She's at it again

[dee-luded 2,959]

Lets just hope he turns up sober

if the kidneys are on the way & the liver soso, he may never get so ber And you may not want to see anyone like that.

[dee-luded 2,959]

true, they all did it much more cleverly than us though.

exactly TSFKA. exactly, & everyone really knows this, even if they don't like to admit it.

[P-man 13,366]

I don't blame supporters for cynicism about Toumpas after witnessing an astounding number of high draft picks that have gone on to do pretty much nothing. To rub salt in the wound, they've had to watch the players taken immediately after him go from strength to strength and now be rated as future superstars of the AFL.

But if you focus on the fact there are new people at the club who are responsible for his development, he is still a highly rated Pick 4 in just his second year. There's still a lot to be optimistic about when it comes to Jimmy Toumpas.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I always love the posts that say we stuffed up the recruiting big time, every club does it, unfortunately we are an easy target, here are a few top 20 picks at other clubs from 2007..

Bulldogs Jarrad Grant , Ayce Cordy, Christian Howard

Sydney Patrick Vezpremi, Lewis Johnston

West Coast Tony Notte, Tom Swift

Geelong Mitch Brown

Carlton Kane Lucas and I would throw in Kreuzer

Fremantle Jayden Pitt

And that's just a quick look, I am sure I could find more, Bulldogs haven't exactly been setting the world on fire

Is it at all possible Satyr, that this club has More 'perfectionists' than most clubs ?????

[Chook 15,012]

I think the thing being overlooked is that with this terrible list we have still won 4 games against non expansion sides, and been infront in the last quarter in another 6-7

I am very confident there is no issue with the game plan, the personel will be changed up a bit depending on who can deliver consistently on their role

I really want to see what this new development team can do with Trengove, Watts and Toumpas over a couple of years, they could be nothing, or they could be superstars

Watts will continue to be nothing until he has a team capable of giving him the ball. Trengove will continue to be nothing until he gets his pace back. Toumpas should be in the team (barring his illness). What he'll become is anyone's guess.

[Coq au vin 755]

if the kidneys are on the way & the liver soso, he may never get so ber And you may not want to see anyone like that.

I don't blame supporters for cynicism about Toumpas after witnessing an astounding number of high draft picks that have gone on to do pretty much nothing. To rub salt in the wound, they've had to watch the players taken immediately after him go from strength to strength and now be rated as future superstars of the AFL.

But if you focus on the fact there are new people at the club who are responsible for his development, he is still a highly rated Pick 4 in just his second year. There's still a lot to be optimistic about when it comes to Jimmy Toumpas.

yeah possibly the next Ron Barassi.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Couple of comments:

1. Caro's article is right. It's not nice but it's right as she is most times. She's been knocking us for years. We've been shocking for years.

2. Schwab, Connolly and Stynes are to blame for where we are now. They employed and maintained an understaffed and skilled FD whilst Schwabby was buying desks and building management mega-structures. Jackson cut $1.8 million from the salary budget this year and didn't impact the FD salary budget, it all came from admin. The mind boggles. And while he was doing this we employed a bloke with no experience to head recruiting when we had low picks in the most critical time of our rebuild.

3. For all I think Robbo is awful and he can't write he's right to question the Roos outburst on Sunday as is Thomas. Our skills were awful but so were Roos public comments. They were just extraordinarily awful.

4. Robbo is right. We've kicked a lower score this year on average than we did last year. FM, concentrate on defence by all means but for all the improvements this is a monumental issue.

5. The myth that it's the expansion clubs that stopped us rebuilding is dumb. There were two years of expansion drafts and we had pick 12 in each. In our two PP drafts the expansion clubs didn't get a pick.

6. The greatest failure of this club was to pick the right players.

Put in all the equalization measures you like, the club that has the best recruiting department will beat the others.

7. The over reaction to Sunday is mind boggling. We led Brisbane into the last quarter. We should have beaten PA in our match before that. We, as a supporter group, are disappointed about not winning this year - that alone is a massive improvement.

The media hysteria this week is because Roos FU his post match media conference. The match was awful, the skills were awful but it was not typical of the year to date. After PA he praised the players. After Brisbane he likened them to the worst he'd ever seen. The players don't change, their performance on the day did as did Roos'.

I like Roos but he's not above criticism. He should be taking plenty for the heat he's bought on what he knows is a playing group still struggling with the past. He achieved nothing with his performance on Sunday.

When he puts his head on the pillow at night he knows he FU very badly.

Nope. # The single biggest failure this club has, is not being able to get the right board people & administrators in place, to run the club & make the right decisions. Like employing the right footy people, & not looking after its grass roots supporters well enough.

This has allowed to club to slowly wither on the Vine. And our soil has started to lose its fertility. Whilst the rest of the Vineyard continues to grow.

[Earl Hood 6,086]

it seems a silly topic to bring up right before we apply for a priority pick, get the tanking stuff fresh in everyones mind and then ask for another pick.

I agree what is Roos doing? Does he want to draw the attention of the Gaming Commission onto us again for heavens sake. Forget 2009 that is a red herring, the scarring has occurred since 2011, 186 and the disastrous Neeld experiment.

[Macca 16,961]

Re the references to tanking by Roos ...

The first thing I thought of was how much does he know that we don't know? Also, what if what is known, is already out in the public domain (if that's true, his references to tanking are a little questionable) Tanking as a concept doesn't always produce the same sort of results - it's not one size fits all.

What if we'd picked Fyfe* and Martin instead of Scully and Trengove and in the year prior, had picked someone like Steele Sidebottom instead of Watts - that puts a whole different complexion on things. That shouldn't be interpreted as me saying we made the wrong picks - Scully, Trengove and Watts were "all the rage" at the time and besides all that, the draft is a lottery.

What I believe the real issue is that the penny is dropping for Paul - a lot of our players just aren't any good. The draft pick number next to their name confuses the whole issue. The odds of us picking up one poor player after another with our top end draft picks is quite high but not as high as some might think. Sometimes the long shot gets up and wins. A perfect storm of poor picks.

Roos will have to totally rebuild the list - he started doing that last off season but he may not have known that he was embarking on a major rebuild back then. He would have to know that now and he's probably quite glad that he's already offloaded 12 players (he did that at the end of 2013)

*Fyfe went at pick 20 in the 2009 draft. How 'bout them recruiters hey? They sure know a player when they see one.

[bing181 9,218]

It's the losing culture that needs to be acknowledged and addressed. That was more what I think Roos was referring to.

Me too. Coupled with PJ's reference to a "poison" culture.

Tanking is but one part of it, and I can't see that in what he's saying, Roos is sheeting it all back just to that.

Tanking, poor development, a lack of senior players, some bad luck (Clark, Hogan, Jurrah), a revolving door of coaches and systems ... It's going to take more than a season or two.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I havent read any of this thread past the OP and the article it links to. All I have to say is who the hell cares what some troll writes about us, her primary goal is to stir up interest, and with 5 pages of posts here you are just giving her what she wants -a reaction.

[bjDee 1,249]

Holy crap on a stick!

I just read Robbo's article on Fox Sports! I sometimes make typos when I post on here but this bloke gets paid to write!!!

There were definite articles missing, unnecessary repetitions, omission of subjects and incorrect use of commas among the mistakes I found. This bloke just needs to scan the original that was written in crayon, convert it to PDF or HTML and then slap it up on whatever News Ltd. website he deems fit.

It's like they coaxed him out of the pub with a bottle of Bowler's Run cab sav, threw a suit on him and told him to write an article.

We'll see how Roos Roos' venting turns out, Chook.

The problem with Neeld was that he tried that before he had proven he could coach.

Roos CAN coach. That has been proven. He has also waited 18 games (plenty of time to make a judgement) to make such a statement, not one game.

I do worry nonetheless that reality may have punched him in the face and he isn't reacting well. As I have said earlier, he never rebuilt Sydney. He more did major renovations. The Swans were a finals team the year before he arrived and were looking at a potential dip that never eventuated. That potential dip was bought brought about by Rocket Eade getting stale in his surroundings. Rocket wasn't a bad coach. In fact, he was a bloody good one (as he would prove again at the Dogs). He had just gotten overly conservative and it was time to move on. Roosy took a good team and turned them into a great one.

Now, he has a woeful team and he is hopefully laying the foundations to make them a great one. I really do hope that this talk at the start about how 'the worse it sounded, the more interested I got' wasn't for a soundbite because as any long term supporter of this club knows, it really was that bad last year.

Hey Col B F,

Just a bit of fun. Sometimes I think I should have (should of?) been an English teacher too (to? two?).

Cheers,

bj.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

on footy classifieds the show after st kilda beat! freo, hutchy said that they should not win another game for the rest of the year and everybody on the panel agreed thanks hello s*** so much hypocrites

[Guest]

Hey Col B F,

This is just a bit of fun. Sometimes I think I should have (should of?) been an English teacher too (to? two?).

Cheers,

bj.

I did say that I make typos/mistakes on here. If I were publishing this or giving it to students, those mistakes wouldn't exist.

I might point out for fun as well that your first sentence lacks a subject and therefore is grammatically incorrect.

[Samael 560]

Is it at all possible Satyr, that this club has More 'perfectionists' than most clubs ?????

Jayden Pitt is a very harsh call. He has a heart condition that means that he cannot play. Hardly in the same boat as the others who have had plenty of opportunities.

[Samael 560]

I havent read any of this thread past the OP and the article it links to. All I have to say is who the hell cares what some troll writes about us, her primary goal is to stir up interest, and with 5 pages of posts here you are just giving her what she wants -a reaction.

Agree why give her further oxygen.

[Lucifers Hero 39,737]

For several years (2007 to 2009) we were involved in a 'race to the bottom'. In 2009 we got 'lucky' and got the pp for Scully/Trengove. 3 years of 'loosing mentality'. New players came into a toxic environment with little development to build confidence/skills/belief.

2010 relatively uneventful but the stoush between the late Dean Bailey and the orchestrators of the 'race to the bottom' was just warming up with players caught in the middle. New players came into a toxic environment with little development to build confidence/skills/belief.

Fast Forwrad to June 2011 and the infamous 186. Players lose their beloved coach and feel incredibly guilty (for going directly to the President) and incredibly responsibile (for the 186). New players came into a toxic environment with little development to build confidence/skills/belief

Then in 2012 arrives MN. Losses started to pile up. The thrashings were happening on and off the field. New players came into a toxic environment with little development to build confidence/skills/belief. .

So while not many of the 2007-2009 players are still at the club the perpretators of the 'race to the bottom' strategy were there, right up to mid 2013. MN was still there 1 year ago.

The resultant cumulative and lingering affect of 7 years of 'losing' be it orchestrated or incompetence has left players with deep, deep scars without confidence/skills belief. It is this to which Roos was referring: The 'tanking' years were just the foundation stone for the 'we can't win' mentality.

Surely DL's (and Garry L) can see the affect 7 continuous years of rubbish has on players. It will take a while to fix it but we have turned the corner...at least the thrahings have stopped.

[Jara 1,153]

I did say that I make typos/mistakes on here. If I were publishing this or giving it to students, those mistakes wouldn't exist.

I might point out for fun as well that your first sentence lacks a subject and therefore is grammatically incorrect.

Hope my old English teacher isn't on here, but I reckon that that sentence is gramatically correct. It does have a subject, even if it's just an implied one (whatever the 'this' is referring to)

[IvanBartul13 2,564]

Couple of comments:

5. The myth that it's the expansion clubs that stopped us rebuilding is dumb. There were two years of expansion drafts and we had pick 12 in each. In our two PP drafts the expansion clubs didn't get a pick.

I don't disagree with much of what you've said, but we are clearly unlucky to have been a team at the bottom when the new franchises have come in. We would have been picking at pick 5 both the times we were down to pick 12 and we would have picked at one instead of four the year after. In the first two instances GWS and Gold Coast wouldn't have had first dibs on the best dozen players the year before. Had those clubs not been established, I'm comfortable to assume we would have drafted Dion Prestia the first year. The second year we'd be at pick 5 with a talent pool of Treloar, Shiel, Patton, Whifield, Coniglio, Tyson as the best six players. The year after, pretty confident we end up with Brad Crouch and, if not, Jaeger O'Meara. For what it's worth, I think Brad Crouch is the best young pure inside midfielder I've ever seen and if he doesn't get hurt he is going to be incredible, pretty much already is.

I don't think you can argue against the fact that we were unable to get access to the talent our ladder position deserved and as such the momentum of the rebuild was hampered and the equalisation measures designed to help us were compromised. We very realistically could have a midfield of Prestia, Crouch and Tyson (without having to have traded for him). The argument against what I've said is obviously that other clubs at the bottom would have got great players as well, but what's happened is the divide between the top clubs and the bottom clubs has been harder to bridge as the talent has been vacuumed by the new clubs. Its part of the reason why the top four this year is identical to last year. Free agency hasn't helped either because the model which generally creates older free agents is weighted towards players moving to top clubs to get success. The bottom clubs don't really want to invest in these types of players who aren't going to be around in their theoretical period of ascendancy. A more free free agency where all players at the end of the second contract (as per NFL) would result in lower clubs being able to throw serious coin at 22-23 year old players. The current system doesn't allow that to happen. It's essentially a mechanism for the Hawthorns and Geelongs of this world to have an extra kick in the last 100metres and to give the bottom clubs some draft material to assist in a rebuild.

I just think we've been genuinely unlucky as well as error prone. You mention Priority Pick years as well. The Scully/Trengove year we are also fairly unlucky it was a very weak draft. If you put a line through Dustin Martin on character concerns at that draft and there would be many that now would defend that call, there is not a player we could have realistically taken at 1 and 2, bar Ben Cunnington, who would have proven to be a better pick than Trengove - and even Cunnington is no certainty to end up a better player than Trengove - and we got a King's ransom for Scully via a mechanism that will end up helping us but also retarded the speed of our rebuild. It was an unlucky time to finish bottom and in truth the only way in that draft we could have fixed our midfied was if we had have recruited out of Western Australia better because Lewis Jetta, Nathan Fyfe and Mitch Duncan are the only midfielders in that draft that would have made any difference. Maybe because of financial constraints we couldn't scout WA as fastidiously as other clubs, who knows?

Our recruiting has been pretty poor no doubt but I do think people look at pick numbers and players and say thats a crap player for a pick a lot of the time without looking at what happened after and what was available at the actual time of the pick. For example no one mentions Ben Holland's trade much but if you look at it close, it was a genius move. The real crimes have been Pick 4 Cale Morton when Dangerfield, Rioli et cetera were available and Pick 17/19 Blease/Strauss when Shuey, Zaharakis, Beams were available. I followed the draft that year very very close and would have bet my left eye on Ashley Smith at 17 and been badly wrong there with that pick. I would have done better with the other one but its a tough science and the club has obviously made numerous poor decisions but I don't think you can hide the fact that whether by design or not the AFL has done a lot of things with its mechanisms and the bringing in of the new clubs to hinder us.

Edited August 5, 2014 by goodoil

[Guest]

Hope my old English teacher isn't on here, but I reckon that that sentence is gramatically correct. It does have a subject, even if it's just an implied one (whatever the 'this' is referring to)

I was waiting for this.

This is still an incomplete sentence as complete sentences have either a 'be' verb or an auxilliary verb in there somewhere. This construction is fine for colloquial spoken English but for written English, it is inappropriate.

But then again, this is a message board. If I was putting these posts out as official communications or getting paid for them (WYL and Old Dee could retire if they could make money off their posts) then I would make sure all the English was perfect.

You too dropped the subject as well and put a comma before the word 'but' which is entirely unnecessary as the comma has exactly the same function as the conjunction in this case.

Hang on! Why are we even having this conversation?

Edited August 6, 2014 by Colin B. Flaubert

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

The "ghosts of 2009" were out in force this day, Roosy.

[mauriesy 7,287]

i think it happens in the heat of battle. The CLUB as a whole has been that bad.

Maybe they try too hard. But it happens to often.

The scars are there. And who knows what opposition players whisper in a pack???

It all adds up

There are not many more than half a dozen players on our list who were regulars in the so-called tanking year of 2009. What's the excuse for the other 36?

[old dee 23,787]

There are not many more than half a dozen players on our list who were regulars in the so-called tanking year of 2009. What's the excuse for the other 36?

NGE!

[Ted Lasso 19,507]

The "ghosts of 2009" were out in force this day, Roosy.

Now that's just depressing to watch

[Pirlo 813]

And she is absolutely correct.