Casey Scorpions v Collingwood and Debt Demolition Day

[CBDees 3,162]

So maybe you just don't understand football, so I'll explain it.

Fitness gains in pre-season training are significantly different than what someone would do at training during a finals campaign.

During finals they would likely do lighter sessions so they are fresh for the games, same goes for during regular season. Skill sessions and sufficient running and weights to maintain fitness and strength.

Preseason training is full of high intensity sessions, particularly running and sprinting. These sessions are significant longer and at a much higher intensity than during the season. Both running and weights sessions are more frequent because players don't need to recover for the weekend. These sessions are not replicated during the season. The bulk of our hard-core fitness regime was completed pre Christmas this pre-season past, and after Christmas there was a heavier focus on skills and gamelan. Players who are ready to go at the start of October have three months of this intense training, players who don't start until November have only 2 months of this intense training.

When they talk about young players needing to have a few possessions completed prior to having developed tanks, endurance and strength, this is what they are referring to. During the season players don't normally pick fitness up, unless they are resuming from a lay off, and they are often rested or eased through sessions because off the demand of the games which means that fitness gains are not made.

They can play Xbox every day of the week (and probably do), that has no bearing on their training.

I am missing you here! Surely if they play VFL finals they would be ready to start pre-season at start of October with the rest of the Melbourne FC squad! Admittedly they don't have September off like the rest of their AFL teammates but if you gave them a choice of a month off or winning a Premiership then I am confident that the players who are serious would choose the latter!

[Dr. Gonzo 22,524]

Previously I've been of the thinking that Casey's success or otherwise should not even be a consideration however this year I think it would benefit our young guys to play finals for Casey rather than pull them out. Players play footy to play finals regardless of the level of competition to play the season then get pulled for finals would be demoralising. And if a player gets injured that is the risk you take, injuries can happen anytime even pre-season just ask David Schwarz.

[rjay 23,940]

You can't buy the experience of playing finals football...let me see. I could play finals football with teammates and get the bonding, playing & winning experience that it will bring... or wait a minute I can run a few more laps at Gosch's.

I guess I don't understand football either.

[Pates 9,537]

I am missing you here! Surely if they play VFL finals they would be ready to start pre-season at start of October with the rest of the Melbourne FC squad! Admittedly they don't have September off like the rest of their AFL teammates but if you gave them a choice of a month off or winning a Premiership then I am confident that the players who are serious would choose the latter!

I guess the point is that every year we hear from the GF teams that they've started pre-season later and had to ease the players in, if Casey got through to the granny then it could potentially put a player 3-4 weeks behind in pre-season so they get a proper rest. I think it can be a case by case deal, but Casey are a part of this club and their success can fuel our successes. When Sandy won all those premierships with the help of the likes of Rigoni, Read, and Broady I think it developed a genuine bond between the clubs.

If the players are fit, and willing, then they should play. Hogan is a Casey player this year, I reckon he'd feel he owes it to them to play the year out.

Fitzy was the real screw job on Casey last year, he definitely should've played that final.

[rpfc 27,560]

Some of you are acting as if the MFC has set out to ruin the finals campaigns of Casey/Sandy in the past.

It is never as simple as that.

As Nasher says, some players require surgery to get ready for PS training.

And let's not be so naive to think that it is just the club's interest at heart here.

A good PS sets up the year for players - if you do not have one it puts you on the back foot. Just ask Jack Trengove - who has not had a full pre-season at AFL level I don't believe.

The players themsleves are in a cut throat industry and when November rolls around they want to be in the best condition they can be to compete for their livelihood.

If players are injury free then of course we play them at Casey in the finals but no, some surgeries and clean outs can not wait.

I highly doubt the new coach is going to want to have weeks of PS lost to players because of VFL finals.

That may not be what you want to hear, but there it is.

[deanox 8,682]

I am missing you here! Surely if they play VFL finals they would be ready to start pre-season at start of October with the rest of the Melbourne FC squad! Admittedly they don't have September off like the rest of their AFL teammates but if you gave them a choice of a month off or winning a Premiership then I am confident that the players who are serious would choose the latter!

Collective bargaining agreement says that players must have a certain number of days off between their last match for the season and the start of preseason training (it's about 4 weeks), so if they keep playing they can't start until later.

The rest of the club will be starting pre-season training at the start of October and those sessions will progress in difficulty. If 5 young players miss the start to play finals they will be playing catch up the rest of the season. It is not dissimilar to sending players for season ending surgery with a few steps to go in the AFL season - they could play on but the team won't make finals so it is better they are ready for preseason.

As said previously, this doesn't mean I don't think are a major benefits in getting the players to play finals together, I am just explaining the reasons why the decision makes sense.

[deanox 8,682]

So you think after watching us this year our young players would benefit more from running the tan a few times than playing finals footy?

Daniel Nicholson is generally our best trainer and runner, what do you think of his footy skills and decision making?

Or maybe YOU just don't understand football...

If you had of read my post you would have seen I said that I could see benefit for both approaches. Your ignorant post suggested that the same training benefits were gained from both preseason training and a finals campaign and made a reference to Xbox. If that is going to be the standard of your argument, rather than engaging in a proper discussion and acknowledging benefits of both sides where it's relevant and explaining your position with evidence, you make yourself look pretty silly and ensure that people will treat you like a simpleton who needs things explained.

[Demon Stalwart 255]

Though I can understand both sides of the coin what I would have to weigh up is the benefits that can be gained by a number of Melbourne's Senior list players experiencing the taste of playing Finals football. We are not just talking about games here we re talking Finals games regardless of it Being VFL the build up the experience the strength developed between players especially if they win a Grand Final is Massive .

Even right through junior football that is the case .

Premierships produce lasting friendships and a Mutual bond between those that are on the Field in a Grand Final

My Opinion is considering the state of our current performances and how we can expect this according to Neeld for another 5 years ! I say let them play

Who knows, they may even like it and develop a taste for playing Finals Football.

I think those lucky enough to have the chance should be encouraged to do so

Especially if you truly have the players Mental well being at heart.

[stuie 7,374]

If you had of read my post you would have seen I said that I could see benefit for both approaches. Your ignorant post suggested that the same training benefits were gained from both preseason training and a finals campaign and made a reference to Xbox. If that is going to be the standard of your argument, rather than engaging in a proper discussion and acknowledging benefits of both sides where it's relevant and explaining your position with evidence, you make yourself look pretty silly and ensure that people will treat you like a simpleton who needs things explained.

Ugh... You're thinly veiled insults masquerading as footy posts contribute nothing.

Maybe try talking actual footy instead of filling your posts with comments like "you obviously don't understand footy" or "your ignorant post" or "you make yourself look pretty silly" etc etc...

Play the ball.

Also, the irony of accusing me of not understanding your post when your retort clearly shows you didn't understand mine should not be lost on someone who obivously fancies himself as an intellectual. Feel free to point out to me exactly where I said the training benefits were the same, when in fact I said quite the opposite as far as one benefiting fitness and one benefiting skills.

So many here trip over themselves trying to put themselves forward as superior in footy knowledge when we're all here just to share our opinions.

Edited June 7, 2013 by stuie

[deanox 8,682]

Feel free to point out to me exactly where I said the training benefits were the same,

OK here it is:

Even if they're off for surgery the amount of time out is still the same. They may start training later but they're also playing full games of footy later, and we need all the actual footy practise we can get, especially seeing we're apparently the best training team going around...

and again here:

They're still training and playing finals footy during that 4 weeks, they're not playing xbox...

You are claiming that they will still be training so they won't miss anything they would do during pre-season. Your comment above was in a direct reply to my quote:

In the Neeld era I think the focus has been on fitness in pre-season training. Remember this FD said we'd need 3 pre sesaons to catch up to other clubs, so if we delay someones preseason start by 4 weeks that's an extra month of fitness they lack.

It is pretty clear I was saying that the reason behind going to surgery earlier was because they needed to get back for fitness training. They don't need skills training, they all know how to kick, they need fitness to be able to perform at the top level, to be able to excute the skills under physical pressure and physical and mental stress.

You started the sarcastic crap. The playing the man not the ball was started by you and your comments about playing xbox.

[stuie 7,374]

They don't need skills training

You can go through my posts and take things out of context as much as you like, but it's pretty obvious what I said despite your attempts to try and re-interpret it for your own means.

You're statement above shows how much you know about the current level of our skills.

We're ranked 18th in effective disposals. But you're right, why bother with skills training, Daniel Nicholson is our fittest player, guess that means he's our best too.

[deanox 8,682]

You can go through my posts and take things out of context as much as you like, but it's pretty obvious what I said despite your attempts to try and re-interpret it for your own means.

You're statement above shows how much you know about the current level of our skills.

We're ranked 18th in effective disposals. But you're right, why bother with skills training, Daniel Nicholson is our fittest player, guess that means he's our best too.

I quoted your posts in their entirety, and I also quote the statement that you were replying too. I'm not sure how that can be taking it out of context. How should I have interpreted the statement "They're still training and playing finals footy during that 4 weeks, they're not playing xbox...", if not to mean that both pre-season training and a finals campaign deliver the same benefits?

If you want to talk about taking things out of context, you should consider putting my whole quote in:

They don't need skills training, they all know how to kick, they need fitness to be able to perform at the top level, to be able to excute the skills under physical pressure and physical and mental stress.

This is 100% true. Go and watch Casey and you'll see that the players all kick well and have long uncontested chains there. Then put them in the AFL and they can't hit the side of the barn. It isn't because they don't know how to kick, its because at the step in AFL there is less time to execute, a higher demand on you phyisically (i.e.e if you are unfit you are tired, therefore sloppy) and more pressure mentally. Higher physical fitness will increase our skills in the games better than standing around doing kick to kick will.

The skills will come with confidence, fitness, experience and familiarity. Some don't have great skills - Nicholson is one example, there are others - but most have AFL level skills, or they wouldn't be in the AFL.

[Whispering_Jack 28,010]

Are we really "doing the dirty" on Casey? The Scorpions are aware of the way AFL clubs work these days and fully know of the possibility that some AFL players may not be available in finals for various reasons be they eligibility, the need to go under the knife or contractual reasons.

I made this comment last week in the Casey Scorpions v Sandringham thread:-

What critics of the alignment often fail to understand is that because the MFC has been performing poorly and has had high injury numbers in recent years, we have a higher turnover of players between AFL & VFL teams meaning we get less players qualified for the VFL finals (because they have played more than the required numbers at the more senior level). When you then have a few players who have to go for early surgery to ensure they have a decent pre season the following year (eg Fitzpatrick & Spencer last year) the armchair critics whose understanding of what's going on is only superficial, squeal like stuck pigs that the relationship must therefore be dysfunctional.

If the Fitzpatricks and Spencers of the world missed out on a substantial slab of their preseason because they delayed their surgery, the naysayers would be complaining as well.

I've been reminded that the "worst" example in recent years was about four years ago when Melbourne had an injury list of about 20 players and about eight players were sent off for surgery which was absolutely necessary because it was either impossible for them to play because of injury or unsafe because playing might exacerbate their injuries. They came up against Collingwood VFL whose seniors were also in the finals (and had an injury list of two) and were thrashed. Hardly "doing the dirty".

A good VFL coach will take these things on board and prepare his local listed players accordingly. I thought Brett Lovett did a fantastic job last year with his team and IIRC they had their own injury problems and weren't disgraced in going down in both games which were played in shocking conditions.

[What 18,810]

what a joke this game isn't on the ABC.

Hogan is compulsory viewing for all footy fans.

[KC from Casey 6,593]

Here's the Casey Scorpions team for today:

Backs Taggert Gillies Davis

Half backs Petropoulos, Tynan Panozza

Centreline Strauss Nicholson Jetta

Half forwards Sellar Gawn Gent

Forwards Byrne Hogan Nicholls

Followers Spencer Couch Magner

Interchange Clisby Corry Drew* Hughes J Tynan

Not playing from the original squad: Bail (MFC emergency) Barry Lindsay Pollard Smith Stark Tapscott (MFC) Toumpas (MFC)

[Scipio 5,868]

Here's the Casey Scorpions team for today:

Backs Taggert Gillies Davis

Half backs Petropoulos, Tynan Panozza

Centreline Strauss Nicholson Jetta

Half forwards Sellar Gawn Gent

Forwards Byrne Hogan Nicholls

Followers Spencer Couch Magner

Interchange Clisby Corry Drew* Hughes J Tynan

Not playing from the original squad: Bail (MFC emergency) Barry Lindsay Pollard Smith Stark Tapscott (MFC) Toumpas (MFC)

I'm guessing that's our Tynan named at CHB? I thought he was a midfielder?

[KC from Casey 6,593]

Collingwood starts the better and are 1.1.7 to 0.0.0 and Casey are yet to go inside 50.

[KC from Casey 6,593]

Scorps fight back with two goals. Scorps 2.0.12 to 1.1.7.

[KC from Casey 6,593]

Max Gawn puts Casey two goals up after a free.

[Biffen 12,365]

Great to see Sellar has found a role. Hope he can hold his spot there.

[Rocknroll 923]

Is this game on the radio?

[KC from Casey 6,593]

Goal to Jesse Hogan and Casey now lead by 20 points.

[KC from Casey 6,593]

Goal to Jake Spencer but Pies answer immediately 33 - 13 late in the quarter.

[KC from Casey 6,593]

Maybe it's the Tynan named in the forward pocket?

Quarter Time: Casey Scorpions 5.3.33 to Collingwood 2.1.13.

Goals Byrnes Gawn Hogan Magner Spencer

[KC from Casey 6,593]

Goals hard to come by and the Scorps not taking advantage of some undisciplined play from Collingwood. Scorpions 35-14.