One gets the distinct impression that the AFL has been trying to cover essendons butts the whole time (esp. the players)

I'm sure they would love to magically make it go away by doing deals. They can't. They may be able to influence ASADA via putting political pressure on them, but if they go soft on Essendon WADA will step in via the international appeal process and ensure justice is done.

As I have written elsewhere in here, after the international congress of WADA in South Africa last month, where the Australian situation with its football codes was discussed at length, the world is now watching. Most countries have the same challenges in enforcing the WADA codes on wealthy local football codes. With Australia being an international sporting superpower and up until quite recently being a "clean skin" as far as enforcement of doping codes was concerned, and with a transparent judicial system, the outcomes of the AFL/NRL cases is seen as an international test case, and potentially a blueprint for other less transparent countries to follow in dealing with these issues.

We cannot fail in this, however much certain Canberra based politicians would like us to (judging by their comments on it over the last 6 months), it is simply too important for the international sporting architecture.

The good news is WADA will not allow us to drop the ball here. If necessary they will use their international powers to ensure justice is done.

One gets the distinct impression that the AFL has been trying to cover essendons butts the whole time (esp. the players)

I'm sure they would love to magically make it go away by doing deals. They can't. They may be able to influence ASADA via putting political pressure on them, but if they go soft on Essendon WADA will step in via the international appeal process and ensure justice is done.

As I have written elsewhere in here, after the international congress of WADA in South Africa last month, where the Australian situation with its football codes was discussed at length, the world is now watching. Most countries have the same challenges in enforcing the WADA codes on wealthy local football codes. With Australia being an international sporting superpower and up until quite recently being a "clean skin" as far as enforcement of doping codes was concerned, and with a transparent judicial system, the outcomes of the AFL/NRL cases is seen as an international test case, and potentially a blueprint for other less transparent countries to follow in dealing with these issues.

We cannot fail in this, however much certain Canberra based politicians would like us to (judging by their comments on it over the last 6 months), it is simply too important for the international sporting architecture.

The good news is WADA will not allow us to drop the ball here. If necessary they will use their international powers to ensure justice is done.

that weapon seems to be fair and squarely aimed at Essendon, not the AFL

Yes he wants his payday, and Essendon are the only entity from where he is likely to get it. He doesn't care if there is collateral damage to the AFL if it suits his case, and neither should he.

It seems likely that the AFL/EFC and the Hird cronies back room dealings will be exposedc by this process, and that can only be a good thing .

And more: Darren Hibbert aka the Gazelle, brings forward interview with Asada

Hibbert, an employee of Advanced Sports Nutrition and an associate of Stephen Dank, was originally scheduled to appear before ASADA on December 19. However, with the drugs probe threatening to drag on into next year, the man dubbed ''The Gazelle'' has welcomed the chance to tell investigators his side of the story.

''In order to be co-operative, Darren has graciously offered to move forward his interview to assist ASADA in their aim to have the matter resolved before Christmas,'' Hibbert's lawyer, Zali Burrows, said.

This is going to get very messy and IMO will end up making few lawyers very wealthy. The AFL is being challenged by Hird and co and the AFL will end up becoming a victim of its own wranglings that will ultimately damage the brand and the competiton for many years to come. This is probably the first time I can think of where the AFL has had a beligerant and combative element of the industry to deal with. In previous occasions. and there are plenty to recall. the clubs have negotiated an outcome then tapped the mat and copped the medicine. Melbourne did that with the tanking affair and they do this in the best interests of the club and the competition. Hird is not prepared to do this and it seems is determined to have have his day in court.

It is hard to see how this will play out until the ASADA and or WADA investigation/s and ACC enquiries reach their conclusions but IMO:

1. there will be infraction noticies issued to players and officials at Essendon. Hirds actions while not a determining factor are making it harder for other desicions to be made due to the lack of contrition and the club and him not taking responsibility for this situation.

2. it is unlikely infractions will be issued for AOD due to ASADA's incomplete previous advice to Dank (Mistake of fact?)

3. The Essendon FC will be sued by sacked employees and affected players

5. The AFL is now being forced by the Hird camp to further punish Hird and Essendon which I belive is designed to give Hird what he has wanted all along, his day in court.

6. This will end with Demitriou departing the AFL.

This matter will drag on for a couple of years and the Ministers statement that this is "the blackest day in Australian sport" will end up being prophetic.

Any chance of merging the two threads? Essendon's woes have become the AFL's, and vice versa.

Any chance of merging the two threads? Essendon's woes have become the AFL's, and vice versa.

yep good idea...suggested that ages ago. Tis same bucket irrespective of brush.

re Tania....hard to know what to make of this Bird, or Hird. Just supportive ? Co

-delusional or a sociopath in her own right ?

Any which way they are totally self focused and disgustingly indifferent to the harm caused to the gullible, supposedly under their wing.

The hirds are so out of touch with what the average person thinks. I spose 20+ years of being almost godly can make u a bit warped in the head?

This is going to get very messy and IMO will end up making few lawyers very wealthy. The AFL is being challenged by Hird and co and the AFL will end up becoming a victim of its own wranglings that will ultimately damage the brand and the competiton for many years to come. This is probably the first time I can think of where the AFL has had a beligerant and combative element of the industry to deal with. In previous occasions. and there are plenty to recall. the clubs have negotiated an outcome then tapped the mat and copped the medicine. Melbourne did that with the tanking affair and they do this in the best interests of the club and the competition. Hird is not prepared to do this and it seems is determined to have have his day in court.

It is hard to see how this will play out until the ASADA and or WADA investigation/s and ACC enquiries reach their conclusions but IMO:

1. there will be infraction noticies issued to players and officials at Essendon. Hirds actions while not a determining factor are making it harder for other desicions to be made due to the lack of contrition and the club and him not taking responsibility for this situation.

2. it is unlikely infractions will be issued for AOD due to ASADA's incomplete previous advice to Dank (Mistake of fact?)

3. The Essendon FC will be sued by sacked employees and affected players

5. The AFL is now being forced by the Hird camp to further punish Hird and Essendon which I belive is designed to give Hird what he has wanted all along, his day in court.

6. This will end with Demitriou departing the AFL.

This matter will drag on for a couple of years and the Ministers statement that this is "the blackest day in Australian sport" will end up being prophetic.

I doubt that this is in the interests of the EFC and will almost certainly tarnish their already shabby name even further.

You would think that the EFC would like this to all go away especially as the new season is approaching.

I doubt that this is in the interests of the EFC and will almost certainly tarnish their already shabby name even further.

You would think that the EFC would like this to all go away especially as the new season is approaching.

I agree, I think Hird is acting without regard to the younng men and other employees he was responsible for and also in contempt of the club he is suposed to love. Love or hate Connolly, but he took a whack for the MFC and IMO is a better man than Hird will ever be.

I agree, I think Hird is acting without regard to the younng men and other employees he was responsible for and also in contempt of the club he is suposed to love. Love or hate Connolly, but he took a whack for the MFC and IMO is a better man than Hird will ever be.

yes. Not a word has been heard from Cuddles. He has done the right thing.

We need years of stability.

yes. Not a word has been heard from Cuddles. He has done the right thing.

We need years of stability.

I suggest it is the size of the relative ego's involved.

When I heard on the radio AD telling Neil Mitchell that he would go to his grave knowing Essendeon nor the AFL were paying Hird, I was certain he was not lying.

Shifty work was then done to ensure he got a wage. That was done in an underhand manner outside the scope of the penalty AD and Essendon agreed to.

This does not make AD collateral damage in my view.

It would be unfair to a reasonable person for him to be part of the fallout.

The same reasoning should apply to Chris Connelly. I dont exactly know what he did wrong and he got whacked.

It was not a "fair whack" to me and Im a reasonable person.

He may be doing the right thing but was the right thing done to him? Not in my book.

When I heard on the radio AD telling Neil Mitchell that he would go to his grave knowing Essendeon nor the AFL were paying Hird, I was certain he was not lying.

Shifty work was then done to ensure he got a wage. That was done in an underhand manner outside the scope of the penalty AD and Essendon agreed to.

This does not make AD collateral damage in my view.

It would be unfair to a reasonable person for him to be part of the fallout.

The same reasoning should apply to Chris Connelly. I dont exactly know what he did wrong and he got whacked.

It was not a "fair whack" to me and Im a reasonable person.

He may be doing the right thing but was the right thing done to him? Not in my book.

It seemed to me at the time Hird was suspended that it was a given that it was suspended without pay and that any reasonable person would have expected this to be the case, including AD. That the AFL didn't explicitly write it into the sanction is an over-sight that I'm sure they regret. Trying to think it through from the Hirds' viewpoint - I'm not so sure that the payments were underhanded. I think they actually drink their own bathwater to such and extent that they genuinely think Hird should continue to be paid. Takes hubris to a whole new level.

When I heard on the radio AD telling Neil Mitchell that he would go to his grave knowing Essendeon nor the AFL were paying Hird, I was certain he was not lying.

Agreed. Why would he lie so blatantly? He could have easily buried his response in the usual fluff, qualifications and spin.

But even if one was not certain, it doesn't justify calling him a liar like R Wilson did in AFL boss Andrew Demetriou must resign or be sacked following Essendon saga unless you had firm evidence he was lying.

The pro-Hird camp are obviously confident AD won't sue them. I wonder if he will get to the point where he thinks putting up his hand for leaking ASADA's information to Essendon (with whatever penalties flow from that) and then being free to take Essendon/Hird on personally is on balance more profitable to him than putting up with this.

It seemed to me at the time Hird was suspended that it was a given that it was suspended without pay and that any reasonable person would have expected this to be the case, including AD. That the AFL didn't explicitly write it into the sanction is an over-sight that I'm sure they regret. Trying to think it through from the Hirds' viewpoint - I'm not so sure that the payments were underhanded. I think they actually drink their own bathwater to such and extent that they genuinely think Hird should continue to be paid. Takes hubris to a whole new level.

Anyone would infer that suspended means no pay, as there is no work done.

When the oppositie is the case, you usually get the rider, "suspended on full pay". The reason for that is, that you are not doing the norm and explaining it.

Just a different view from the Age - AFLs funding threat to Essendon over James Hird payment issue

The AFL has told Essendon it will withhold a substantial part of the club's monthly allocation of funding until it explains whether and why it is paying suspended coach James Hird.

As the spat between the Bombers, Hird, and the AFL intensified on Thursday, the AFL revealed it had twice written to the club in the past week, seeking assurances it was upholding the agreed terms of Hird's suspension.

While the AFL has conceded there was no official written agreement that Hird could not be paid during his 12-month ban for his part in the club's controversial supplements program, which is still being investigated by the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority, the AFL says there was a "clear intention" that Hird not be paid.

It's understood the AFL will deny the Bombers a six-figure sum until the club responds to its two letters.

The AFL gave Essendon $8.4 million in discretionary distributions in the 2012-13 financial year around $700,000 a month.

AFL chief Andrew Demetriou said the league had been consulting with Essendon since September on the terms of Hird's suspension, including that he could not be paid by the club.

another solution may have been to suspend hird's suspension until he is removed from the payroll

that would hurt

another solution may have been to suspend hird's suspension until he is removed from the payroll

that would hurt

Or suspend Essendon until he is.

one thing is very clear though

essendon should never have extended hird's contract until asada's investigation had reached conclusion

that would only have been prudent and quite defensible

this was poor governance and a very surprising decision by little

James the loser Hird continues to bring he EFC to its knees

and yet their fans (well most of them) still adore him

It is so pathetic

Really like.

another solution may have been to suspend hird's suspension until he is removed from the payroll

that would hurt

That's a good point. If he has been paid for the past 2-3 months then surely his suspension only counts when he stops being paid?

For me, the key in who is right here will be "do the suspensions for other afl people (cuddles, bailey, Thompson, the Adelaide list manager etc.) all specify "suspended without pay" and/or were these people paid during their suspensions?"

When I heard on the radio AD telling Neil Mitchell that he would go to his grave knowing Essendeon nor the AFL were paying Hird, I was certain he was not lying.

Shifty work was then done to ensure he got a wage. That was done in an underhand manner outside the scope of the penalty AD and Essendon agreed to.

This does not make AD collateral damage in my view.

It would be unfair to a reasonable person for him to be part of the fallout.

The same reasoning should apply to Chris Connelly. I dont exactly know what he did wrong and he got whacked.

It was not a "fair whack" to me and Im a reasonable person.

He may be doing the right thing but was the right thing done to him? Not in my book.

Demetriou became collateral damage not because he was caught lying but because he was shown to be naive and easily deceived - qualities that dont become a CEO who has hitherto acted with a large element of arrogance.

The emperor was blindsided and, as a result, shown to be bereft of clothes.

Lets just rewind here and have a look at what is motivating the parties involved.

Essendon systematically injects its players with illegal performance enhancing drugs.

The AFL knows this.

An AFL without Essendon loses fans and a game a week - something that dramatically reduces old Andy's pocket, as he gets bonuses according to crowd numbers etc.

He wants to protect Essendon and the game as a result.

Calling the Bombers and telling them to self report is a no brainer if you know or think that they had been, so is giving their administration penalties inc. fines, no finals etc so that people see justice being done.

Essendon the club just wants to play footy but also protect its own.

Hird thinks he has done nothing wrong, Lance Armstrong style, and so is deflecting and obscuring from the real issue.

At some point Essendon will ex communicate Hird as he is doing them no favours.

The AFL is still trying to protect Essendon and its players but Hird is making it very hard.

The AFL would sooner burn Hird than Essendon.

^^^^ agree with all that.

Essendon have left themselves wide open here...

There are 17 other clubs in the comp.

Hirds aren't stupid. The only explanation I can see for recent events is that Hird (and Essendon) know that infraction notices are imminent and they want to escalate matters and get the AFL into court to discredit the "joint" AFL ASADA investigation to discredit its findings and/or take Demetriou down with them.