The stats don't back you up. And my observations would certainly disagree with you.

And you could always run a poll to see who here would prefer Gunston or watts.....

That is completely disingenuous.

Watts cannot play the Gunston role effectively because we move the ball slowly and can't hit a target.

I never said Watts is better than, or even the equal of, Gunston. I said he could become a Gunston type player.

And his contested possession stats will improve if we can hit him on a lead.

Anyway, I don't want to keep pushing this barrow as I'm not as passionate about JW as my posts would suggest. People just need to realise that our disposal makes it really hard to be a good forward in this team. Just ask Dawes.

Roos has played him in every game.

He has established himself.

In Dunn's 7th year he played 11 games.

And Watts will be Watts, not Goddard, not Dunn.

He can be a high HFF that pushes into the forward line with excellent kicking skills and vision.

As a Demon - I want that. I want that player.

I didn't say he hadn't established himself, I said that he hadn't established himself in a position. In this context the definition I attribute to 'established' is consistent AFL level performances, which hasn't happened throughout his career.

I want what you want, Jack Watts to be a consistent and effective AFL quality player. I've given up on him being a star and would be quite happy if he was to have a similar career trajectory to Dunn.

I would like to see us draft some players who will give him pressure for his spot - Who do we have in the VFL that could play Jack's role? Is he competing with the likes of Blease/ Strauss for a spot? I'm going to stick by the comment that he's getting games due to a lack of depth rather than good/ consistent performances.

I would like to see us draft some players who will give him pressure for his spot - Who do we have in the VFL that could play Jack's role? Is he competing with the likes of Blease/ Strauss for a spot? I'm going to stick by the comment that he's getting games due to a lack of depth rather than good/ consistent performances.

I don't disagree. But the list of players that would be at risk if we had more depth would be quite a few before we get to Watts...

HFF is a position at the mercy of the team - I am sorry to say this about a former number 1 pick but it is the case for all forwards - they need others to get them the ball.

When I look at the form of our forward line and our back line it is through the prism (and prison) of our third rate midfield.

I am sorry if this sounds like a cop out, or making excuses - I call them 'reasons' - but we still are;

- 18th in I50s with 40 a game. The average teams have about 50.

- 17th in Clearances with 34 a game. The average teams have about 38.

Stats like the above don't tell the full story but we move the ball slowly, and poorly, and get it less than other teams - how can a HFF, or any forward, show their best in that environment?

Geelong are 18th in Clearances for those who like a good story about stats, but they get the footy 13 more times a game than us and get it into our forward line 11 more times a game. That tells me that they move the ball form their backline, through the middle, and into their forward line quickly and well and give their forwards the chance to have 9 more scoring shots a game than us.

I've defended Watts since he was drafted, but this year that has ended.

I do not care what the club does with Jack Watts anymore.

I like to think I know my football, and I will admit - I do not even know what areas Watts needs to improve in.

He looks classy, skillful and poised, he has all the attributes I'd look for in a player.

Yet he has absolutely no effect on the game. Maybe Jack's flaws are above the shoulders.

I'd be interested to hear if the club has sought out a sports psychologist for Jack Watts.

Maybe Jack's flaws are above the shoulders.

I'd be interested to hear if the club has sought out a sports psychologist for Jack Watts.

Don't know if it was with the prompting of the club but he has sought counsel from Mick Malthouse - when old Mick was on the dole between jobs. Now a few sessions with Mick has got to be enough to fry anyone's brains right there.

Yeah Great teacher just watt he needs

I've defended Watts since he was drafted, but this year that has ended.

I do not care what the club does with Jack Watts anymore.

I like to think I know my football, and I will admit - I do not even know what areas Watts needs to improve in.

He looks classy, skillful and poised, he has all the attributes I'd look for in a player.

Yet he has absolutely no effect on the game. Maybe Jack's flaws are above the shoulders.

I'd be interested to hear if the club has sought out a sports psychologist for Jack Watts.

It is not a case of maybe, it is obviously an above the shoulders issue. The kid has all the physical attributes to be a superstar, but mentally he just doesn't want to take on the physical contact, impact the contest that AFL demands. In my opinion he has good peripheral vision so he knows what is going on around him and who is doing what in a contest so I am at a loss to understand his total lack of ability to impose himself on a contest whether it be tackling, high marking, marking on the lead etc. All I see is a receiver with some delivery skills, when he has space.

Watts, Dawes, Pederson, JKH, Bail, Salem, formally Howe.....have we got or have had in the past 2 seasons ANY forwards we regard as consistent, effective, team orientated, etc etc......no, none, zippo.

It's lucky to get forward 35 times a game, and almost always slowly......Gunston, Jack Darling, Hawkins, riewoldt, they'd all struggle in our forward line.

It's bloody hard to play forward when it doesn't get there. I don't love watts, think he is soft and it frustrates me he isn't the quality I wanted for a pick 1, but seriously his skills and ability make me want him in a successful demons team.

Get some bloody mids and move on.

For what its worth I think going hard at a contest is instinctive and as such innate or learned at a early age. I would guess Watts is a thinker and by the time he has summed up the situation his time has past. His brain is wired differently and unlikely to change much.

I doubt it is lack of courage or motivation to contribute.

The smart approach would be to develop what he has to offer as an outside distributor and place good quality inside grunt players around him.

For what its worth I think going hard at a contest is instinctive and as such innate or learned at a early age. I would guess Watts is a thinker and by the time he has summed up the situation his time has past. His brain is wired differently and unlikely to change much.

I doubt it is lack of courage or motivation to contribute.

The smart approach would be to develop what he has to offer as an outside distributor and place good quality inside grunt players around him.

Essentially agree....some see ball get ball etc ,; some see ball and contemplate how it will be moved. Some can do BOTH ( we need to find these pronto ) I still think if you keep Jackie its on the wing, in space , as a link , instigator type player who can patrol from hbl to hfl even coursing at goal when opportunity presents. He does have skills, he just doesnt have mongrel

Watts, Dawes, Pederson, JKH, Bail, Salem, formally Howe.....have we got or have had in the past 2 seasons ANY forwards we regard as consistent, effective, team orientated, etc etc......no, none, zippo.

It's lucky to get forward 35 times a game, and almost always slowly......Gunston, Jack Darling, Hawkins, riewoldt, they'd all struggle in our forward line.

It's bloody hard to play forward when it doesn't get there. I don't love watts, think he is soft and it frustrates me he isn't the quality I wanted for a pick 1, but seriously his skills and ability make me want him in a successful demons team.

Get some bloody mids and move on.

I still argue that without good forwards who create options, midfielders are less likely to take the game on and try to move the ball into the forward fifty quickly. Therefore, a lack of forward line entries is a two-way street.

Could both Watts and Frawley end up at Hawthorn? This would begin to weaken them. one can only hope. Actually add to that, Grimes, Jamar, Trengove, this could be a whole new strategy to weaken other clubs.

It's interesting how Roos is ramping up the pressure. The warm and cuddly start to the season seems to be over. I think he has now got his head around the list and the cuts may go deep.

No he's not. He's advertising to the world that we will trade anyone for the right price.

If you want draft picks, Melbourne is the place to come.

If you want players we'll talk.

He has to we need wholesale changes and trading depends on other clubs. We can't trade with ourselves.

Could both Watts and Frawley end up at Hawthorn? This would begin to weaken them. one can only hope. Actually add to that, Grimes, Jamar, Trengove, this could be a whole new strategy to weaken other clubs.

Now thats a strategy We trade the whole team and weaken the entire competition

Watts will do well with a side that can deliver the ball to him, he is reasonably good mark on the lead but not very good at the stand and deliver/wrestle type mark. He would be a fantastic forward for any side that can put the ball out in front of him to run onto which hawthorn, Geelong, freo, westcoast, well actually virtually any side but ours can do.

I ambivalent about Watts. Long has the time passed where I hope he turns into an effective AFL player. It may happen one day, it may not. I don't really care.

BUT in saying that, I still think we should keep Watts on the list. We'll be turning over so many players this offseason that incoming quality will be diluted.
For all his deficiencies, Watts is still undeniably better than some pick 50 18-year old.

Plus Next year is his 7th year on the list. At the end of 2015, we can still trade him without losing him to free agency. Realistically I don't think his currency could drop any more, so we may as well hold onto him for 12 months. The alternative is that he improves - which leads to him either staying on the list or becoming useful trade bait. Either way, it would be more wise to keep him for next year.

Yeah Great teacher just watt he needs

watts for yarran, fair deal? win win or lose lose...

Poster on BF forums said Strauss and Blease were given their marching orders today?

watts for yarran, fair deal? win win or lose lose...

Yarran is a brilliant player who can just go missing.

Carlton mate furious with his effort on the weekend.

Can set up goals or kick them.

Tapscott will be delisted then rookied

Yarran is a brilliant player who can just go missing.

Carlton mate furious with his effort on the weekend.

Can set up goals or kick them.

I noticed a couple of his plays a good run followed up with lack of chase & defensive effort. byut at least he shows some effort. Roosy could get him right. he's not so scared as lazy.

watts can just blow away on the breeze as far as I'm concerned. I do Not want to see him again in R&B...

like for like, as I see it.

Also heard strauss and bingers delisted.

Mods - can we please have an officially sanctioned, no BS speculation, delisted players thread?

Tapscott will be delisted then rookied

Why? I'd re-rookie Blease if anyone. I suspect someone else will have a go with him though.

Why? I'd re-rookie Blease if anyone. I suspect someone else will have a go with him though.

Blease has never come to terms AFL is a team sport. Way too selfish on the field, and under Roos that ain't gonna work.