Post Match Discussion - Round 17

[jumbo returns 6,547]

Nutbean the game was well and truly over at half time.

Pretty much any half decent team knows that they will always outscore us relatively easy in the first half of a match if they put their foot down early on and go really hard at our obsessive lateral and sideways possession game in defence and across the middle of the ground when we do occasionally hit targets there. They know we are so poor at finding our way up the ground by foot, with so many clanger turnovers, that once ahead by a decent margin early (say 5 to 6 goals or so) they probably relax a touch in the second half knowing we are a non-threat and at any stage they can turn up the wick again if we do happen to get it under 4 goals or so. That's how easy we are to beat atm.

The thing is we might be ok at defending in our back half and to a lessor degree through the middle when we have our "ideal" player set-up and structure (ie., very few key players out injured, like Cross, and most in very good form like Vince, Jones and Tyson). Some of these guys able to push back and help out in defence to rebound (Vince and Tyson were very good at this earlier in the year).However, most teams know they will also win the majority of center clearances against us fairly easily. I don't believe even the best defence in the league would handle the amount of ball that comes into our defensive 50 week after week.

The bulk of the game is played in "our defensive half". There's very little overlap style gut running and quick 'play on' from our guys compared to most clubs as they seem unable or unwilling to play forward of their opponent, possibly because they don't have much faith that the next player will more than likely beat his opponent or that the guy who has the ball is likely to get accurate disposals to them for the receive...who knows? So we also don't stretch or tire out our opponents as much as other clubs by making them chase us up the field. We continually play a stop start very slow ball movement style stop giving the opponent a nice easy jog to their next set up/wall up the field or on the mark while we take forever. As you know we often just can't hit a target anyway, resulting in a turnover in the worst places on the ground and easy goals from turnovers again and again.

In short we might be fairly good at defending given the number of times the ball comes into our defensive 50, but we are also very easily defended against at the wrong end of the ground (for us), namely through the middle where the walls are built and even down back with weight of numbers as our backs get worn down with the continual entries.

We will lkeep getting smashed by anyone outside of the bottom 6 until we can find....

1. Some new on ball tallent who (collectively with say Jones, Cross, Tyson, Vince) can win more clearances than our opposition on a regular basis

2. One or two pacey/agile outside runners who can spread and deliver the ball lace out on a regular basis coming i50 (eg Burgoyne/Pendels types)

3. At least two pacey running players off HB who can also use the ball and hit targets on a dime (eg Shaw/Malceski types)

4. A decent lead up forward who can receive the good work from up the field and kick clutch goals (Buddy/Hawkins types... Hogan maybe ? ).

5. A decent alternative overhead mark as an alternative to the lead up forward so we can go deep if the lead is shut down (Roughhead/Cloke types)

6. A very quick, agile, classy crumber who knows where to get to to take advantage of the spills off the deep forward entries to the overhead target (Cyril/Milne types...JKH maybe?)

Can i see us finding the above anytime soon (ie., within the next 5 to 10 years) given the way the AFL has sucked the lessor clubs dry with the new start ups (priority picks etc), the AFL rigged fixture, our pitiful performances in the last decade etc? Well, failing a minor Roos driven miracle, that would be a big fat nope i'm afraid.

Depressing but true.....

[Undeeterred 2,883]

Stupid quote button not working again.

Re the cue in the rack and Scott looking for percentage.

That doesn't mean his players gave a stuff when we served up that rubbish in the first half...

They had clearly gone to sleep, no matter what their coach said he wanted.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,049]

We'll drink to that OD!

I think this is one of those bold predictions that belongs in another thread...

[Demon Dynasty 16,007]

Chris Dawes thought that it would be a good idea for his mental well being to get on the park after all the hard work he's done.

You're right though, some bloody injury will curtail his 2015 knowing our luck!

His mental well being may not be so well after playing a match with this current line up in its present form... Dawesy included.

Although saying that, i'm forgetting the quality of the delivery inside 50... amazing stuff indeed. I have pity on any forward trying to perform with our disorganised and horribly skilled mids and half backs atm.

I watched one passage over the weekend, i think it might have been out on the full or a free kick forward of the wing to us, kicking to the city end on the northern side. An ideal set up i50 opened up straight after the free with most opposition players running forward of the ball not expecting the turnover. With an open forward line of only Dawesy and Howe (and maybe one other who i can't recall) in open space. Yet as usual, instead of moving/kicking the ball quickly to a one on one Dawes on the lead or maybe deep to Howe for the overhead speckie (both of whom would have had a good chance of out marking their opponent), our player sat behind the mark for what seemed like forever as our mids proceeded to run straight towards the goals (no not out wide or away from the hot zone) and inside 50, filling much of the open spaces, and dragging their direct opponents with them into the same areas....space/time and opportunity lost. By the time we took our kick it was all over red rover and nothing came of our entry. In fact i could be wrong as i was so discusted with this piece of play i have a funny feeling the ball was rebounded out of our forward 50 into the Cats 50 for an easy goal on the rebound!

Examples like the above happen far too often to be an accident IMO and we presently don't have one weapon that i can think of (both as a team and individually...ie., speed across the ground, quick accurate ball movement through a press by foot, amazing contested marks up forward, busy skilled crumbers up forward that can kick snap goals, a clearance winning mid field, an amazing outside skillful running team that can deliver accurately by foot or kick long goals from around 50, a tackling machine that will wear the opponent down over say 3 quarters and work their ass off to kick a winning score, a dangerous multi pronged goal kicking forward line etc etc) that will worry the opposition or force them to play accountable footy where they are unable to continually play off and forward/lateral of their opponent (ie., us) on the spread as soon as they get any sniff that they're about to win a contested ball.

There is just nothing inspiring at all in this present line up that i can see that will see us become anything other than what we are right now....absolutely horrid. Sure, we might see marginal improvements from certain individuals as the years go by but nothing that will make a big enough difference to see us playing finals footy on a regular basis.

The club just needs to keep recruiting and turning over many players each year (at least a dozen or more if possible this year) until we finally fill up the gaping holes, which are unfortunately, all over the park .... with a few exceptions. Even then i just can't see us attracting the sort of caliber player we would need to in order to turn this around. Especially given the AFL's expansion agenda which is sucking the talent away from the poorer Vic clubs like us (yep i include Skully in this....he would be a reasonably handy fill in for Cross right about now and def a better option than Bail/Nicho/Tappy/M Jones long term).

Subject to some sort of amazing miracle recruiting coup in the next 2 to 3 years, If Roosy can't turn this around by then (assuming he's still about) ....we are all but buggered.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Rusty Nails

[binman 39,106]

Sure the cats eased off. That does not change the fact one iota than in the last few years that would have been a 100+ point loss, even if they put the cue in the rack. The point is that unlike the last few years we didn't put the cue away

[jackaub 1,402]

Anyone else think the crowd looked more like 25-30k?

I reckon the AFL lie about attendances.

At the very least, they are doing their best to hide them. Channel 7 used to always show the crowd in the last few minutes of the game, no matter how big or small; now they only do it when the crowd meets or exceeds expectations. Didn't show it for yesterday's Pies-Dons clash, which looked small for such a fixture. I bet they've been gagged by the AFL.

There certainly wasnt 36000 left after half time. Demons left in droves to get out of the cold and stop having to watch the rubbish out on the field

[Red and Bluebeard 2,049]

There certainly wasnt 36000 left after half time. Demons left in droves to get out of the cold and stop having to watch the rubbish out on the field

I thought it was more like 25000. However, the rain before the game drove a lot of people under cover, which may explain it.

[Bingo 241]

'Adam', I think it's time for Kent to get more of a run up the ground. I don't see him as a natural forward, particularly with the slim pickings available.

Throw him in the guts and lets see if he's got what it takes.

I wouldn't mind seeing him on the half back flank....tough, likes to tackle and will take the game on with speed.

James Frawley should probably go now. I'm not sure if he's the dumbest footballer in the league but, off the top, I'm struggling to come up with another unfortunately.

One thing's for sure...he's not winning any friends out of all this.

I think we understand it's going to take a while to fix this mess.

There is some improvement, albeit having fallen away in the last few weeks. But the efforts against Richmond and Carlton in particular were better than anything seen under Neeld.

The trajectory is upward, it's just easy to forget with how poorly the side has played recently which could be as much to do with players running out of legs as anything else. Tyson is a perfect example of that.

Agree...is a long season and a couple of recent poor efforts have gone a long way to masking the very positive first half of the season.

The win column doesn't have a lot in it, although i've seen a lot of positive signs that weren't there last season!

[Scipio 5,868]

I wouldn't mind seeing him on the half back flank....tough, likes to tackle and will take the game on with speed.

I think that what you've described there is exactly what we need in the middle right now. I would have to concur on rjay on this one.

Jack Watts however, he's tailor made for the half back flank/wing role that he seems to be playing occasionally.

[mauriesy 6,860]

We will lkeep getting smashed by anyone outside of the bottom 6 until we can find....

1. Some new on ball tallent who (collectively with say Jones, Cross, Tyson, Vince) can win more clearances than our opposition on a regular basis (Edit: in future years this should include Viney of course)

2. One or two pacey/agile outside runners who can spread and deliver the ball lace out on a regular basis coming i50 (eg Burgoyne/Pendels types)

3. At least two pacey running players off HB who can also use the ball and hit targets on a dime (eg Shaw/Malceski types)

4. A decent lead up forward who can receive the good work from up the field and kick clutch goals (Buddy/Hawkins types... Hogan maybe ? ).

5. A decent alternative overhead mark as an alternative to the lead up forward so we can go deep if the lead is shut down (Roughhead/Cloke types)

6. A very quick, agile, classy crumber who knows where to get to to take advantage of the spills off the deep forward entries to the overhead target (Cyril/Milne types...JKH maybe?)

Can I see us finding the above anytime soon (ie., within the next 5 to 10 years) given the way the AFL has sucked the lessor clubs dry with the new start ups (priority picks etc), the AFL rigged fixture, our pitiful performances in the last decade etc? Well, failing a minor Roos driven miracle, that would be a big fat nope i'm afraid.

We have 20 young players on our list who have played under 40 games. Half the list. While some will realistically be delisted as NQR as early as this year, some of your requirements will develop from within e.g. Salem, Toumpas, Hogan, JKH, Kent, maybe Barry, Riley, Hunt and Michie.

The 'dump and recruit' or 'swap card' method of list development, where supporters just look for a 'total clean out' each year, will only go so far.

[Bingo 241]

I think that what you've described there is exactly what we need in the middle right now. I would have to concur on rjay on this one.

Jack Watts however, he's tailor made for the half back flank/wing role that he seems to be playing occasionally.

I'm not sure if he has the tank for the middle and i feel our ball winning capacity isn't too bad in the middle with Jones, Tyson, Viney, Vince, Riley, Cross etc.

What we do need is some outside runners with skill.

What i do worry about is having a good kick and someone with genuine pace and game breaking ability to rebound off the HBF. Kent knows how to tackle and hit a contest hard, so he can bring that to the defensive set up. Think Nevile Jetta 2.0 with pace and a long raking kick.

Watts' skill set for delivering the football is fantastic...although we've seen before that when playing off the half back line he gets to choose when to go or not, and if he doesn't take the intercept mark he is a bit of a liability in the defense.

I like Watts as a player for what he can offer, although he needs to be challenged to become more physical and i don't see that happening on the HBF.

Thinking about it, i believe Kent has similar attributes as Wirrpanda and would be fantastic to see him setting up play from half back. The only problem is we need a forward line to kick to...and that is a different conversation all together.

[pitmaster 3,113]

Sure the cats eased off. That does not change the fact one iota than in the last few years that would have been a 100+ point loss, even if they put the cue in the rack. The point is that unlike the last few years we didn't put the cue away

One eight six showed us that they Cats like to showboat. None more so than Steve Johnson.

I don't think they had the cue in the rack so much as our negativity shut them down as their sooking coach told us.

Anyone else snakey about his comment about us not scoring without free kicks?

What about his skipper staging for head high tackles and scoring from the resulting free?

What about their constant throwing of the ball which went unpunished?

What about Pederson pushed front on in a marking contest in front of goal and no free?

(Before anyone jumps, I am not suggesting we were due anything less than a flogging but the scale was compounded by mediocre umpiring.)

Edited July 15, 2014 by pitmaster