Do we "eat our young"?

[Dees2014 2,377]

One of the accusations hurled at Melbourne in the wake of the disastrous start to the season is that we have a unique ability "to eat our young", in other words destroy young talent rather than nurture it. I must say there is very strong evidence that this is the case.

Over the last five years we have drafted or traded for about a dozen first round draft picks. Sure the picks we chose may not have been elite, but they all had elite skills when we drafted them, but in many cases we did not get elite performance out of them. Why is this so?

I think it is because we are too impatient and are more than willing to throw these young men to the wolves in the hope of an instant solution.

Take Jack Watts. Watts was a school boy when he was in his first year. He should have been nurtured and developed and played all year at school and Casey. But what did we do? We played him mid year in our biggest game of the year, Queen's Birthday. Their was also a promotion going to the effect "walk to the "G" and watch watch Jack Watts be BOG". This promo was officially sanctioned and even had half the Board and Executive (including Jim Stynes) taking part. What happened to Watts that day. I remember seeing him come on the ground half way through the first quarter. As soon as he went near the ball he was crunched by three magpie players and that continued for the rest of the match. Almost from that day forward there has been a continuous "hate Watts" thread on here, and there still is. If you want to get out the foulest bile on this site just mention Watts name on here. In the last couple of years, the general press has picked up a similar theme.

Now take Jimmy toumpas. It has started again in here. This kid, barely 18, and moved over here from his home state of SA and reportedly away from his very close family, has had to put up with reading on this site that he is hopeless, we should have drafted Oliver Wines, etc etc. now according to his coaches, and himself, he is down on confidence and is going to try to redeem it from Casey. I suggest that we should be nurturing the sublime talents of Watts and Toumpas. If you don't believe they are sublime, have a look at their junior highlight reels.

I watching the quarter and three quarter time huddles for the Essendon / eagles game on Foxtel a couple of weeks ago, and they had the camera in close up on James Heard. He has a very different persona to most coaches, especially MFC coaches. He is clearly very supportive of his players, almost fatherly. No ranting, no raving. And look at the result of that game and how it was achieved.

In closing, I should point out that one of the greats of all time, Michael Tuck, played well over 100 games in the a hawks seconds before he played his first senior game. There are are many many others in a similar bracket. I suggest if we had have been more patient we would now be reaping the rewards of the first rounders we have let go: McLean, Gysberts, Maloney (more because we could not tolerate differences), Jolly, Morton, Thompson, we can all think of many more.

Unless we start to get this right, and develop a nurturing environment rather than a hostile one to young talent, how will we be able to keep a unique talent like Jesse Hogan, when his contract is up in three years time when every club in Ausralia will be after him.

[Carrot Top 947]

Take Jack Watts. Watts was a school boy when he was in his first year. He should have been nurtured and developed and played all year at school and Casey. But what did we do? We played him mid year in our biggest game of the year, Queen's Birthday. Their was also a promotion going to the effect "walk to the "G" and watch watch Jack Watts be BOG". This promo was officially sanctioned and even had half the Board and Executive (including Jim Stynes) taking part. What happened to Watts that day. I remember seeing him come on the ground half way through the first quarter. As soon as he went near the ball he was crunched by three magpie players and that continued for the rest of the match. Almost from that day forward there has been a continuous "hate Watts" thread on here, and there still is. If you want to get out the foulest bile on this site just mention Watts name on here. In the last couple of years, the general press has picked up a similar theme.

And the media harped on and on and on about how he was the #1 pick and yet we hadn't played him. You don't see them reminding us of that fact. He was damned no matter what we did. We might not have handled it the best, but we were one small part of the circus that went on about that boy.

[Pates 9,660]

And the media harped on and on and on about how he was the #1 pick and yet we hadn't played him. You don't see them reminding us of that fact. He was damned no matter what we did. We might not have handled it the best, but we were one small part of the circus that went on about that boy.

You are correct with that, he had had multiple 30+ possie games but we didn't play him and they kept asking why. It was certainly a mistake to use him as a promo tool but certainly we were damned either way by the media.

I agree though with Jimmy. Pressure and expectation needs to be lifted off him to allow him to grow and mature. He's played in very successful sides all his life, playing in 3 games for a combined losing margine of 300+ points would be a massive shock.

We shouldn't play him until he puts in a couple of good games at VFL.

[The heart beats true 18,128]

Do we eat our young?

As I said to my sister over the weekend 'I like babies, but I couldn't eat a whole one'.

I'll be here all week folks. Try the veal. Tip your waitress. Thank you, and Good Night!

[PJ_12345 1,098]

2007:

10 picks, 5 still active, 2 still with MFC

Note: Morton #4 (West Coast - dont need to comment on performance), Martin #3 pre season draft (Brisbane - never should have drafted him), Maric #21 (played 21 games, gone)

2008

10 picks, 7 still active, 6 still with MFC

Note: Watts #1 (Bennell was pick #35, played better footy and same amount of games), Blease was priorty picked at #17, Jurrah #1 pre season draft

2009

9 picks, 7 still active, 5 still with MFC

Note: Scully priority picked at #1 (GWS - playing poorly there), Gysberts #11 (North - played 19 games since drafted), Tapscott #18 (been playing better this year), MaDonald #1 pre season draft (4th season and longest consecutive games played has been 5. Loyal and a leader - why isnt he playing this year?)

2010

12 picks, 7 still active, 7 still with MFC

Note: Cook #12 (bad player, highest of our picks, never played a game at AFL, gone), Davis #50 (yet to debut, thyroid issue), Evans #31 rookie draft (one of our best players this year), Howe #33 (compare to Cook at #12 - one of our most promissing players + Evans)

2011

7 picks, 5 still active, 5 still with MFC

Note: Magner #42 rookie draft (been great and played second most games of all players drafted in 2011), Taggart #36 (played 1 game, back issue in 2011, MFC's highest pick), Sellar #52 (played most games of all players drafted in 2011 - only 19), Sheahan #6 rookie draft (gone, not good enough)

2012

10 picks, 10 still active, 10 still with MFC

Note: Hogan #2 mini draft (future investment), Viney f/s rule #26 (played well, 4 games), Jones #52 (played most games of all players drafted in 2012 - 5), Terlich #68 (been ok)

There is alot more to who was drafted, but this is an interesting way to look at it.

2010 was our worst year, extremely lucky with Howe and Evans... extremely lucky

[Dr. Gonzo 24,231]

And the media harped on and on and on about how he was the #1 pick and yet we hadn't played him. You don't see them reminding us of that fact. He was damned no matter what we did. We might not have handled it the best, but we were one small part of the circus that went on about that boy.

We can't control what the media say but we can control how we treat our players.

I agree with the OP it's definitely an aspect o our lack of development and seems to be ingrained in our culture where we keep trying to anoint a teenage rookie as the saviour of he club. Was disappointed when McLardy referred to Hogan in his letter to supporters after the Essendon game.

[dee-luded 2,959]

And the media harped on and on and on about how he was the #1 pick and yet we hadn't played him. You don't see them reminding us of that fact. He was damned no matter what we did. We might not have handled it the best, but we were one small part of the circus that went on about that boy.

lets lots of ways we could have gotten by giving in to the Media Hype...

giving in to the popular opinion, is not often the best way forward.

Jack Watts should have been kept out of the seniors,,, except maybe for a cameo at the end of the season, in a low profile game...

we should have kept him on a slow burn, & even played him down back @ Casey for blocks of games, to learn the defensive & desperation side of things.

I still think now, he should go back to learn these things, and to develop the linking of play & run & carry.

imo his general field play is ordinary at best. but he has elite kicking, & decision making is good, but Too slow.

[The Chazz 4,077]

PJ - 2010 wasn't our worst year, 2009 was by a long, long way. $cully, Trengove, Gysberts and Tapscott all taken with picks <20. This core group should be still playing together, and would be now in to their 4th season at the club. We have 2 left, and are both a long way from where they should be given the time they have been in the system.

In every respect, season 2009 has hurt this club so much, and we are still paying for it today (ie tanking fine).

[Guest]

I hate to say this...

These boys would have been much better off if we had held onto some of our senior players (Junior, Bruce, McLean, Miller, Robbo, Wheatley, Whelan. Hell, keep Jeff White around for another year to play as a forward pocket!) for a little longer rather than a***holing them out the door with a Casio watch and a Windsor Smith lodged between their butt cheeks. Others will come on here and say how each of those deserved to be cut and will give the usual diatribe about 'spuds' but the huge turnover of players had a ripple effect.

1) It created a culture of mistrust between the higher ups and the playing group. Why did Cameron Bruce leave? He saw the way blokes like Junior, Robbo and Wrecker were treated and thought that management would be likely to treat him like a piece of meat as well. Thanks for your ten years, now F off. I remember at the time there being some criticism as to how the club handled Jimmy's retirement. It almost seemed sparkling compared to how we handled these blokes: Jimmy was told he was welcome to stay on as he had earned his spot at the club but the chances of him being number one ruckman were low as they were keen to play Jeff White in the ruck.

2) We have all said this before but blokes like Junior WERE needed to help the younger generation and to tell them what it was all about. Junior is an upstanding individual and if there was ever a self made player, he is it. He didn't get to where he was because he was naturally talented. He got to where he was because he worked his guts out.

I bet we will be back here next year after Jesse Hogan comes through and we will be carping on about how he is a 'spud' (along with Moneyball recruiting, that word/phrase needs to be banned from this forum) and we will be looking at the next draft in the vain hope that salvation will come through that.

Facts are, and I say this with no vindictiveness against any individual, we are looking at a 5-10 year rebuild now. Throwing the baby out with the bath water was the stupidest thing we have done. Look at other clubs who have rebuilt in the past such as St. Kilda or the Bulldogs (clubs in our demographic). Did they tell Brad Johnson or Robert Harvey to nick off thereby alienating them from the club? No, they kept them around for as long as they could as they had earned the right to make their own calls on their careers. Shame we don't have the same respect for our senior players...

[Guest]

Take Jack Watts. Watts was a school boy when he was in his first year. He should have been nurtured and developed and played all year at school and Casey. But what did we do? We played him mid year in our biggest game of the year, Queen's Birthday. Their was also a promotion going to the effect "walk to the "G" and watch watch Jack Watts be BOG". This promo was officially sanctioned and even had half the Board and Executive (including Jim Stynes) taking part.

My god....

I was overseas at the time so I wasn't privy to the lead in to the game but please don't tell me they did that.

Amateur hour. This wasn't Collingwood of the late 90's we were playing against. It was Collingwood who would go onto a preliminary final that year and a grand final the next.

[daisycutter 29,619]

In closing, I should point out that one of the greats of all time, Michael Tuck, played well over 100 games in the a hawks seconds before he played his first senior game. There are are many many others in a similar bracket. I suggest if we had have been more patient we would now be reaping the rewards of the first rounders we have let go: McLean, Gysberts, Maloney (more because we could not tolerate differences), Jolly, Morton, Thompson, we can all think of many more.

Tuck was a skinny ruck-rover with great stamina as evidenced by the length of his career. To date, Tuck is the VFL/AFL games record holder, with 426 games, but his durability is not only reflected in the number of senior games he played, but in having played fifty games in the reserves before becoming a regular senior player.^[4] Tuck did poll 120 Brownlow votes for his career, but never got anywhere near winning the award.

[Guest]

In closing, I should point out that one of the greats of all time, Michael Tuck, played well over 100 games in the a hawks seconds before he played his first senior game. There are are many many others in a similar bracket. I suggest if we had have been more patient we would now be reaping the rewards of the first rounders we have let go: McLean, Gysberts, Maloney (more because we could not tolerate differences), Jolly, Morton, Thompson, we can all think of many more.

>Tuck was a skinny ruck-rover with great stamina as evidenced by the length of his career. To date, Tuck is the VFL/AFL games record holder, with 426 games, but his durability is not only reflected in the number of senior games he played, but in having played fifty games in the reserves before becoming a regular senior player.^[4] Tuck did poll 120 Brownlow votes for his career, but never got anywhere near winning the award.

I think the bigger point was that Tucky served an apprenticeship in the Magoos first then moved into the senior team when he had kicked the door in to get a game (which is the way it should be).

[dee-luded 2,959]

My god....

I was overseas at the time so I wasn't privy to the lead in to the game but please don't tell me they did that.

Amateur hour. This wasn't Collingwood of the late 90's we were playing against. It was Collingwood who would go onto a preliminary final that year and a grand final the next.

exactly & this is why we need to step back with JW now to get him armoured up, back @ Casey.. he has skipped so many lessons because of his skills, he hasn't learnt the basics.

he's gone from school, straight to the head office, & missed working on the shop floor.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,231]

My god....

I was overseas at the time so I wasn't privy to the lead in to the game but please don't tell me they did that.

Amateur hour. This wasn't Collingwood of the late 90's we were playing against. It was Collingwood who would go onto a preliminary final that year and a grand final the next.

Mate not only that but before the team ran onto the ground they had the cameras trained on Watts in the change rooms and coming up the race (all being shown on the big screen) and introduced over the loudspeaker at the G as "the Melbourne Football Club and number 1 draft pick Jack Watts" (or something to that effect) - it was incredible just how poorly they managed his debut. He was also on the back page of the Herald Sun during the week all used as a marketing ploy to ensure we got a crowd over 60k as Demetriou was threatening to take Queens Bday off us if we couldn't draw a crowd.

In respect of your prior post re: the moving on off our senior blokes I am happy to say I am one of those who got that completely wrong. I agree they should have been kept on and used to mentor and shield our young players through until they had matured however at the time I absolutely thought it was the correct thing to get rid of them all and load up on draft picks. I don't think I or the club were alone on that either it was a bit of conventional wisdom at the time however it is clear that that route did untold damage to the club and also the young kids coming through who have had to shoulder way too much responsibility before their time. For the odd one it may work out and they relish it but for most I think they are more likely to burn out and crumble under the weight of expectation. We thought it was as easy as plug and play and all you had to do was get as many high draft picks as possible and pump games into them and in 4 years they'd be a powerhouse - it is now clear that was utterly utterly wrong and we need bigger bodies and experienced minds on the field and training track to help these kids through. That is why I understand Neeld's strategy in recruiting the experienced guys even if they haven't worked out as he'd hoped.

[cowboy_from_hell 2,390]

We all hope and pray for a messiah to come our way because we have sucked for so long. Watts,viney and hogan have all been talked up as gods who will strike fear into the competition. We are desperate for a champion to drag us out of hell. I wish we could talk about how a new player fits into our team structures and will contribute whilst developing but it's very difficult to do that in a very ordinary team.

[daisycutter 29,619]

I think the bigger point was that Tucky served an apprenticeship in the Magoos first then moved into the senior team when he had kicked the door in to get a game (which is the way it should be).

of course colin

it was just in the interests of accuracy

[Guest]

exactly & this is why we need to step back with JW now to get him armoured up, back @ Casey.. he has skipped so many lessons because of his skills, he hasn't learnt the basics.

he's gone from school, straight to the head office, & missed working on the shop floor.

I like the idea dee-luded. While you come up with some stuff that could be considered a little left of center, you do make the occasional good comment. I would say that would be the logical thing to do (though Jack isn't half as bad as some make him out to be, he has been guaranteed consistent games because of his draft number) but I think like a lot of things, ego will get in the way. Jack won't want to go back to the ressies to work on those things. I think the best thing we can do for the lad is (if free agent or salary cap rules allow it) to put him on a sign and trade deal. He will never be the player he could be at Melbourne as sad as that is.

[Guest]

Mate not only that but before the team ran onto the ground they had the cameras trained on Watts in the change rooms and coming up the race (all being shown on the big screen) and introduced over the loudspeaker at the G as "the Melbourne Football Club and number 1 draft pick Jack Watts" (or something to that effect) - it was incredible just how poorly they managed his debut. He was also on the back page of the Herald Sun during the week all used as a marketing ploy to ensure we got a crowd over 60k as Demetriou was threatening to take Queens Bday off us if we couldn't draw a crowd.

In respect of your prior post re: the moving on off our senior blokes I am happy to say I am one of those who got that completely wrong. I agree they should have been kept on and used to mentor and shield our young players through until they had matured however at the time I absolutely thought it was the correct thing to get rid of them all and load up on draft picks. I don't think I or the club were alone on that either it was a bit of conventional wisdom at the time however it is clear that that route did untold damage to the club and also the young kids coming through who have had to shoulder way too much responsibility before their time. For the odd one it may work out and they relish it but for most I think they are more likely to burn out and crumble under the weight of expectation. We thought it was as easy as plug and play and all you had to do was get as many high draft picks as possible and pump games into them and in 4 years they'd be a powerhouse - it is now clear that was utterly utterly wrong and we need bigger bodies and experienced minds on the field and training track to help these kids through. That is why I understand Neeld's strategy in recruiting the experienced guys even if they haven't worked out as he'd hoped.

Re: Jack Watts. Stop, just stop. I was living in Japan at the time and heard bits and pieces about it but that is the absolute height of incompetence. I agree with dee-luded's call. Sure, play him for a few games at the end of the year when there is little on the line but don't put him in against a top 4 team on broadcast TV in front of 60k at the G. Not only did it distort his view of what AFL footy is all about, it makes us look like clowns as well.

Re: Senior players. I will say I wasn't as annoyed then as I am now. I thought that some of these blokes needed to be moved on but I too was wrong. I was skeptical about some parts of 'list management', especially the belief we HAD to get picks 1 and 2 to be anything but I thought some of the older blokes needed to be moved on.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,242]

Of course we don't eat our young. Foolish thread.

Fried placenta is OK.

[Dees2014 2,377]

I hate to say this...

These boys would have been much better off if we had held onto some of our senior players (Junior, Bruce, McLean, Miller, Robbo, Wheatley, Whelan. Hell, keep Jeff White around for another year to play as a forward pocket!) for a little longer rather than a***holing them out the door with a Casio watch and a Windsor Smith lodged between their butt cheeks. Others will come on here and say how each of those deserved to be cut and will give the usual diatribe about 'spuds' but the huge turnover of players had a ripple effect.

1) It created a culture of mistrust between the higher ups and the playing group. Why did Cameron Bruce leave? He saw the way blokes like Junior, Robbo and Wrecker were treated and thought that management would be likely to treat him like a piece of meat as well. Thanks for your ten years, now F off. I remember at the time there being some criticism as to how the club handled Jimmy's retirement. It almost seemed sparkling compared to how we handled these blokes: Jimmy was told he was welcome to stay on as he had earned his spot at the club but the chances of him being number one ruckman were low as they were keen to play Jeff White in the ruck.

2) We have all said this before but blokes like Junior WERE needed to help the younger generation and to tell them what it was all about. Junior is an upstanding individual and if there was ever a self made player, he is it. He didn't get to where he was because he was naturally talented. He got to where he was because he worked his guts out.

I bet we will be back here next year after Jesse Hogan comes through and we will be carping on about how he is a 'spud' (along with Moneyball recruiting, that word/phrase needs to be banned from this forum) and we will be looking at the next draft in the vain hope that salvation will come through that.

Facts are, and I say this with no vindictiveness against any individual, we are looking at a 5-10 year rebuild now. Throwing the baby out with the bath water was the stupidest thing we have done. Look at other clubs who have rebuilt in the past such as St. Kilda or the Bulldogs (clubs in our demographic). Did they tell Brad Johnson or Robert Harvey to nick off thereby alienating them from the club? No, they kept them around for as long as they could as they had earned the right to make their own calls on their careers. Shame we don't have the same respect for our senior players...

Good post. I think the issue of getting rid of mentors too early has been critical. One thing you can say about Maloney was he was a hard trainer, a hard at it mid fielder (desperately needed at the club now), but someone with some individuality about him - something which is never tolerated at the conformist Neeld coached Melbourne. Oh and by the way we might as well have lost two top 5 players when he left as the Russian is now half the player he was when Maloney was around.

Who are the role models for Viney, toumpas, Bleese, tapscott, howe and yes Watts? No wonder Schwartz and Lyon are getting so frustrated. And when we do get a superstar eg hogan, we will not be able to give him a reason to stay.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Dees2014