Changes for Round 4

[Deespicable 2,767]

Richmond have Maric and Griffiths so with Frost out we need a second ruckman, upto Roos to decide which one he wants, also think JKH will make way for Michie, has been banging the door down, dependent on MRP of course, think it will be fines all round

Agree with all you said, except there will be a lengthy debate at selection over one player.

What's in his interests (short-term and longterm) versus what's in the team's interests.

Roosy went down that path for the last 8 weeks last year and decided he didn't want to make him a high-profile example.

But when all the principles of team ethos (putting body on line for your mates, watching the ball when going for marks instead of fearing contact from behind, toughness in a scuffle, courage under fire etc) go out the door, you actually have to decide at what price can you let it happen.

I love the guy's off-field attitude and even his training attitude, but unfortunately I was a bit a whoosy when I played and I get now why you can't keep selecting a guy who is a super bloke but isn't by nature aggressive.

The game changed about a decade ago when it became all about strong core and tackling - the Swans of 2006 were regarded as the stoppage kings but even they wouldn't get anywhere near Adelaide's 108 tackles.

This finally is the week when it has come to a head. The marks were embarrassing and costly but it has nothing to do with the dropped marks. It has everything to do with the fact that once the errors were made (and every player makes errors) that he didn't get mega-aggressive and try to make amends. He internalised and went back into his shell even more. Unfortunately these days it doesn't matter if you are the fastest and the most skillful player in the side, when you lose the respect of your teammates, it's over. His teammates love him, we as fans love him, he's that kind of bloke, but do they respect him in the heat of the battle?

I had hoped that he would have spent most of the summer being taught how to tackle with intensity, but his groin issue obviously cruelled that sort of session.

I have always wondered if regular boxing sessions with teammates would reduce his game fear, but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

There is no player I love watching more, nor is there a player who I'd prefer to have the ball in his hands than him, because I know he has incredible vision and the skill to execute.

Had he been playing in Robbie's day his athleticism and skill would have made him a player and he would have had a big body like Big Carl or Biffo or Whacko Jacko protecting him.

But nowadays there's nobody that is immune from the physical stuff because it is so congested.

Don't forget, Roosy considered trading him in the off-season, so all of this is nothing new to him - Roosy knows how good he can be and he knows the damage not doing basic requirements does.

He will consider many things (he is a great coach after all) and he will be aware of his great record against Richmond in the past. But he will know that he can't have rules for one player (however talented) and another set for the rest of the team.

I'm tipping this will be the week when he decides he can't stay loyal to him anymore.

It's a sad day for all of us, because unless you are braindead, you will have realised what a great potential talent he is and how uplifting it is when he scores a goal because you can tell he really loves Melbourne FC.

But as I said earlier, the game moved 10 years ago. It's soccer build-up, rugby numbers and intensity when the ball spills and sublime speed when on the break - eg: Garlett.

I suspect it's over for him and it came to a head in Adelaide. We can talk about changing his position (there's very few positions left now that haven't been tried except maybe tagger), we can talk about him spending weeks in the twos etc and I'm sure he already sees the club psychologist. But ultimately he's a nice guy. There's nothing wrong with that, except that at a footy club, nice guys come last.

[Frosty Demon 153]

what about Pedersen for Frost, and Grimes for JKH.

Pederson yes no to Grimes

[Lucifers Hero 40,005]

Agree with all you said, except there will be a lengthy debate at selection over one player.

What's in his interests (short-term and longterm) versus what's in the team's interests.

Roosy went down that path for the last 8 weeks last year and decided he didn't want to make him a high-profile example.

But when all the principles of team ethos (putting body on line for your mates, watching the ball when going for marks instead of fearing contact from behind, toughness in a scuffle, courage under fire etc) go out the door, you actually have to decide at what price can you let it happen.

I love the guy's off-field attitude and even his training attitude, but unfortunately I was a bit a whoosy when I played and I get now why you can't keep selecting a guy who is a super bloke but isn't by nature aggressive.

The game changed about a decade ago when it became all about strong core and tackling - the Swans of 2006 were regarded as the stoppage kings but even they wouldn't get anywhere near Adelaide's 108 tackles.

This finally is the week when it has come to a head. The marks were embarrassing and costly but it has nothing to do with the dropped marks. It has everything to do with the fact that once the errors were made (and every player makes errors) that he didn't get mega-aggressive and try to make amends. He internalised and went back into his shell even more. Unfortunately these days it doesn't matter if you are the fastest and the most skillful player in the side, when you lose the respect of your teammates, it's over. His teammates love him, we as fans love him, he's that kind of bloke, but do they respect him in the heat of the battle?

I had hoped that he would have spent most of the summer being taught how to tackle with intensity, but his groin issue obviously cruelled that sort of session.

I have always wondered if regular boxing sessions with teammates would reduce his game fear, but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

There is no player I love watching more, nor is there a player who I'd prefer to have the ball in his hands than him, because I know he has incredible vision and the skill to execute.

Had he been playing in Robbie's day his athleticism and skill would have made him a player and he would have had a big body like Big Carl or Biffo or Whacko Jacko protecting him.

But nowadays there's nobody that is immune from the physical stuff because it is so congested.

Don't forget, Roosy considered trading him in the off-season, so all of this is nothing new to him - Roosy knows how good he can be and he knows the damage not doing basic requirements does.

He will consider many things (he is a great coach after all) and he will be aware of his great record against Richmond in the past. But he will know that he can't have rules for one player (however talented) and another set for the rest of the team.

I'm tipping this will be the week when he decides he can't stay loyal to him anymore.

It's a sad day for all of us, because unless you are braindead, you will have realised what a great potential talent he is and how uplifting it is when he scores a goal because you can tell he really loves Melbourne FC.

But as I said earlier, the game moved 10 years ago. It's soccer build-up, rugby numbers and intensity when the ball spills and sublime speed when on the break - eg: Garlett.

I suspect it's over for him and it came to a head in Adelaide. We can talk about changing his position (there's very few positions left now that haven't been tried except maybe tagger), we can talk about him spending weeks in the twos etc and I'm sure he already sees the club psychologist. But ultimately he's a nice guy. There's nothing wrong with that, except that at a footy club, nice guys come last.

Assume you are talking about Jack Watts

[Deespicable 2,767]

Assume you are talking about Jack Watts

If you don't know who I am talking about then you haven't been watching our games.

[Frosty Demon 153]

Agree with all you said, except there will be a lengthy debate at selection over one player.

What's in his interests (short-term and longterm) versus what's in the team's interests.

Roosy went down that path for the last 8 weeks last year and decided he didn't want to make him a high-profile example.

But when all the principles of team ethos (putting body on line for your mates, watching the ball when going for marks instead of fearing contact from behind, toughness in a scuffle, courage under fire etc) go out the door, you actually have to decide at what price can you let it happen.

I love the guy's off-field attitude and even his training attitude, but unfortunately I was a bit a whoosy when I played and I get now why you can't keep selecting a guy who is a super bloke but isn't by nature aggressive.

The game changed about a decade ago when it became all about strong core and tackling - the Swans of 2006 were regarded as the stoppage kings but even they wouldn't get anywhere near Adelaide's 108 tackles.

This finally is the week when it has come to a head. The marks were embarrassing and costly but it has nothing to do with the dropped marks. It has everything to do with the fact that once the errors were made (and every player makes errors) that he didn't get mega-aggressive and try to make amends. He internalised and went back into his shell even more. Unfortunately these days it doesn't matter if you are the fastest and the most skillful player in the side, when you lose the respect of your teammates, it's over. His teammates love him, we as fans love him, he's that kind of bloke, but do they respect him in the heat of the battle?

I had hoped that he would have spent most of the summer being taught how to tackle with intensity, but his groin issue obviously cruelled that sort of session.

I have always wondered if regular boxing sessions with teammates would reduce his game fear, but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

There is no player I love watching more, nor is there a player who I'd prefer to have the ball in his hands than him, because I know he has incredible vision and the skill to execute.

Had he been playing in Robbie's day his athleticism and skill would have made him a player and he would have had a big body like Big Carl or Biffo or Whacko Jacko protecting him.

But nowadays there's nobody that is immune from the physical stuff because it is so congested.

Don't forget, Roosy considered trading him in the off-season, so all of this is nothing new to him - Roosy knows how good he can be and he knows the damage not doing basic requirements does.

He will consider many things (he is a great coach after all) and he will be aware of his great record against Richmond in the past. But he will know that he can't have rules for one player (however talented) and another set for the rest of the team.

I'm tipping this will be the week when he decides he can't stay loyal to him anymore.

It's a sad day for all of us, because unless you are braindead, you will have realised what a great potential talent he is and how uplifting it is when he scores a goal because you can tell he really loves Melbourne FC.

But as I said earlier, the game moved 10 years ago. It's soccer build-up, rugby numbers and intensity when the ball spills and sublime speed when on the break - eg: Garlett.

I suspect it's over for him and it came to a head in Adelaide. We can talk about changing his position (there's very few positions left now that haven't been tried except maybe tagger), we can talk about him spending weeks in the twos etc and I'm sure he already sees the club psychologist. But ultimately he's a nice guy. There's nothing wrong with that, except that at a footy club, nice guys come last.

Well said. I believe this week we will really find out what sort of coach Roos is. He must be dropped

[Lucifers Hero 40,005]

If you don't know who I am talking about then you haven't been watching our games.

It seems, I didn't put enough irony in my question

Yes, I have been watching, I just have a different assessment.

[dazzledavey36 55,057]

Agree with all you said, except there will be a lengthy debate at selection over one player.

What's in his interests (short-term and longterm) versus what's in the team's interests.

Roosy went down that path for the last 8 weeks last year and decided he didn't want to make him a high-profile example.

But when all the principles of team ethos (putting body on line for your mates, watching the ball when going for marks instead of fearing contact from behind, toughness in a scuffle, courage under fire etc) go out the door, you actually have to decide at what price can you let it happen.

I love the guy's off-field attitude and even his training attitude, but unfortunately I was a bit a whoosy when I played and I get now why you can't keep selecting a guy who is a super bloke but isn't by nature aggressive.

The game changed about a decade ago when it became all about strong core and tackling - the Swans of 2006 were regarded as the stoppage kings but even they wouldn't get anywhere near Adelaide's 108 tackles.

This finally is the week when it has come to a head. The marks were embarrassing and costly but it has nothing to do with the dropped marks. It has everything to do with the fact that once the errors were made (and every player makes errors) that he didn't get mega-aggressive and try to make amends. He internalised and went back into his shell even more. Unfortunately these days it doesn't matter if you are the fastest and the most skillful player in the side, when you lose the respect of your teammates, it's over. His teammates love him, we as fans love him, he's that kind of bloke, but do they respect him in the heat of the battle?

I had hoped that he would have spent most of the summer being taught how to tackle with intensity, but his groin issue obviously cruelled that sort of session.

I have always wondered if regular boxing sessions with teammates would reduce his game fear, but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

There is no player I love watching more, nor is there a player who I'd prefer to have the ball in his hands than him, because I know he has incredible vision and the skill to execute.

Had he been playing in Robbie's day his athleticism and skill would have made him a player and he would have had a big body like Big Carl or Biffo or Whacko Jacko protecting him.

But nowadays there's nobody that is immune from the physical stuff because it is so congested.

Don't forget, Roosy considered trading him in the off-season, so all of this is nothing new to him - Roosy knows how good he can be and he knows the damage not doing basic requirements does.

He will consider many things (he is a great coach after all) and he will be aware of his great record against Richmond in the past. But he will know that he can't have rules for one player (however talented) and another set for the rest of the team.

I'm tipping this will be the week when he decides he can't stay loyal to him anymore.

It's a sad day for all of us, because unless you are braindead, you will have realised what a great potential talent he is and how uplifting it is when he scores a goal because you can tell he really loves Melbourne FC.

But as I said earlier, the game moved 10 years ago. It's soccer build-up, rugby numbers and intensity when the ball spills and sublime speed when on the break - eg: Garlett.

I suspect it's over for him and it came to a head in Adelaide. We can talk about changing his position (there's very few positions left now that haven't been tried except maybe tagger), we can talk about him spending weeks in the twos etc and I'm sure he already sees the club psychologist. But ultimately he's a nice guy. There's nothing wrong with that, except that at a footy club, nice guys come last.

Cool story but who are you talking about??

[Bossdog 2,002]

Well said. I believe this week we will really find out what sort of coach Roos is. He must be dropped

So says the lynch mob.....

[stuie 7,374]

No suspensions from Saturday's game.

[bing181 9,248]

If you don't know who I am talking about then you haven't been watching our games.

You're making a whole heap of assumptions - about a) Watts, b) Demonlanders, c) Roos and the coaching staff.

Watts won't be dropped, and I for one don't really see the point of doing so. Rather he work on his shortcomings with McCarthy, Goodwin, Roos and co. Running round at Casey getting easy possessions isn't going to help anyone.

[WhyAlwaysMe 237]

Well it was pissing down with rain most of the time. Did you expect one of them to kick ten?

Having said that, I agree we are too tall atm, the only week we haven't been of the last 26 rounds was versus GC, and that turned out all right. Hopefully frost for michie is all that changes this week. Dawes for Pedo I'm fine with too. Dawes is a great guy, good team player, but he's pretty crap at football and I'd prefer someone who is half decent.

My point was that the weather was predictable & we failed to select an appropriate side, not that i expected the tall's to do better.

[Young Dee 1,303]

OUT:

Frost

IN:

Bail or Michie

Think we were playing one tall too many anyway - Bail or Michie can play forward and rotate through the midfield to compensate for the loss of Viney.

Bail is probably more of a natural forward. Although we already have a few small forwards, they can all run through the midfield (Garlett, JKH and Kent).

Not really keen on seeing any of Fitzy, Grimes, McKenzie etc.

Toumpas hopefully will continue to develop and build confidence at VFL.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Young Dee

[binman 43,185]

It seems, I didn't put enough irony in my question

Yes, I have been watching, I just have a different assessment.

I do too. And whilst Deespicables post is well reasoned'i think it is wrong on at least one count - and a crucial one at that. From dees post:

'It has everything to do with the fact that once the errors were made (and every player makes errors) that he didn't get mega-aggressive and try to make amends. He internalised and went back into his shell even more'

I disagree. I thought he def came out after quarter time fiercer. He laid a couple of really god tackles and committed to the ball. This is reflected in the stats that Bossdog posted that showed many of his possessions were contested. As is his norm he also was involved in a number of our goals and in a low scoring game this involvement was crucial. Roos said as much (though people tend to disregard his positive comments about Watts - what would he know?)

Yes his dropped mark costs us a goal and momentum but i don't reckon he dropped it because he was worried about getting hit. He just dropped it. I'll concede there was another two marking contests where he didn't go when he should have. I reckon it is an instinct thing and related to basketball, where he is looking for the ball to spill.

Anyway not great but as i say he he was pretty aggressive in other contests and without looking at the stats is suspect he had more hard ball gets and tackles than a few of his less scrutinised team mates.

[DeeSpencer 25,767]

I do too. And whilst Deespicables post is well reasoned'i think it is wrong on at least one count - and a crucial one at that. From dees post:

'It has everything to do with the fact that once the errors were made (and every player makes errors) that he didn't get mega-aggressive and try to make amends. He internalised and went back into his shell even more'

I disagree. I thought he def came out after quarter time fiercer. He laid a couple of really god tackles and committed to the ball. This is reflected in the stats that Bossdog posted that showed many of his possessions were contested. As is his norm he also was involved in a number of our goals and in a low scoring game this involvement was crucial. Roos said as much (though people tend to disregard his positive comments about Watts - what would he know?)

Yes his dropped mark costs us a goal and momentum but i don't reckon he dropped it because he was worried about getting hit. He just dropped it. I'll concede there was another two marking contests where he didn't go when he should have. I reckon it is an instinct thing and related to basketball, where he is looking for the ball to spill.

Anyway not great but as i say he he was pretty aggressive in other contests and without looking at the stats is suspect he had more hard ball gets and tackles than a few of his less scrutinised team mates.

That's the problem.

Despite his height we can't rely at all on Watts to make a contest in the air when required (which Dawes at least does). Nor can we rely on him to take simple marks.

So he's judged against the other small/medium forward options.

If we need a 2nd ruck, Dawes, Hogan, Garlett then that's 4 spots. There's probably only room for 2 or 3 other forwards and we need them to show defensive pressure, goal kicking, tackling, creativity, speed, midfield rotation ability, ability to work up the ground to the backline. In the greater scheme of things Watts only ticks a few of those boxes.

[binman 43,185]

That's the problem.

Despite his height we can't rely at all on Watts to make a contest in the air when required (which Dawes at least does). Nor can we rely on him to take simple marks.

So he's judged against the other small/medium forward options.

If we need a 2nd ruck, Dawes, Hogan, Garlett then that's 4 spots. There's probably only room for 2 or 3 other forwards and we need them to show defensive pressure, goal kicking, tackling, creativity, speed, midfield rotation ability, ability to work up the ground to the backline. In the greater scheme of things Watts only ticks a few of those boxes.

Yes fair points.

But i'd much rather have Watts than Dawes, even with Dawes greater intensity and pack crashing ability. Dawes had a great pre season. His best for years he reckons. He had his game back to get into the swing of things. Yes the weather didn't suit but he took no pack marks at all and as far as i can recall not one goal assist or score involvement. And i bet Watts had more contested possessions and tackles (i hope im right). He also gets up and down the ground whereas Dawes lumbers and has a turning circle of the QE.

I reckon Watts ticks more of your boxes than Dawes, indeed i reckon he ticks them all

[WhyAlwaysMe 237]

No Point discussing Watts & Dawes, Roos doesn't have the balls to drop either, he will only make the forced change so its Gawn Spencer or Pedo, from them l'll go Gawn.

Spencer won't ever make it, Pedo not suitable at the moment, Gawn will get better & usually plays good 1st up, & i like his head.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

No Point discussing Watts & Dawes, Roos doesn't have the balls to drop either, he will only make the forced change so its Gawn Spencer or Pedo, from them l'll go Gawn.

Spencer won't ever make it, Pedo not suitable at the moment, Gawn will get better & usually plays good 1st up, & i like his head.

If frost provides ruck relief and a tall forward option then surely gawn or fitzy is ample replacement unless we are too tall

[FireOath 290]

I'd like to see Pedobear to come in for Frost. Brayshaw to start, JKH as sub.

[PaulRB 6,393]

No Point discussing Watts & Dawes, Roos doesn't have the balls to drop either, he will only make the forced change so its Gawn Spencer or Pedo, from them l'll go Gawn.

Spencer won't ever make it, Pedo not suitable at the moment, Gawn will get better & usually plays good 1st up, & i like his head.

Its not a matter of "Roos not having the balls to drop them"... it's an issue of us not having better players to replace them with in the structure Roos is building.

Our talls in Casey are ALL worse players than Watts and DAwes and have been demonstrably so for years.

[DeeSpencer 25,767]

Its not a matter of "Roos not having the balls to drop them"... it's an issue of us not having better players to replace them with in the structure Roos is building.

Our talls in Casey are ALL worse players than Watts and DAwes and have been demonstrably so for years.

See that's where I want to make the distinction.

I don't think we have a better 2 key forward than Dawes. I don't think we have a better 2nd ruck than whoever comes in for Frost. Using Dawes as the 2nd ruck is possible but not ideal.

Watts though, has no real bearing on either. He is a forward who can lead well at times but in no way is he a tall marking player. Bringing in Michie to the midfield mix and using Brayshaw and vandenBerg forward more might be better than playing Watts. Both of those 2 have taken as many strong grabs in 3 games than Watts does is 10.

[Gator 17,386]

...

There is no player I love watching more...

That's a very considered post, but this bit caught my eye. When I'm travelling to the ground I'm excited about Hogan and seeing a young talent like Brayshaw start his career, but Watts never crosses my mind.

I find not an ounce of joy in his play. He was great against the Suns, which I was grateful for, but he doesn't register with me as a player I'm excited to watch.

Edited April 20, 2015 by ProDee

[PaulRB 6,393]

See that's where I want to make the distinction.

I don't think we have a better 2 key forward than Dawes. I don't think we have a better 2nd ruck than whoever comes in for Frost. Using Dawes as the 2nd ruck is possible but not ideal.

Watts though, has no real bearing on either. He is a forward who can lead well at times but in no way is he a tall marking player. Bringing in Michie to the midfield mix and using Brayshaw and vandenBerg forward more might be better than playing Watts. Both of those 2 have taken as many strong grabs in 3 games than Watts does is 10.

The amount of total Cr4p pedalled about Jack Watts, to succurs some teen crush gone wrong gives me the tom-[censored].

Stats from the three games... Vs Jacks

Watts - 16 marks - 1 contested - 4 inside 50

Brayshaw - 7 marks - 1 contested - 1 inside 50

Vanden Berg - 8 marks - 2 contested - 2 inside 50

So it would be accurate to say "Jack Watts has had more marks and more marks inside 50 than both Brayshaw and VandenBerg COMBINED in the three matches this year."

Buts lets not let reality get in the way of your tedious witch hunt.

[watchtheeyes 1,420]

Watts bashing is an inevitability on this site PaulRB. I was at the game in Adelaide and the invective that was repeatedly directed his way by some d!ckheads (supposedly Melbourne supporters) was nothing short of shameful.

My heart sank like everyone else when he dropped those marks and found myself cursing him, but I also yelled out congratulations when he skilfully handed off the ball inside 50 after being outmanned by 2 crows later in the game.

Single events seem to colour many people's opinions of his game.

There is no way in hell Watts will be dropped for this game.

[Gator 17,386]

The amount of total Cr4p pedalled about Jack Watts, to succurs some teen crush gone wrong gives me the tom-[censored].

Stats from the three games... Vs Jacks

Watts - 16 marks - 1 contested - 4 inside 50

Brayshaw - 7 marks - 1 contested - 1 inside 50

Vanden Berg - 8 marks - 2 contested - 2 inside 50

So it would be accurate to say "Jack Watts has had more marks and more marks inside 50 than both Brayshaw and VandenBerg COMBINED in the three matches this year."

Buts lets not let reality get in the way of your tedious witch hunt.

You do realise Brayshaw has played 6 quarters and Watts 12 ? Brayshaw is in his first year and Watts his 7th ? And if you extrapolate those numbers Brayshaw would be virtually level pecking ? Do you want tackles brought into the equation.

More importantly, what are your thoughts about former topline players that think Watts should be demoted for his timid displays ?

[Gator 17,386]

My heart sank like everyone else when he dropped those marks and found myself cursing him, but I also yelled out congratulations when he skilfully handed off the ball inside 50 after being outmanned by 2 crows later in the game.

That was his most insipid and infuriating play of the lot. He luckily got the ball and dished off a handball, but his weak effort in that contest summed up his insipid 6+ years.