NAB Challenge 2 - Melbourne v Geelong

[Machsy 2,858]

Vardy is out for the season.

Not sure if he was named though.

Another blow to the cats making the 8.

[Guest]

Vardy is out for the season.

Not sure if he was named though.

Another blow to the cats making the 8.

The Cats could lose Selwood and still make the 8. Vardy will not affect their finals aspirations

[DeeSpencer 23,233]

The Cats could lose Selwood and still make the 8. Vardy will not affect their finals aspirations

Might not change their chances of getting to finals but puts a big hole in their chances of finishing top 4 and of winning finals.

Rucks; Simpson (big, unproven, promising), McIntosh (often injured), Blicavs (undersized, raw)

2nd ruck/forward options: Walker (bit small at 196cm)

Key forwards: Hawkins, Kersten (bit undersized at 191cm)

That's a pretty benign bunch besides Hawkins. Of course Geelong still have enough talent in the backline talls and with a huge mixture of smalls but key forwards who win one on ones and big rucks who impact games are pretty important. Geelong now look a bit vulnerable in that area. Say they play Freo again in a final and the come up against Sandilands and Zac Clarke then that's a big advantage to the Freo midfield. And down back Freo have Dawson, McPharlin and Johnson, who would really put pressure on the second and third tall Geelong forwards.

[monoccular 16,197]

Just remember, Jamar is the tap out king. While he might not really offer much more than that, with a functioning midfield he could prove to be highly effective.

Jamar has in the past had some really high hitout numbers - I have never seen however stats showing how many of these have been (used) to our advantage. I suspect very few have been. Now how much of that has been due to his hitout technique and how much related to a poor or poorly trained and drilled midfield I cannot say. I guess (if Mark actually makes an appearance) our dramatically improved midfield could answer that question.

But the other huge disappointment especially since his AA season has been an almost total absence of any contribution around the ground, as a marking option or as a link, or as a resting forward.

[PJ_12345 1,098]

Jamar has in the past had some really high hitout numbers - I have never seen however stats showing how many of these have been (used) to our advantage. I suspect very few have been. Now how much of that has been due to his hitout technique and how much related to a poor or poorly trained and drilled midfield I cannot say. I guess (if Mark actually makes an appearance) our dramatically improved midfield could answer that question.

But the other huge disappointment especially since his AA season has been an almost total absence of any contribution around the ground, as a marking option or as a link, or as a resting forward.

He was hitting out to advantage for Brisbane last season!

[Alcho Dee 269]

I think Strauss is over-rated, particularly his kicking skills. He comes under the category IMHO as a "dumb footballer". Too many silly errors and he gets caught far too often. He will be a handy backup, no more, particularly now we have Georgiou, who I have no doubt will be elevated off the rookie list before the season starts.

what a joke! In my opinion he is very composed with the ball and he is one of the best kicks on our list. Georgiou hasn't even played a game yet! What part of his game is "dumb" ? He snapped his leg in half a couple of years ago, which has often been a career ending injury and he is still a young defender. I love the way he plays and I hope he is a regular this year.

[Alcho Dee 269]

Spencer had more hitouts than any other ruck on the ground on Friday. You can add up the combination of the Richmond crew but he was basically working on his own with some help by King & Pedersen neither of whom you would call ruck men at this stage.

I think Spencer has been harshly marked for that bad kick. Being at the ground I thought he did a lot of good work around the ground and held his own in the ruck.

Yeah he has been harshly marked by many, but that turn over was just ridiculous lucky it was only the nab cup and we went onto win the game, had it been a real game I don't think we would be that forgiving. It might be worth noting that Ivan Maric was out of the game who is Richmonds no1 ruckman, so really Spencer should have dominated a bit more than what he did. I'm not a fan of his as a footballer, I love his effort and attitude, but his skills are Casey standard.

[Alcho Dee 269]

I don't think any of them will get a look in for round one, now that Georgiou has put his hand up and will IMO be promoted from the rookie list. At this stage, my round one team would be:

FB Georgiou Frawley. Pederson

HB. Grimes. McDonald. Dunn

C. Watts. N Jones. Toumpas

HF: Viney. Dawes. Hogan

FF: Howe. Fitzpatrick. JKH

Foll: Gawn. Tyson. Vince

Inter: Trengove Salem Cross

Sub: Bleese

Reserves: Mckenzie. Michie. Bail. Matt Jones. Clisby. Byrnes

Not a bad side. Even better when Clark and Garland are available

Michie should easily be getting a game before Salem round 1 and Blease.

[CBDees 3,162]

Michie should easily be getting a game before Salem round 1 and Blease.

and Terlich ahead of Pedersen in the backline [particularly when he has been training with the forwards]

[rpfc 27,539]

Yeah he has been harshly marked by many, but that turn over was just ridiculous lucky it was only the nab cup and we went onto win the game, had it been a real game I don't think we would be that forgiving. It might be worth noting that Ivan Maric was out of the game who is Richmonds no1 ruckman, so really Spencer should have dominated a bit more than what he did. I'm not a fan of his as a footballer, I love his effort and attitude, but his skills are Casey standard.

Shaun Hampson was their ruckman and he was meant to dominate Spencer. He didn't, and has copped flak because of it.

And skills are a distant third desirable for a ruckman behind how one uses their body in contested situations and tap work around the ground.

Getting riled up because he screws up half of his 4 kicks a game is pointless.

Compete in the middle, give us some footy around the ground, follow your man and you are a competent to good ruckman.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Shaun Hampson was their ruckman and he was meant to dominate Spencer. He didn't, and has copped flak because of it.And skills are a distant third desirable for a ruckman behind how one uses their body in contested situations and tap work around the ground.Getting riled up because he screws up half of his 4 kicks a game is pointless.Compete in the middle, give us some footy around the ground, follow your man and you are a competent to good ruckman.

I'm one of the people that will have a go at him because of his skills. It wasn't just kicks he missed. His marking for a bloke of his size is quite poor as is his positional work in marking contests.

He tries his guts out and competes hard, there's no knock there. However, we will struggle against other teams if Spencer is our number 1 ruckman.

Too many brain fades for me.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I don't rate ruckman unless they're very good. It's the most overrated position on the ground. It's different when a ruckman is a genuine A-grader, but here's not many Simon Madden, Sandilands and Dean Cox types running around.

I think you can probably work out my opinion of Spencer.

[CBDees 3,162]

Fellow Demonlanders: This match is very winnable!

Look at the NAB Challenge so far:

1. Melbourne vs the Tigers - We won this by 14 points without the input of Dawes, Hogan, Watts, Viney, Clark etc. The Tigers didn't have Reiwoldt!
2. Collingwood vs the Cats - The Cats won this by a mere 2 points.
3. Collingwood vs the Tigers - The Tiges thrashed the Pies by 48 points. The Tigers again didn't have Reiwoldt!

My interpretation of the above is that we should go into the game next Friday oozing with self-belief that we are the match of the top eight sides. Although many sides choose not to play their best 22 during these matches, they are still a good litmus test as to where the team is at. The last fortnight has shown that:

• we can match it with the Tigers,
• the Tigers are demonstateably better than Collingwood and
• Collingwood is on a par with the Cats.

Accordingly, we have every chance of beating the Cats, especially when we welcome back Hogan, Dawes, Watts and possibly Viney. and particularly when the game is to be played on a neutral ground such as Alice Springs!

The game is ours to lose!

[Damo 3,000]

Its no big deal.

We went out and won the 1st. Good, but the tigers looked a different outfit yesterday.

We need to have a decent outing and not lose by too much, but if the cats are cruising, then go for it.

At this point Im looking to St Kilda Round one and hope we play a few cards close to the chest.

None the less I will be scaring the dogs barracking.

[Deeoldfart 7,785]

Fellow Demonlanders: This match is very winnable!

Look at the NAB Challenge so far:

1. Melbourne vs the Tigers - We won this by 14 points without the input of Dawes, Hogan, Watts, Viney, Clark etc. The Tigers didn't have Reiwoldt!
2. Collingwood vs the Cats - The Cats won this by a mere 2 points.
3. Collingwood vs the Tigers - The Tiges thrashed the Pies by 48 points. The Tigers again didn't have Reiwoldt!

My interpretation of the above is that we should go into the game next Friday oozing with self-belief that we are the match of the top eight sides. Although many sides choose not to play their best 22 during these matches, they are still a good litmus test as to where the team is at. The last fortnight has shown that:

• we can match it with the Tigers,
• the Tigers are demonstateably better than Collingwood and
• Collingwood is on a par with the Cats.

Accordingly, we have every chance of beating the Cats, especially when we welcome back Hogan, Dawes, Watts and possibly Viney. and particularly when the game is to be played on a neutral ground such as Alice Springs!

The game is ours to lose!

Logical, but footy doesn't work that way. I think we are in with a bit of a chance, just the same!

[DeeSpencer 23,233]

I don't rate ruckman unless they're very good. It's the most overrated position on the ground. It's different when a ruckman is a genuine A-grader, but here's not many Simon Madden, Sandilands and Dean Cox types running around.

I think you can probably work out my opinion of Spencer.

You see I don't understand that because for their to be a Dean Cox it means he has to have a direct opponent to play on.

Jamar was huge in 2010 and that was the first and last time in a long time we had a close to dominant big guy. Not only did he help us win games by smashing some opponent he also got us in games against the likes of Cox, Sandilands etc by limiting their output.

I agree there are a couple of A graders running around at any stage and then a couple of guys who in any one or two years play at that level (Minson last year, Maric the year before) and then mainly a lot of similar B graders. But you got to have one of those B graders because otherwise you can get destroyed by an A grade player.

The horrendous skills are one thing from Spencer but they are what they are. I feel he makes up for them by chasing down midfielders and laying some big tackles that no other ruck even Cox does (ok maybe NicNat). What I judge Spencer on is his ability to win at least 40% of the hit outs so his opponents are stuffing it down their midfielders throats and getting easy clearances and Spencer's ability to spoil (or mark) around the ground. When he's a long target he has to get his hands on the ball and if he doesn't mark at least bring it to ground and when he's defending a long bomb from the other team he has to not be outmarked. In the past he's had a tendency to be out of position and/or pushed out of way too many marking contests given his size and strength.

[rpfc 27,539]

I don't rate ruckman unless they're very good. It's the most overrated position on the ground. It's different when a ruckman is a genuine A-grader, but here's not many Simon Madden, Sandilands and Dean Cox types running around.

I think you can probably work out my opinion of Spencer.

This is why it is such a low mark to be a competent ruckman.

Unless he comes up against a Sandliands et al. he will hold his own against ruckman as limited as he.

If Spencer wins his spot by being the best of a bad lot, so be it - he won't be a weak link.

Until we play Freo or WCE...

[Hannibal 5,814]

You see I don't understand that because for their to be a Dean Cox it means he has to have a direct opponent to play on.

And they're a dime a dozen.

[Alcho Dee 269]

This is why it is such a low mark to be a competent ruckman.

Unless he comes up against a Sandliands et al. he will hold his own against ruckman as limited as he.

If Spencer wins his spot by being the best of a bad lot, so be it - he won't be a weak link.

Until we play Freo or WCE...

Or Hawthorn(Mcevoy/Hale/Roughead)

Or Richmond (Maric/Hampson)

Or Carlton (Kruezer/Warnock)

Or Essendon (Bellchambers/Ryder)

Or GWS (Giles/Mumford)

And so many others...

There is a big question mark over Spencer, what I like to have in a ruckman is the ability to push forward for 15% or their game time. I think both Jamar and Gawn have the ability to play forward.

Ideally we want either Jamar or Gawn to play 80% of their game time in the ruck and push forward late in quarters to try and take a grab or sneak a goal! this would mean Mitch Clark playing 20 of his game time in the ruck.

Our best combination is Jamar or Gawn with Clark. Clark is so important to the structure of our side.

[monoccular 16,197]

Or Hawthorn(Mcevoy/Hale/Roughead)

Or Richmond (Maric/Hampson)

Or Carlton (Kruezer/Warnock)

Or Essendon (Bellchambers/Ryder)

Or GWS (Giles/Mumford)

And so many others...

There is a big question mark over Spencer, what I like to have in a ruckman is the ability to push forward for 15% or their game time. I think both Jamar and Gawn have the ability to play forward.

Ideally we want either Jamar or Gawn to play 80% of their game time in the ruck and push forward late in quarters to try and take a grab or sneak a goal! this would mean Mitch Clark playing 20 of his game time in the ruck.

Our best combination is Jamar or Gawn with Clark. Clark is so important to the structure of our side.

Gawn has proven himself as a competent resting forward.

As far as I can recall Jamar has only fired up forward once, and was that against a tanking Carlton (or were we allegedly tanking that day). Bag of 5 as I remember. But other than that he has offered so very little as a forward, or around the ground.

[DeeSpencer 23,233]

And they're a dime a dozen.

No but I'm saying the one's who can do enough to limit the impact of a Cox/Sandilands are extremely important and not every team has one at the time they need it. Max Bailey is the latest premiership ruckman who was a dime a dozen player but if they Hawks didn't have him they might not have won the grand final.

Same can be said for full backs. Obviously a very good one is great but as long as you have a decent one who doesn't get exploited you can make do. Again it's a lesson Hawthorn learnt losing big games with Schoenmakers.

Spencer and Gawn are both very close to the level at which they can limit the impact of their direct opponent, which particularly for Spencer is what I want to see from him. Jamar rose to a level above that but now is probably not quite at that level again. Rucks become unimportant when they cancel each other out. When the opposition get a bonus midfielder capable of taking marks around the ground AND/OR a guy who wins 80% of the hit outs and spoon feeds his midfielders then the team is in trouble.

[rpfc 27,539]

Or Hawthorn(Mcevoy/Hale/Roughead)

Or Richmond (Maric/Hampson)

Or Carlton (Kruezer/Warnock)

Or Essendon (Bellchambers/Ryder)

Or GWS (Giles/Mumford)

And so many others...

There is a big question mark over Spencer, what I like to have in a ruckman is the ability to push forward for 15% or their game time. I think both Jamar and Gawn have the ability to play forward.

Ideally we want either Jamar or Gawn to play 80% of their game time in the ruck and push forward late in quarters to try and take a grab or sneak a goal! this would mean Mitch Clark playing 20 of his game time in the ruck.

Our best combination is Jamar or Gawn with Clark. Clark is so important to the structure of our side.

Mumford didn't impress me last year, and apart from Ryder, I can see Spencer being able to nullify all of those other names.

I really think you overrate some of those ruckmen, remember, all I said was Spencer would be able to compete with them, give us some clean footy, and follow them around the ground.

[Alcho Dee 269]

Or Hawthorn(Mcevoy/Hale/Roughead)

Or Richmond (Maric/Hampson)

Or Carlton (Kruezer/Warnock)

Or Essendon (Bellchambers/Ryder)

Or GWS (Giles/Mumford)

And so many others...

There is a big question mark over Spencer, what I like to have in a ruckman is the ability to push forward for 15% or their game time. I think both Jamar and Gawn have the ability to play forward.

Ideally we want either Jamar or Gawn to play 80% of their game time in the ruck and push forward late in quarters to try and take a grab or sneak a goal! this would mean Mitch Clark playing 20 of his game time in the ruck.

Our best combination is Jamar or Gawn with Clark. Clark is so important to the structure of our side.

Mumford didn't impress me last year, and apart from Ryder, I can see Spencer being able to nullify all of those other names.

I really think you overrate some of those ruckmen, remember, all I said was Spencer would be able to compete with them, give us some clean footy, and follow them around the ground.

I would prefer all the ruck men I have named above over Spencer at the moment, remembering Spencer is still relatively young. Sure he can compete, but it would be great if he could impact the game a bit more, I wish him all the best and hope his skills and awareness improve as the years go by. He has been on our list for about 5 years now so it would be a waste not to stick with him and keep developing him.

[Ted Lasso 16,874]

Win against the tigers was great but how many times in recent years have we gone and dropped the ball the next week, a really good four quarter effort against a genuine quality side in the cats will have me and i'm sure the players and alot of other supporters convinced we are well and truely on the way back.

[rjay 23,929]

The Cats could lose Selwood and still make the 8. Vardy will not affect their finals aspirations

I think they will struggle. Vardy is a big loss as he was slated to be their 2nd tall forward to back up Hawkins who may or may not come up with his bad back.

I thought the would struggle anyway, you don't just replace champions (ask the Australian cricket team). Depth is an illusion given credence by still having some champions to cover, they're getting older and making mistakes (think Bartel at crucial times last year, he won't get better) or carrying injury. Some of the kids are good but 2 of the best are also going to miss the first half of the season at least.