after the game to give them a talking to, we just trudged off Etihad with our eyes down once again.

 

Edited May 4, 2016 by stuie

[Undeeterred 2,864]

43 minutes ago, stuie said:

Yeah look totally agree about the lists going forward, but I really don't think their senior players are THAT much ahead of ours in performance, however... in leadership? Well, that was my roundabout point, and the thing I was most disappointed with on Saturday. Heck, even Cotchin dragged his team in after the game to give them a talking to, we just trudged off Etihad with our eyes down once again.

 

I think the St Kilda older brigade are way ahead of ours. Montagna and Riewoldt alone just carry that club and have been the bridge between the old era and the new kids coming through. We don't really have that, although Vince and Jones are good. But if those two had retired a couple of years ago, the Saints would have really crashed in that time I think. We still rely on our young blokes to carry the team over the line a large proportion of the time.

[stuie 7,374]

1 hour ago, Undeeterred said:

I think the St Kilda older brigade are way ahead of ours. Montagna and Riewoldt alone just carry that club and have been the bridge between the old era and the new kids coming through. We don't really have that, although Vince and Jones are good. But if those two had retired a couple of years ago, the Saints would have really crashed in that time I think. We still rely on our young blokes to carry the team over the line a large proportion of the time.

So you're saying that right now, not over their careers but right now, you'd rate Montagna and Riewoldt higher than Jones and Vince? Give me a spell.

The AFL player ratings don't agree with that and neither do I.

 

[Undeeterred 2,864]

3 minutes ago, stuie said:

So you're saying that right now, not over their careers but right now, you'd rate Montagna and Riewoldt higher than Jones and Vince? Give me a spell.

The AFL player ratings don't agree with that and neither do I.

 

I'd say that, right now, they still have a huge part to play in carrying that team, which is the point you are ProDee were discussing.

We rely much more on good performances from guys with 0-50 games to win, whereas I'd say in almost every win St Kilda have, it is the older players who really step up and drive performance. We have guys like Oliver, Hogan, Kent, Harmes and Viney that are the variables when we win and lose.

I think you've deliberately misunderstood me.

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

I think you've deliberately misunderstood me.

 

1 hour ago, Undeeterred said:

I think the St Kilda older brigade are way ahead of ours.

That seems pretty clear to me. You're more than entitled to that opinion, but I disagree as do the AFL player ratings.

 

[Undeeterred 2,864]

3 minutes ago, stuie said:

 

That seems pretty clear to me. You're more than entitled to that opinion, but I disagree as do the AFL player ratings.

 

Ah! So just quoting out of context without the rest of the discussion.

Look, I'm not interested in getting into a patented Stuie nitpicky fight. I'll leave it there.

[stuie 7,374]

3 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

Ah! So just quoting out of context without the rest of the discussion.

Look, I'm not interested in getting into a patented Stuie nitpicky fight. I'll leave it there.

How is that out of context? It's the complete sentence and it's not exactly an ambiguous one.

 

[Undeeterred 2,864]

2 hours ago, stuie said:

Yeah look totally agree about the lists going forward, but I really don't think their senior players are THAT much ahead of ours in performance, however... in leadership? Well, that was my roundabout point, and the thing I was most disappointed with on Saturday. Heck, even Cotchin dragged his team in after the game to give them a talking to, we just trudged off Etihad with our eyes down once again.

 

You've said the same thing. And I'm not surprised you couldn't help trying to have the last word.

[Chook 14,545]

24 minutes ago, stuie said:

So you're saying that right now, not over their careers but right now, you'd rate Montagna and Riewoldt higher than Jones and Vince? Give me a spell.

The AFL player ratings don't agree with that and neither do I.

 

I don't want to get into a nitpick debate either, but I'd rank them:

1 Riewoldt
2 Vince
3 Jones
4 Montagna

[Go the Biff 3,135]

1 hour ago, Undeeterred said:

I think the St Kilda older brigade are way ahead of ours. Montagna and Riewoldt alone just carry that club and have been the bridge between the old era and the new kids coming through. We don't really have that, although Vince and Jones are good. But if those two had retired a couple of years ago, the Saints would have really crashed in that time I think. We still rely on our young blokes to carry the team over the line a large proportion of the time.

 

30 minutes ago, stuie said:

So you're saying that right now, not over their careers but right now, you'd rate Montagna and Riewoldt higher than Jones and Vince? Give me a spell.

The AFL player ratings don't agree with that and neither do I.

 

 

It’s more than just Reiwoldt and Montagna.

Dempster, Gilbert, Fisher are all inching toward the veteran stage but are playing good footy.

After Jones & Vince we have who ? Pedersen ? Heretier ?

So to the original point " While their more senior players are better than ours " I'd agree that they are. Comfortably.

Added to that Armitage is 27 as is Geary. Jack Steven is 26. We're still thin in this age group

[Binmans PA 26,214]

41 minutes ago, Go the Biff said:

So to the original point " While their more senior players are better than ours " I'd agree that they are. Comfortably.

Added to that Armitage is 27 as is Geary. Jack Steven is 26. We're still thin in this age group

Wow, I didn't realise Armitage was 27 and Steven 26. They really are in for some pain. They'd want to be coming into their window when Steven was 26-27. I'm not sure they've got much midfield depth once Montagna, Armitage and Steven exit. Certainly not A graders anyway.

[stuie 7,374]

10 hours ago, Chook said:

I don't want to get into a nitpick debate either, but I'd rank them:

1 Riewoldt
2 Vince
3 Jones
4 Montagna

Over their careers sure, but that's not how I'd rate them this year, and neither do the official AFL rankings.

 

[stuie 7,374]

10 hours ago, Go the Biff said:

It’s more than just Reiwoldt and Montagna.

Dempster, Gilbert, Fisher are all inching toward the veteran stage but are playing good footy.

After Jones & Vince we have who ? Pedersen ? Heretier ?

So to the original point " While their more senior players are better than ours " I'd agree that they are. Comfortably.

Added to that Armitage is 27 as is Geary. Jack Steven is 26. We're still thin in this age group

 

 

Armitage and Stevens are absolute guns, no debate about them, I was arguing about Jones/Vince vs Riewoldt/Montagna.

As I said earlier, I don't believe their older players are THAT far ahead, but they are ahead as a group, my disagreement is with people saying they're "way ahead".

As far as the AFL player rankings go, the top 4 St Kilda players who have played 150 games or more have a median of 167, our top 4 have a median of 151.

I think we're letting senior players who underperformed against the Saints off the hook if we're saying their senior players are a lot better than ours, ours just failed against them on the weekend.

 

 

[sue 8,441]

The original point made was that inexperienced team will have inconsistent results. St Kilda is also inexperienced and is also playing inconsistently.    So no point in arguing over comparing their older players vs ours etc etc. 

But better in the Hogan thread than discussing 'will he or won't he' endlessly.

[pineapple dee 2,892]

Give me Hogan news or commentary please !!!

Lets get back on track people.

[Gator 16,893]

1 hour ago, pineapple dee said:

Give me Hogan news or commentary please !!!

Why don't you ?

 

 

[Demon Jack 6,324]

2 hours ago, pineapple dee said:

Give me Hogan news or commentary please !!!

Lets get back on track people.

I agree. This thread needs more Hogan

 

[Members' Wing 1,106]

7 hours ago, stuie said:

Armitage and Stevens are absolute guns, no debate about them, I was arguing about Jones/Vince vs Riewoldt/Montagna.

As I said earlier, I don't believe their older players are THAT far ahead, but they are ahead as a group, my disagreement is with people saying they're "way ahead".

As far as the AFL player rankings go, the top 4 St Kilda players who have played 150 games or more have a median of 167, our top 4 have a median of 151.

I think we're letting senior players who underperformed against the Saints off the hook if we're saying their senior players are a lot better than ours, ours just failed against them on the weekend.

 

 

Stuie I don't disagree with you but please stop quoting the AFL player rankings as if they're an authority on anything.

These rankings have Ivan Maric as the 51st best player in the comp and Max Gawn the 167th.

They also have Cam Pedersen as the 266th best player in the comp and Jesse Hogan the 277th.

[Chook 14,545]

8 hours ago, stuie said:

Over their careers sure, but that's not how I'd rate them this year, and neither do the official AFL rankings.

 

Nick Riewoldt has been very good this year, and I suspect his rankings have been badly hampered by a concussion in one round and a knee injury in another. I'd take a fully fit Riewoldt over any of those other players even now, at his age.

[stuie 7,374]

34 minutes ago, Members' Wing said:

Stuie I don't disagree with you but please stop quoting the AFL player rankings as if they're an authority on anything.

These rankings have Ivan Maric as the 51st best player in the comp and Max Gawn the 167th.

They also have Cam Pedersen as the 266th best player in the comp and Jesse Hogan the 277th.

Fair enough, just using them as a part of an argument, they're clearly not meaningless and although stats based assessments aren't the be all and end all I consider them to have more merit than a mere opinion.

 

[nutbean 8,837]

18 hours ago, stuie said:

Fair enough, just using them as a part of an argument, they're clearly not meaningless and although stats based assessments aren't the be all and end all I consider them to have more merit than a mere opinion.

 

I haven't looked at them but if they have Maric at 51 and Gawn at 167 and Pedersen at 266 and Hogan at 277 then they clearly are meaningless.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

19 minutes ago, nutbean said:

I haven't looked at them but if they have Maric at 51 and Gawn at 167 and Pedersen at 266 and Hogan at 277 then they clearly are meaningless.

It'll be career rankings nut.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

13 minutes ago, Choke said:

It'll be career rankings nut.

The player rankings take into account five years of stats. Hence why Melbourne players are raked so low.

[nutbean 8,837]

6 minutes ago, Choke said:

It'll be career rankings nut.

ahhh ! makes sense but I have just looked at the rankings for the first time - they are meaningless nonsense - James Kelly has been brilliant for all his career  - he has tapered for his last year at Geelong and is now playing for $'s at Essendon. He is rated worse than Lynden Dunn. And  Hogan topped our goalkicking and was high in contested marks in the league in his first season and has been ok this year yet is ranked worse than Pedersen.

Whatever formula they are using for those rankings - it must have gaping holes in it. 

 

Sir..the defense rests....