Training - Friday 9th January, 2015

[Beats 190]

This is my smokey for 2015 - I think he'll be okay....

Will improve outta sight, because he's got good coaches behind him and takes feedback very, very well.

I like Bail and think he will keep his place in the team, but I'm not sure where the improvement comes from?

Can't see him getting much more midfield time (although his first quarter in the Adelaide win was impressive). His tank has always been right up there (vaguely remember he represented Aus in junior athletic for middle distance running), so can't see much improvement there.

If he can add more penetration to his kicking maybe he could become a damaging outside player?

[dazzledavey36 54,261]

Misleading stat.

Do you ever think that due to a player - (in this case McKenzie) - being aware of his weakness at a given skill, (in this case kicking) he will always go a safe/short/backward option for fear of making a mistake which will lift his disposal efficiency making this stat look awfully silly without context?

I can assure you that neither McKenzie nor Bail would still be on the list had our club not been so mismanaged in all areas over the past near decade.

Again, misleading.

Your training reports are fascinating. I enjoy reading them. But when it comes to objectively analyzing and critiquing players in which you have developed personal relationships with, it's becomes impossible for you to do.

Of course as you say, there are those on this forum who perhaps completely write off/slag off players and the club unfairly. But there are also those in-between who know that once certain players are pushed out of the side or moved on from the club, it'll be further evidence that the playing list is becoming stronger.

Your care for each player on a personal level is endearing, but it stops you from seeing the bigger picture. Of course coaches know which individuals need to improve in certain areas of their game. Of course those individuals themselves know that there are areas of their game that need improving.

Of all clubs within the AFL we're the one that has lacked the most talent and depth for years now. That is a result of having drafted and developed so poorly over the same time period. Which is a result of having the worst playing leaders, coaches and administrators within the AFL over the same time period.

Do you not think that they're the reasons we've had players like McKenzie, Bail, Nicholson, Evans etc on our list for so long? Nicholson and Evans are gone. Why? Because we have now added talent and depth, which is a result of having competent on-field leaders, coaches, recruiters and admin. That will also continue next year. And whilst Jordie will be trying as hard as he can to improve areas of his game with coaches who will be working just as hard with him, the reality is he will not be on our list for much longer. And that is because he does not add enough at AFL level. Neither myself or any other Melbourne supporter needs to be an AFL qualified coach to be able to make that call. Nor do I need a print out of his kicking efficiency average from last year. It's the ability to critically analyze in an objective manner.

Best post for the year so far

Bravo

[drdrake 3,160]

JKH was a big surprise and good on him, with the addition of Garlett I have put him for a majority of the season in the VFL but he is very good on the training track and this will work in his favour, although i still prefer Kent.

I agree with this, I reckon his biggest asset will be his ability to work hard both ways and sustain his run. More importantly he is able to spend time in the midfield and have the running capacity to do this. Give him a couple of years and I see him as an outside wingman, him on one side Stretch on the other

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

His kicking is still a concern for me.

Not sure if im alone in thinking this, but his biggest issue is that he as a player is too comfortable going onto his opposite foot (left) and often his errors come from this. I would like to see him take the game on more and run hard at his preffered foot meaning that he can use this more often.

[rpfc 28,261]

I will simply agree that Disposal Efficiency is a misleading stat.

If Player A has 5 kicks that are under no pressure and are looking backwards or sideways - and he hits his targets - he will have a 100% DE.

But does it necessarily compute that that player has good skills?

What if a player handballs it every time but it is to players that are under pressure or in the wrong position - he has hit his target though, and also is rewarded with a DE of 100%.

When it comes to stats - and this reminds me of another thread where someone lost their minds a little about this - you can't just pluck numbers and extrapolate without proper analysis and without dealing with contrary opinions.

Subjective truth is an antithetical statement and that's what stats lead us to.

Love them, don't trust them.

[rjay 24,870]

There are plenty of players who retire at that age as their bodies cannot cope with the pressures of AFL. It's unlikely, but not beyond the realms of possibility. It's a long bow to draw I admit, I would think he'll go via free agency rather than retire - he's been one of my favourite players throughout the shizen years. Would like for him to stay in the 22, but it will be tough for him to do so.

To elaborate on my thinking - He's behind Mcdonald, Frost and Dunn for tall defender spots. Jetta now owns the lockdown small defender spot. Grimes/ Howe/ Lumumba are ahead of him for the HBF/ mid size defender roles. I have no idea where Hunt and Stretch sit, but it's been touted that they will start off a HBF when they play 1sts (likely to be years away though).

As such, in a fully fit team he is probably in the emergencies/ same boat as Terlich. Dunn is possibly the only player from those I've listed who may retire/ leave before Garland, as such the picture doesn't get brighter for him in coming years.

If I was him and was looking to maximise my earnings/ playing time I'd be looking at other teams.

Additionally, he has a long history of injuries, he's had an extended period of being smashed at the dees, he had a poor year last year (albeit coming back from injury) and according to reports his pre-season hasn't been as stellar as others so far.

I don't think anyone is necessarily a lock in that group at the moment although I would concede McDonald as one of the defenders, 'H' may well play mid but if played as a back he would be another. Howe could play wing, forward or back.

The other places are up for grabs and Garland has the unique ability to play short, tall and mid.

I can't think of plenty of players who give the game away at 26 - 27 unless they have big off field issues, no other club is interested or they have a major injury. Garland doesn't fall into any of these categories.

He would be a great get as a free agent but I hope he stays.

[binman 42,641]

This is my smokey for 2015 - I think he'll be okay....

Will improve outta sight, because he's got good coaches behind him and takes feedback very, very well.

I agree. His sort of repeat, gut running capacity is absolutely crucial to the Roos game plan and as has been the case already he remain part of Roosy's team. I agree he has limitations but i reckon he is underrated.

[jumbo returns 6,737]

I like Bail and think he will keep his place in the team, but I'm not sure where the improvement comes from?

Can't see him getting much more midfield time (although his first quarter in the Adelaide win was impressive). His tank has always been right up there (vaguely remember he represented Aus in junior athletic for middle distance running), so can't see much improvement there.

If he can add more penetration to his kicking maybe he could become a damaging outside player?

Yep - agree....he has the ability to run hard and make space. Also, he does the disciplined stuff.

His kicking isn't too bad, but as M_M said, his left foot passing is too blasé and not skilled enough.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

Who is going to volunteer to tell Daniel Cross to his face that he is going to retire at the end of the year

To all the posters who don't get it, the club has 40 odd players on it's list, they put themselves through hell both physically and mentally to stay on that list, whilst they are on that list, they will have my support.

I would respect some of the posters on here a bit more if they could walk up to Jordie McKenzie and tell him to his face that his kicking is poor, but it is quite easy to hide behind a keyboard. I have had a couple of chats with him, discussing where he thinks he needs to improve to stay on the list and he is very honest with his answers, last year he told me Roos had said he was too one dimensional and needed to change, this pre season I am seeing that change at training

As for Garland, he is now back in full training, and has looked really good again in the last couple of weeks

Edited January 9, 2015 by The Devil Inside

[HEMLOCK 39]

How did Trenners go?

[Lucifers Hero 39,585]

Still one of the best looking roosters goin' around.

From this female's view Dom beats Bernie by a country mile...

...judging by the number of posters who have had 'man crushes' on Dom they might share this view

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

Re Bail, there was a drill today were the big forwards were running patterns to leave one side of the fifty empty, this was for Garlett, Bail, JKH, Harmes and a couple of others to run into, hopefully unnoticed

Another point for those that keep asking about him, it looks like Jayden Hunt is going to be a defender, he worked with that group when the training broke into those groups, and yes Lumumba was with the midfield again

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

From this female's view Dom beats Bernie by a country mile...

...judging by the number of posters who have had 'man crushes' on Dom they might share this view

My lovely lady thinks Viv Michie has got them both covered, Dom keeps trying to grow a beard, not impressed with it, patchy

[jumbo returns 6,737]

From this female's view Dom beats Bernie by a country mile...

...judging by the number of posters who have had 'man crushes' on Dom they might share this view

My lovely lady thinks Viv Michie has got them both covered, Dom keeps trying to grow a beard, not impressed with it, patchy

Mrs JR llooovveess Bern - hasn't had a crush on any Dees' player since Tingay.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Not sure if im alone in thinking this, but his biggest issue is that he as a player is too comfortable going onto his opposite foot (left) and often his errors come from this. I would like to see him take the game on more and run hard at his preffered foot meaning that he can use this more often.

A lot of Melbourne players are guilty of this, great point.

[Gorgoroth 12,921]

I would respect some of the posters on here a bit more if they could walk up to Jordie McKenzie and tell him to his face that his kicking is poor, but it is quite easy to hide behind a keyboard

I would have no problem saying it to his face. Seriously what is he going to do? Punch me... Wow.

It's not the 80's where they are scary violent men.

I have no desire to ever speak to the players, but if it ever come up in a situation I would have no problem giving my opinion.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,350]

Yes I'm afraid to say some do, it makes them feel better, the players and the coaches all know where a player needs to improve, if they don't they are moved on, as Bail, Terlich, McKenzie etc are still on the list this year, means that the coaches believe they should be there

18 clubs + we've delisted our quota over the last couple of seasons,possibly best of the worst, well know soon enough. Please don't forget were still 17th. Edited January 9, 2015 by Al's Demons

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,350]

With saying that, I didn't ever see you speaking up at AGM's or putting yourself forward to assist the club, I attended a workshop recently and when asked for words that sprung to mind with MFC, I said whingers, and was howled down, then the whingeing started, but nobody came up with solutions as per the norm

I am a realist, the club fell in a hole of it's own making, and somebody kicked the ladder away, we have now found the ladder, we just have to climb out of the hole

The coaches do know better, that is why they are an AFL coach, and most if not all on here are not

Some on here can't even form their own opinions, I listen to or read a piece from one of the so called experts in the media and the next day it's quoted on here as fact

Jordie's disposal efficiency is around the normal for most solid AFL players over their career which is 75 to 80%, if it wasn't he wouldn't be on the list

Actually to make a point re the efficiency, Nev Jetta's was always in the 90% region yet he was delisted, why because his body continually let him down, let's see what McKenzie can do with a full preseason

Whats the breakdown kicks v handballs?

[Maggot 1977 263]

If I lived in Melb my oath I would be telling him (Jordie) his short comings. Love your report Saty but "put themselves through hell both physically and mentally" give your head a wobble !! Hell is beating cancer or living through childhood abuse not being on an AFL list for 5 years & getting paid a Motza to live out your dreams.

[Pennant St Dee 13,113]

Who is going to volunteer to tell Daniel Cross to his face that he is going to retire at the end of the year

To all the posters who don't get it, the club has 40 odd players on it's list, they put themselves through hell both physically and mentally to stay on that list, whilst they are on that list, they will have my support.

I would respect some of the posters on here a bit more if they could walk up to Jordie McKenzie and tell him to his face that his kicking is poor, but it is quite easy to hide behind a keyboard. I have had a couple of chats with him, discussing where he thinks he needs to improve to stay on the list and he is very honest with his answers, last year he told me Roos had said he was too one dimensional and needed to change, this pre season I am seeing that change at training

As for Garland, he is now back in full training, and has looked really good again in the last couple of weeks

Saty it's what makes coaches/footy managers and it's why they get paid so much. You need to separate friendship and admiration when making a decision on the team moving forward

They will constantly be speaking with Cross through the year asking him what he thinks, they will discuss the list moving forward and if he thinks and they think he can go one more and where they see him in 2016.

Crossy absolutely looks after himself and is the ultimate professional, if anyone can maintain that level of fitness and go again it's him. I believe he is such a professional that he will know when the time is right, he knew he had more left when the Dogs called time on him and IMO it wasn't out of being selfish that he decided to play on, he knows his body and he knew he had more left in the tank.

Will he play beyond this year maybe, but speaking from experience as a player and a follower for many years when the end comes sometimes it comes very quickly

[bing181 9,193]

For an example back in 2009 majority on here wanted Daniel Talia drafted at pick 11 as we were desperate for tall after taking two mids with our first two selections.

You pull out an example from 6 years ago to illustrate your point?

[hardtack 10,514]

How did Trenners go?

He's on a roll.

[Lucifers Hero 39,585]

My lovely lady thinks Viv Michie has got them both covered, Dom keeps trying to grow a beard, not impressed with it, patchy

Mrs JR llooovveess Bern - hasn't had a crush on any Dees' player since Tingay.

Just goes to show...all in the eye-of-the-beholder!

If we had more than a handful of female contributors on DL I would ask RR (or RR sub) to do a survey of the sexiest Dee's player!!

In the meantime, I will keep Dom as my fave but adore any player in the red and blue!

[Arrow 1,257]

I would have no problem saying it to his face. Seriously what is he going to do? Punch me... Wow.

It's not the 80's where they are scary violent men.

I have no desire to ever speak to the players, but if it ever come up in a situation I would have no problem giving my opinion.

I know, what a stupid thing to say that you'd respect the ones who could say it to their face. They play a professional sport that is funded by supporters who make them more money the more the game is discussed. They have a choice to give it in if they're uncomfortable with being judged on their performance. They're paid handsomely to compensate for the fact we get the chance to critique. As a stakeholder in my team, and this game as a whole I will continue to press forward my opinion on each and every player with no consideration for whether another poster/person 'respects' me. As long as I'm financial backing this team, I'm also entitled to that say.

By TDIs reasoning, if he's a shareholder in a company, any of the bosses who rock up to work and try their asses off, he won't say a bad word about. They can suck but we, as other shareholders can't vote them out because none of us have ever done their job so god forbid us comment on their ability. It doesn't take Einstein to work out which one of us is misguided.

[Lucifers Hero 39,585]

By TDIs reasoning, if he's a shareholder in a company, any of the bosses who rock up to work and try their asses off, he won't say a bad word about. They can suck but we, as other shareholders can't vote them out because none of us have ever done their job so god forbid us comment on their ability. It doesn't take Einstein to work out which one of us is misguided.

By TDI's reasoning, no player would ever be delisted and all 40 would be top 22 players.