Post match discussion - Round 20

[Radar Detector 1,347]

I've said similar in a previous thread but Jack Watts has very similar strengths (and contest related stats) to Jack Gunston. He is not the Reiwoldt type that we were crying out for but will be very effective when we have a few others in the team who can kick like him. He will only need the ball a few times close to goal to influence games but won't win many in really contested situations. He needs team-mates to be able to hit him up.

The good news is not every player in the AFL needs to be a contested animal and the reality is every team has players that rely on others to get them the ball. Even Hawthorn.

[P-man 13,366]

You don't think Watts works hard?

Perhaps you should ask Roos at a presser about the workload that is asked of a HFF in today's game and how much Watts is doing to be in a position to be not kicked to properly in the forward line, to having little help on centre wing, to be pushed off the footy on the HBF.

And you are looking for 'indications'? You have already made your mind up on Watts - this smiling flap is just a selective and sideways argument to hang him further.

Smilegate might be a non-issue, but Watts is no workhorse. There was an instance where he was coming off the halfback line, handballed it off, and then just casually jogged ahead and eventually stuck his arms out. Other players sprint to create an option. Watts barely breaks into a sweat.

The amount of times you see him jogging around nonchalantly is alarming for a player at the elite level. Couple that with his complete lack of intensity and hardness and you have a passenger. When his decisions then also become questionable (e.g. balking in front of goal and handballing to Viney who gets tackled) he goes from partial liability to total liability.

How much longer are his efforts going to be defended? ANOTHER 6 years? All these excuses of "he's too smart to run there" or "he's been played in too many positions" have run dry. If he plays like this for another couple of years, his worth on the trade table will be next to nothing.

Edited August 9, 2014 by P-man

[jackaub 1,402]

His disposal efficiency is so high because he is a very good kick and often handpasses when under the slightest amount of pressure. That means he rarely turns it over, but he rarely takes any risks with his disposal.

And it's what he does when he DOESN'T have the ball that's got me in such a tizzy. I reckon Hawthorn kicked three goals in the first quarter alone as a direct result of Jack's poor defensive pressure.

He is a vital part of our zone defence when he plays in our d50, but he doesn't have the urgency required to apply physical pressure to his nearest opponent when he has to, which means that whoever it is (whether it be Isaac Smith or anyone else) has ample time to dice us up.

Yes Chook you are right ! Saw it unfold form the wing ,missed tackles mostly and poor recovery from weak contests .The old people around me just shook their heads in disbelief how weak he looked

[djr 1,597]

I believe Jack Watts' biggest issue is his level of fitness. He doesn't have a big tank and therefore looks to have a breather more often than others on the ground. What we see is a guy that appears to be ambling around the periphery of many contests and not participating. I don't think Jack has an attitude problem. He tries as hard as anyone else. If you play this game and you are not fit enough to do your role then you are not going to do the gut running or the tackling and other defensive things that the team expects you to do.

That said, everyone knows how skilful Jack is. In today's modern football his skills are a perfect match. I would not be pushing him out the door at the end of the year and I would be shocked if Roos is even considering this. What I believe the coaching staff will be thinking is to put Watts through an exhausting long pre-season to build up his fitness to a level where he will have the confidence to run and compete.

We have such a talent here that the club has to ensure that they can realise that talent before any discussions to trade him. If it only requires a huge pre-season then its certainly worth the gamble.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

A human that smiles when he greets a friend - imagine that. What a disgrace.

[Redleg 41,464]

Next week will be a big game.

Will be interesting to c if we play with the same side and effort as in today's game.

I really don't want to lose to those numb nuts tbh.

You won't. Wait till you see their side. They want Petracca. A win for us is assured as in the Kreuzer cup.

[Redleg 41,464]

I believe Jack Watts' biggest issue is his level of fitness. He doesn't have a big tank and therefore looks to have a breather more often than others on the ground. What we see is a guy that appears to be ambling around the periphery of many contests and not participating. I don't think Jack has an attitude problem. He tries as hard as anyone else. If you play this game and you are not fit enough to do your role then you are not going to do the gut running or the tackling and other defensive things that the team expects you to do.

That said, everyone knows how skilful Jack is. In today's modern football his skills are a perfect match. I would not be pushing him out the door at the end of the year and I would be shocked if Roos is even considering this. What I believe the coaching staff will be thinking is to put Watts through an exhausting long pre-season to build up his fitness to a level where he will have the confidence to run and compete.

We have such a talent here that the club has to ensure that they can realise that talent before any discussions to trade him. If it only requires a huge pre-season then its certainly worth the gamble.

He is a very frustrating player to us especially as he was the number 1 pick.

I thought his first quarter was much harder at the ball than I have seen all year. Then later he lapsed back into nonchalance.

He is interesting. Playing for hawthorn with their delivery he would kick 50 goals a year without changing too much and still having the same amount of possessions.

He has so much talent and so little desperation for the ball and the contest.

[old dee 23,872]

You won't. Wait till you see their side. They want Petracca. A win for us is assured as in the Kreuzer cup.

Then take the win Redleg

Kreuzer did not turn out anything wonderful.

Win win win it is the attitude that counts not the draft position

[Jack Jack 415]

I wasn't looking forward to heading down to the game yesterday. On the way I was thinking of the Aristotle quote that sits on Misson's desk "We are what we repeatedly do", ergo the Dees are a bunch of losers (and, by extention, I'm a masochist for going to all the Dees V Hawks games). But I have to say that was one of the best, recent efforts, against the Hawks I can remember. As much as I hate losing, it was a fairly respectable performance by the boys.

Starting the first 5 odd minutes with the scoreboard basically being untouched was a good start. If we'd played like we did last week, no doubt the game would have been all over by quarter time.

Nev Jetta was brilliant, must have been dirty when he was caught out in the backline with a dodgy pass.

Skills weren't great again, but I think the ins and outs certainly improved that area of our game. Forward entries are still pretty woeful. Over possessing the ball in our forward 50 is making me lose my hair at an alarming rate. And I don't think Dawes is the greatest contested mark going around, but with the high, slow entries giving the defenders so much time to zone off their opponents, it basically reduces his chances to 0.

A few too many easy goals out the back, but the backline is still a work in progress. Just that couple of extra % improvement should see a few of those easy goals dry up.

Somewhat relieved it's over and that we came to play.

[Chook 15,022]

You don't think Watts works hard?

Perhaps you should ask Roos at a presser about the workload that is asked of a HFF in today's game and how much Watts is doing to be in a position to be not kicked to properly in the forward line, to having little help on centre wing, to be pushed off the footy on the HBF.

And you are looking for 'indications'? You have already made your mind up on Watts - this smiling flap is just a selective and sideways argument to hang him further.

Yes, I have made up my mind on Watts. I think I have had enough time to do so. For many years I defended him, but that was out of hope more than anything.

And no, I don't think he works anywhere near as hard as he should. Perhaps he runs a lot, but he does not work hard on the physical side of his game. I'm not talking about tackling like a madman or anything; I'm simply talking about keeping your feet in a contest, halving the battles you're faced with and providing implied pressure on those around you.

Forget about my criticism of Watts smiling after a poor performance. Perhaps that is irrelevant (though taken along with everything else we see from him it does paint a picture I do not like). Focus instead on his utter lack of physical presence, and the castastrophic cascade that has on our zone defence. If even one player is seen to be unable to make a physical impact on the zone he's guarding, then every single time the ball comes near him someone from the opposing team will pick out a player who can benefit from that effective "gap" in the zone.

Time and time again Jack Watts lets his team down because he is unable to keep his opponents accountable. Players like Jordie McKenzie and even Dan Nicholson are more useful to a team in our position than players like Jack Watts (though I will admit that Watts would likely shine in a team strong enough to compensate for his utter lack of physicality).

This is a man who said "losing doesn't bother me." may have implied in an article I read a while ago that he does not hate losing as much as I believe he should. Do you think Daniel Cross feels the same way?

EDIT: Removed unsourced quotation. Fair criticism is fair.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Chook

[Nasher 33,617]

This is a man who said "losing doesn't bother me." Do you think Daniel Cross feels the same way?

Please do not put in quote marks words that are not direct quotes.

[sue 9,145]

Amazing how every second thread degenerates into Watts bashing/defence. Just as well join the fray.

They'd be a lot less bashing if he hadn't been taken at pick 1 and hailed as the messiah. They'd probably be a few of his critics saying they'd wish the rest of the team had his skills. Disappointment makes people bitter.

[Chook 15,022]

Please do not put in quote marks words that are not direct quotes.

Point taken. Mind addressing the others?

[Nasher 33,617]

Point taken. Mind addressing the others?

Nah not really. As has been my position in this thread all along, I only take exception when the criticism becomes unfair and unreasonable. On the bits that are fair and reasonable (if not debatable) I have no comment.

[chook fowler 19,551]

think Watts seems to lack upper body strength. His tackles don't stick and players break away from him easily. Needs to pump more iron.

[rjay 25,093]

I'd say the 4 steps to beat Hawthorn (which Geelong have done more than anyone) are:

- Win the contested ball - Pass

- Rebound out from their forward line pressure - I'd give this an ok. We were never going to do it but we gave it a go

- Test their defenders one on one - not really. But Maxy Gawn gave us something. The likes of Dawes, Frawley, Kent had moments, but too often we could only get it to 60m out

- Mess with their ball movement particularly forcing pressure to them at half back - fail. But there were a couple of patches where we pushed up and hunted them instead of dropping back. A patch in the second quarter threatened circle work and whilst they took the foot off the gas at least we didnt keel over.

This is the big one Geelong do, they put a lot of pressure on the kicker and force a lot of their lefties to their right foot. This really messes with them.

[Deecisive 1,709]

Every player is different, look at how riley, Jetta and Dawes tackle why does the whole team not do that, because they are all different and have different approaches. If you look at lack of tackles have a look at some of our backline players who rarely tackle and they have the ball down their end more so that our forwards and wingers but they are usually pretty effective. Tackling is important but so is getting the ball and using it properly Watts did that about 17 times yesterday also 6th most contested possession winner, so he is in there winning the ball. The fact that he seems to do some things so effortlessly makes you want to see him do more.

[PJ_12345 1,098]

Give Watts a break, he is running all over the place trying to give leads and get into the game, only 6 players had more possessions than him, only 6 players had more contested possessions than him. Top for delivery efficiency. What does he have to do before people give him a break.

Maybe keep his feet or stick a tackle.

He cost us two goals in the first term not doing both.

Out of curiosity, were you at the game?

The biggest issue with Watts isn't what he does with the ball, but what he does in the background and when he doesn't have it.

[jazza 1,323]

Maybe keep his feet or stick a tackle.

He cost us two goals in the first term not doing both.

Out of curiosity, were you at the game?

The biggest issue with Watts isn't what he does with the ball, but what he does in the background and when he doesn't have it.

Yeah,but but did you see his 3rd Q against poooooooort.

Hes put together 3 of those Quarters this year.{juuust fantastic}

IM one thats willing to give him another 3/4 seasons to find his feet and drag us up the greasy ladder with his skill and bravado.

[NowWeKnow 130]

We beat the Hawks in clearances (45 - 40) both from the centre and at stoppages! Pfff - after last weeks shellacing who would of thought that? .Go Dees.

[3183 Dee 2,907]

Then take the win Redleg

Kreuzer did not turn out anything wonderful.

Win win win it is the attitude that counts not the draft position

Totally agree - although in light of all the tanking biz, I'm not sure how easy it will be for them to leave out their main players. However, we need to go out hammer and tongs to give them a hiding, both physically and on the scoreboard.

[Grint 30]

Maybe because I knew we were going to lose as oppose to last week when I thought we would win then had to see us choke, or perhaps it was because I only watched bits an pieces of the second half but yesterday was not as frustrating as last week by a long way. I felt our ball movement was better... And even very good in a few patches (just couldn't finish the job a lot of the time), our skills didn't seem nearly as deplorable (lots of mistakes still) and we seemed to be prepared to take it up to the hawks than at least I expected - good games from a few players... Thought Howe was good, Jetta stood out for me again and with the exception of the ruck contest Gawn was taking strong marks everywhere and chipped in with a couple of goals. Was happy with Barry (will learn from the shellacking he copped in the second 1/4, thought the endeavour from most players was there from start to finish.

I thought there were far more positives out of this game than there were in last weeks debacle.

[Adam The God 30,420]

The stats were pretty even on clearances, stoppages, contested poss and HOs.

But, Roughhead and Breust score 8 goals between them; Gawn our only multiple goal scorer...

We will no doubt be better when Hogan gets back, but need to recruit one more KPF.

I agree to an extent. Our disposal needs to improve across the ground and this will allow us to take more risks and move the ball quickly. That's where you get uncontested possessions and this is an area that they dominated us in. It is the true indicator of the side who is generally on top. I'd argue that our midfield's inability to lock Hawthorn down and get back into defensive areas, due to their superior skill level and therefore ball movement, resulted in many of Hawthorn's goals. The defence could do very little with the ball streaming forward so quickly and placed to the advantage of the forward continuously.

[Guest]

I didn't watch the game (I was drinking at a pub without Foxtel) but it does sound like a typical Melbourne effort under Paul Roos.

Resistance was put up but at the end of the day, our execution was not there.

I am a little less filthy when I hear that we didn't completely pantsed.
I realize how far off the pace we really are at the end of the day.

I was always taught that if you put the effort in there is nothing you can't do. It sounds like yesterday's game disproves that theory.
We still need to ensure that at the end of the season that there are trades/delistings and this time, it's not just fringe types or players at the end of their careers. Two of our Jacks (Grimes and Watts) need to be considered as serious trade bait.

[titan_uranus 25,045]

Another standard MFC 2014 performance. Very good inside, clearances and contested possessions either in our favour or close enough, and manful work all day from the stronger bodied types. However, far too slow with ball in hand, way too many errors, and passengers all afternoon.

Jetta was amazing. Simply amazing. I'm proud to have an AA-level small defender in our side, one who has done it tough (being re-rookied) and has made it work.

Very, very pleased to see Gawn bring his VFL form to the AFL. He's clearly worked on his marking and his body-work in the forward line and it paid off. He had his defenders beaten so many times yesterday. He knows where to lead, too. Kicking at goal needs work, but with another pre-season and more fitness, we may have found a quality weapon.

Cross added so much to our midfield. Tyson was great again in the clearances. N Jones was good, but he can do better. Recently I've felt he's been trying to get the dinky out the back kick/handpass too much and running himself into trouble a bit more.

Barry showed enough to suggest he can be a long-term player. Michie also played a lot better than we've seen.

At the other end of the spectrum, JKH was terrible - didn't look interested at any point in the day. Pathetic display from him. M Jones was also rubbish.