PLAYING TEAMS INTO FORM

[Dee Fan 3,247]

we picked everyone exactly where they were supposed to be picked, give or take a couple of positions

perhaps they never made it because of the disadvantages of being on the MFC list, perhaps they never would have made it at any club, we'll never know

whatver the deal is, there is no excuse ever for supporters of the club to have the knives out so early in their journey

have you ever stopped to think that maybe this hypercritical clubbashing attitude of you and many here actually permeates onto the team and makes things worse?

Here we go again, it's like we have no independent thought at the MFC, if others thought he should go there we just automatically pick him, wow it's that easy is it? Just pick up the paper look forEmma Quaile's phantom draft, log on to big footy, all to easy.

I would have thought that we employ people to do our own work for us and I guess we did. Now what have they left us with; the worst midfield in the competition and a heap of high draft picks that failed. It's funny how some of you guys say "other clubs missed them too" but the thing is someone smarter than us picked them up and some other good players along the way and we got jack [censored].

But you can't and never will see it and neither will the club, buy the time Toumpass is ready we probably won't have a club or he will be so sick of losing he will [censored] off like others have and will.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,302]

I have no problem with Hogan and hopefully he'll be a long term player at the club, but you know the old saying about one swallow etc.

I would love to have had Darling and Wines out there and half a dozen other players we've overlooked, so we could recruit tall skinny kids that remain just that after 5 years, tall skinny kids. And now we don't even have most of them any more, Gysberts, Cook and Morton, one look at the frames of these kids would tell you they were never going to bulk up.

We've got Hogan, but how many have we lost because they were simply not good enough.

I agree but that was done under a prior coach, FD and recruiting manager. So the changes have been made we just need to wait for them to bear fruit.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

why did we only lose by 28 then

if having a huge number of disposals is so damn important why did we only lose by 28

why why why robbie

Simple, we shouldn't have lost, we were playing a side that's had their arse kicked and had 6 teenagers in their side but even still they beat us and it should have been by a lot more. If they had a few of their missing players back it would have been.

They should have put us away and a more experienced side would have slaughtered us today.

But as long as you're happy to get within 4 goals of a very ordinary side.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I agree but that was done under a prior coach, FD and recruiting manager. So the changes have been made we just need to wait for them to bear fruit.

Hogan aside it remains to be seen how the rest will turn out and I'd have to say that on our track record I'm not confident.

Barry worries me, Rodan Pederson Gillies and Byrnes are a mistake and will do absolutely nothing to help the club Sellar looks as if he may be another one who will be gone at years end. Daws is injury prone and has been on the injury list here and at Collingwood for quite a while, Terlich can get the ball but makes some dreadful errors. Magner is on the rookie list and we need him in the side to help Jones but we have loaded up the primary list with spuds so we can't elevate him; who would you rather Magner or Gillies?

I'm not confident about the viability of the club, we stumble from one crisis to the next, we recruit poorly, we can't develop those we recruit and some of the supporters think we're ok, wow.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Really???? I repeat this earlier post just in case you didn't see it the first time:

For those that think we did OK I give you this:

The Lions finished with 418 disposals – their fifth-most disposals ever recorded in a game.

This is not the Lions of triple premiership fame but the Lions with 6 teenagers in their side compared to our ----------- none.

Zero pressure on them all day. F'n hopeless.

Also....

Contested Possessions

Lions 150

Demons 119

[Dee Fan 3,247]

can't wait for that, we'll lose comfortably next week, and in his first game back Dawes will get limited, poor quality service from the midfield

watch all the selfloathing clubbashers get their teeth stuck into that one

just like the mistake of recruiting Byrnes, who has probably been our best player in the last 3 weeks

That says it all, you think Byrnes has been one of our better players over the last three weeks, says a lot for the rest of them if you are right, which of course you're not.

[Pates 9,660]

Here we go again, it's like we have no independent thought at the MFC, if others thought he should go there we just automatically pick him, wow it's that easy is it? Just pick up the paper look forEmma Quaile's phantom draft, log on to big footy, all to easy.

I would have thought that we employ people to do our own work for us and I guess we did. Now what have they left us with; the worst midfield in the competition and a heap of high draft picks that failed. It's funny how some of you guys say "other clubs missed them too" but the thing is someone smarter than us picked them up and some other good players along the way and we got jack [censored].

But you can't and never will see it and neither will the club, buy the time Toumpass is ready we probably won't have a club or he will be so sick of losing he will [censored] off like others have and will.

Bulls---, there's a reason why people say anyone else would've picked then in that position. It's because it's true. Not because Emma Quale and Co. do a phantom draft and say this is where she expects them to be picked, because we have people going around the country to U18 teams checking them out and then picking them on what THEY have seen. Do you really honestly believe that we pick players because that's who other teams and football commentators think we should pick?

We have a lot of grunt players with average disposal, Toumpas has been rated as one of the best kicks in the draft. He is also athletic and has been playing SANFL so can cope against heavier bodies.

Does Wines look like a good player? Yes. Would he be the difference right now? No. Can Toumpas become a good player? Hell yes. But we as supporters need to stop looking at these kids as messiahs and just back the F off if they are struggling.

Honestly who'd want to be picked by Melbourne with impatient supportes like us?

[stuie 7,374]

Also....

Contested Possessions

Lions 150

Demons 119

It's more the uncontested possessions I worry about.

Shows we have no pressure and the zone is NOT working.

[P-man 13,366]

This thread ought to close. Delete all posts other than this one.

Thank you, C&B. Seriously, thank you.

Mate, perhaps we can create a sub forum for you, Curry and co, where you can spend your time agreeing with each other, and talk about how all those who see significant issues with on field performance that are NOT being rectified as alarmist morons. No sorry, what are those words you like to throw around all the time? "Stupid, reactionary crap". One has to question just how poorly this side has to perform for you to think that maybe, just maybe, we don't have the right coach to lead us out of this ditch we find ourselves in. I'm thinking nothing less than a 100 point belting by the Bulldogs would suffice. Oh wait, no it wouldn't, they beat Brisbane, silly me...always a loophole I haven't thought of.

As for perspective on this match, yet again in excess of 100 less possessions than our opponent, 12 of the top 14 players on the ground being from the opposition. Nothing too unfamiliar under a Neeld side. Beaten convincingly in centre clearances again, 21-10, with Brisbane missing two of their best midfielders, if not their best. As for this persistence with zone defence, clearly the players either don't understand it, can't execute it, or it just doesn't [censored] work.

Some respectability added in the last 10 minutes masked what was another resounding defeat against a weakened team that was just HUMILIATED last week by North, but allows people to apparently close their eyes for most of the match and point to the final margin as evidence of great improvement. I mean [censored] spare me, please.

Anyhow, when we cop the mother of all hidings against Carlton next week, I look forward to what excuses can be rolled out to enable Neeld to keep his job while this club remains lead footed at the bottom. Remember to take a leaf out of Mark's book: "Development phase". When in doubt, "development phase". Works a charm.

[waynewussell 6,241]

Byrnes has certainly been in our best for the past two games. So I think that statement stands up pretty bloody well! Next...

[Demoneyes 562]

I see another cleanout at year end whether we like it or not! And yes there will be names some of us don't want to see go. But as someone said, we have a new recruiting department now so lets just cross our fingers and hope for the best!

[waynewussell 6,241]

Here's a few observations possibly not mentioned above.

Brisbane beat us by 61 points in the Gabba game last year.

Bail misses too many gettable goals and that is his biggest weakness.

Howe didn't do enough in the second half.

Matt Jones got his hands on it a lot, but rushed it a bit today... still amongst our better players.

McGrath and Merrett alwas rag-doll us and get away with murder in the packs.

Thought the umpire was excellent with Flash after he flew the flag on behalf of Tappy.

Frawley was good today without being a clear winner.

N Jones was disappointing... seemed to accept being tagged out too easily.

Watts did what he always has... finds a way to take a few closely contested marks and kicks them straight from any angle. We need him forward with Clark and Dawes out.

If Max gets a run at it without injury he is going to be awesome.

Sylvia is having a consistent patch that should be applauded.

Pederson is a tall back option when we are crying out for one.

[stuie 7,374]

Here's a few observations possibly not mentioned above.

Brisbane beat us by 61 points in the Gabba game last year.

Ah yes, Simon Black and Daniel Rich had 26 and 24 that day, how'd they go today?........

Stef Martin had a good game too, how'd he go today?

Brisbane actually had more scoring shots today btw, we had about the same.

[Juk3b0x 166]

Was at the game today and to be fair I think the scoreline flattered us. We got absolutely towelled up in the midfield; it was easily the most frustrating thing to watch how easily Brisbane cleared it out at every centre bounce and even at stoppages around the ground. The main feeling I had all day was that there was so very little pressure on Brisbane when they had the ball, it went end to end easily, and most worrying was their ability to move the ball from the boundary on their HF to an unmaned player on the CHF. Down the end of the ground I was sitting it happened at least half a dozen times and I was ready to pull my hair out watching it happen over and over again. Yet in comparison when Melbourne had the ball we seemed to always be under pressure, rushed and indecisive. We kicked into the man on the mark or were spoiled a number of times because we hesitated in kicking the ball. At stoppages Brisbane were in a training drill, and no matter which direction the ball seemed to get tapped out they had the spare man with another player running off them perfectly where I didn't see more that 1 or 2 examples of that from us for the whole day where I was sitting. As my old man said watching "(Melbourne) really have nothing that gets me excited about the season ahead."

As for the standout players I've seen a bit of critism for Terlich but if it weren't for his fists in contests all day long the score would have been so so much worse; he made ground to every contest and saved many sure set shot opportunities. It's hard to shake off or describe the ease with which Brisbane got the ball inside 50 (training drill?) but Garland and Terlich more than did their job given the speed that the ball was coming in at times, and despite some poor clearances from him the effort there in defence from what I saw was very commendable, even the Brisbane supporters around me were giving him raps.

Tapscot was good, pushed hard to every contest, was a real terrier and competed well even when outnumber (which seemed to happen so often), laid on bumps and some crunching tackles but also looked dangerous at times in the forward line.

Sylvia was exciting for most of the day and I just hope he can string together games were he honestly looks like he's trying as he did today. Busted through a number of tackles, took a couple of good grabs and on a day when disposal was a problem seemed created a lot of drive and opportunity, I was impressed where he usually leaves me questioning his desire.

Gawn is a giant and when he was up forward looked dangerous and competed really well for the mark. I couldn't comment on the rucking because whether or not we won the taps we were quite embarrassingly walked over in the middle and at stoppages given no Black and no Rich.

Byrnes got more footy than any other Melbourne player today and used it fairly well, except of course for that gift basket kicking into the man on the mark. I haven't taken a lot of notice of Byrnes so far but he seemed to play a solid roll and provided a constant target which not a lot of others did.

Though Bail was really exciting and showed a lot in the first part of the game, was agile and hit contests well, winning his own ball and feeding off but I couldn't comment further on his game as most of his possession I think was picked up on the other side of the ground to where I was, as some have eluded to him burning team mates to have shots on goal that I didn't see.

McDonald was giving away so much height today, that despite some of his woeful disposal its hard to blame the guy when that matchup was never going to work, he looked dwarfed. Had a few good runs along the defensive boundary when team mates shepparded

Rodan had a fair bit of dash but didn't do too much else, though I did note for a 'seasoned' player under pressure he coughed the ball up a number of times, or didn't dispose of the ball to any postive effect to a team mate, giving off 1 complete hospital ball after he let himself get in a bad position that ended up in a turn over.

Speaking of woeful disposal, he's a personal favourite as we share a last name but it was painful to see Grimes turn the ball over so often today in that crucial first or second kick out of defence. I see that reports have him down as one of Melbournes best and that I know he was fairly present all around the ground but myself and the family groaned more than a few times from his costly turnovers which resulted in goals and I found it hard to forgive him for those.

The only thing I saw of Pederson all day was him running to and from the interchange. Same with Blease. He had an exciting run early, got done holding the ball not long after, and then I didn't see him again until the announcement he'd been subbed.

Howe presented well all day but given how he loves to leap there were a few opportunities in the first quarter right beside my spot on the boundary when he was in good position to take a hanger from the back and chose instead to compete on the ground or not go in for the mark at all.

Nate Jones was well held today and never really got into the game, though even A lister midfielders have days they can't shake a tag. When we rely so heavily on the guy in the middle I hoped he would fire or that someone else would stand up but it never really eventuated.

Others have said it before, Jamar tapped out well today ... to Moloney. Didn't do much of anything when he went forward but did take a decent pack mark and goal, but he did add a bit of height and took his other good mark in defence that would have been a likely goal opportunity for Brisbane. Didn't see too much else from him other than that...

Watts was a pleasure and a pain at different times of the day. In defence I honestly now agree with the perspective that he seems lazy at times. Twice while I watched his man made space on him while he seemed to be just ball watching in the middle of the defensive 50 and his direct opponent on both occasions marked inside 50 at CHF after recieving it from boundary when Brisbane were looking to centre it. That said when he went forward he took some fantastic grabs under a bit of pressure, and he held his man off really well to protect the space in front of him a number of times resulting in him being able to push off and get to the ball first. His goal from the boundary was sensational. Not sure what to grade his day at given the contrasting performances, would his enjoyment of his role be the reason for his lethargy?

Davey didn't get much of a chance, tried to take a hanger but forgot to put his hands out instead of using them to climb onto 2 defenders shoulders. Had the chance to do one of his bread and butter chase down and tackles in the last as well but doesn't seem to have that extra gear he once did and couldn't catch his man.

Thats all from me, there was a bit to like about the first quarter but from there on it just felt like we were "hanging in there", that Brisbane were having a training drill at times and not putting us away when they had the chance and most of all that we got completely torn up in the midfield!

Edited April 28, 2013 by Juk3b0x

[Adam The God 30,420]

Positives:

* The continued form of Evans. Knows where to go, has great skills. How was that pass on his wrong foot to Watts?

* Garland beat his man again and backed up his GWS form.

* Watts showed a little bit. Attacked some of the contests. His sublime kicking for goal didn't surprise me. Has to play forward again next week.

* Despite the negative talk on here, I thought Trengove's game for the majority was actually really impressive, minus one or two hiccups here and there.

* Gawn's kicking for goal and general work rate.

* Some of our early ball movement, particularly in the first quarter.

* Some of Matt Jones' stoppage work.

Negatives:

* The work rate is still abysmal. Particularly by our midfield.

* The zonal stuff is not working. Get rid of it. Teach our players to play one on one football.

* The stoppage set ups are STILL yet to be addressed. This makes say a Jordie McKenzie look even slower.

* Sylvia can't get it done again. Went missing for large patches and struggled to influence the game.

* Tom McDonald worked himself into the game and had a reasonably second half. His first half was appalling.

* Lazy turn overs - a number of kicks into the man on the mark. One certainly directly resulted in a Brisbane goal.

* Jamar's inability to both tap past his feet and create a contest outside of the centre square. He kicked one long, good goal (two contested marks in two weeks for the first time since probably 2010), but his lack of pace consistently makes him a liability around the ground.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Bulls---, there's a reason why people say anyone else would've picked then in that position. It's because it's true. Not because Emma Quale and Co. do a phantom draft and say this is where she expects them to be picked, because we have people going around the country to U18 teams checking them out and then picking them on what THEY have seen. Do you really honestly believe that we pick players because that's who other teams and football commentators think we should pick?

We have a lot of grunt players with average disposal, Toumpas has been rated as one of the best kicks in the draft. He is also athletic and has been playing SANFL so can cope against heavier bodies.

Does Wines look like a good player? Yes. Would he be the difference right now? No. Can Toumpas become a good player? Hell yes. But we as supporters need to stop looking at these kids as messiahs and just back the F off if they are struggling.

Honestly who'd want to be picked by Melbourne with impatient supportes like us?

In three out of four years we picked tall skinny kids as our first pick in the draft, Watts, Morton, Scully and Cook; three are gone and the other is struggling, in the end we had to trade the pick away for an established player. Toumpass may or may not be a good player; Wines has shown already that he will be a very good player.

So was Maric, so was Strauss; it doesn't matter how well you kick it, you have to get it first. Are you suggesting that Wines can't kick?

It's not just Wines that we've missed out on, there are so many more that we've recruited that are simply not good enough; most sides have players that just don't work out, but we have too many and if you look at the body shape of some of those we've selected you can see why.

[CBDees 3,167]

Watts was a pleasure and a pain at different times of the day. In defence I honestly now agree with the perspective that he seems lazy at times. Twice while I watched his man made space on him while he seemed to be just ball watching in the middle of the defensive 50 and his direct opponent on both occasions marked inside 50 at CHF after recieving it from boundary when Brisbane were looking to centre it. That said when he went forward he took some fantastic grabs under a bit of pressure, and he held his man off really well to protect the space in front of him a number of times resulting in him being able to push off and get to the ball first. His goal from the boundary was sensational. Not sure what to grade his day at given the contrasting performances, would his enjoyment of his role be the reason for his lethargy?

Thanks Juk3b0x for giving us such a considered report. Being a Watts fan who was impressed by his work-rate in the backline last year, I cannot but agree with your comments about his performance in the first half yesterday when he was an embarassment in the backline. The difference when he went forward was remarkable, particularly his contested possessions and goal. Maybe it is time to start playing him forward again and let Dunn (BOG for Casey) resume in the backline next week?

[DeeZee 7,445]

Problem is we have no stars.

No one in the top 50, not one.

In a couple of years we will have two in Viney and Hogan.

This is going to be another year of pain, and hopefully we wont lose too many at the end of the year.

And as i keep saying we have to move heaven and earth to lure an elite mid to the club.

[Dr. Mubutu 866]

Otherwise we are September bound.... Whoa hooo!

I'd say we are.

Look for Footscray v Melbourne at the 'blockbuster' time of 4:40pm, Sunday September 1st.

[watchtheeyes 1,422]

Wow we're there are some disparate views among us lot! My obligatory sweeping comment is everyone should calm down, I think we've shown modest improvement (yes I'm aware we have played two ordinary teams).

I have privately been hugely critical of Neeld over the past month. Sure he might have come from one of the best systems in the league, and learnt from one of the best masters, but all that means is that he knows how to set up a training drill. He obviously struggles on game day and talent identification.

He's playing people out of position and Watts is a perfect example of that. He needs to move forward to the forward flank with a licence to push up the ground. With Clarke and Dawes back it will give him the opportunity to collect off half back and use his supposed speed through the middle and deliver inside 50; also kick 2 goals each week. Also move Grimes off the wing and have him as a key defender. A couple of efforts in that second half were a lot better than we've been getting from others, I also remember he used to provide a bit of rebound a couple of years ago.

Byrnes has been a lot better than some of you blokes seem to want to admit. He seems to get his hands on the ball and deliver with reasonable efficiency, get him on the wing.

Pederson and Gillies have to go, what a lemon. Same should be said for Rodan if he doesn't step up soon. Having Magner racking up more than 30 possession and plenty of hard ball gets for Casey week after week is ridiculous. I'm guessing they didn't get him up early because his skills are lacking. Who cares? Get him with his head over the ball and knock it out to some one on the spread, also adds a big physical presence and doesn't force N Jones to shoulder the burden each week.

Trengove had NO pre-season, obviously that's going to have a huge impact on his speed. Put him on an intense conditioning program for 4 weeks, play him at Casey and bring him back for the second half of the year with the bit between his teeth.

While I'm rambling, McDonald has gone backwards. He needs to be sent down for a couple.

Stability is important here. This is what it is. Throwing our hands in the air and baying for blood will solve nothing. With Viney and Toumpas coming through over the next 3 years we have something to look forward to. It will take patience, but you're all supposedly supporters so how about you start supporting!

[P-man 13,366]

A very reasonable summation, watchtheyes. Welcome aboard.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Wow we're there are some disparate views among us lot! My obligatory sweeping comment is everyone should calm down, I think we've shown modest improvement (yes I'm aware we have played two ordinary teams).

I have privately been hugely critical of Neeld over the past month. Sure he might have come from one of the best systems in the league, and learnt from one of the best masters, but all that means is that he knows how to set up a training drill. He obviously struggles on game day and talent identification.

He's playing people out of position and Watts is a perfect example of that. He needs to move forward to the forward flank with a licence to push up the ground. With Clarke and Dawes back it will give him the opportunity to collect off half back and use his supposed speed through the middle and deliver inside 50; also kick 2 goals each week. Also move Grimes off the wing and have him as a key defender. A couple of efforts in that second half were a lot better than we've been getting from others, I also remember he used to provide a bit of rebound a couple of years ago.

Byrnes has been a lot better than some of you blokes seem to want to admit. He seems to get his hands on the ball and deliver with reasonable efficiency, get him on the wing.

Pederson and Gillies have to go, what a lemon. Same should be said for Rodan if he doesn't step up soon. Having Magner racking up more than 30 possession and plenty of hard ball gets for Casey week after week is ridiculous. I'm guessing they didn't get him up early because his skills are lacking. Who cares? Get him with his head over the ball and knock it out to some one on the spread, also adds a big physical presence and doesn't force N Jones to shoulder the burden each week.

Trengove had NO pre-season, obviously that's going to have a huge impact on his speed. Put him on an intense conditioning program for 4 weeks, play him at Casey and bring him back for the second half of the year with the bit between his teeth.

While I'm rambling, McDonald has gone backwards. He needs to be sent down for a couple.

Stability is important here. This is what it is. Throwing our hands in the air and baying for blood will solve nothing. With Viney and Toumpas coming through over the next 3 years we have something to look forward to. It will take patience, but you're all supposedly supporters so how about you start supporting!

I agree with most of what yo've posted there but I'm afraid the time for patience is coming to an end. The MFC supporters have been patient for 50 years and if we weren't so sick of rebuilds and failures I guess the hands wouldn't be thrown in the air.

I think that most of us can see that the club has become a joke and we are now the object of ridicule or pity; who is going to want to stay and play for such a rabble of a club?

First thing Neeld must get rid of the players you mentioned and see if any of the kids a Casey are capable of playing at the top level.

Edited April 29, 2013 by RobbieF

[Demoneyes 562]

We need at least one and would be nice to get two elite midfielders either from existing players at other clubs or via the draft. Move heaven and earth but 2 players in the midfield would have made the difference on the weekend!

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Mate, perhaps we can create a sub forum for you, Curry and co, where you can spend your time agreeing with each other, and talk about how all those who see significant issues with on field performance that are NOT being rectified as alarmist morons. No sorry, what are those words you like to throw around all the time? "Stupid, reactionary crap". One has to question just how poorly this side has to perform for you to think that maybe, just maybe, we don't have the right coach to lead us out of this ditch we find ourselves in. I'm thinking nothing less than a 100 point belting by the Bulldogs would suffice. Oh wait, no it wouldn't, they beat Brisbane, silly me...always a loophole I haven't thought of.

As for perspective on this match, yet again in excess of 100 less possessions than our opponent, 12 of the top 14 players on the ground being from the opposition. Nothing too unfamiliar under a Neeld side. Beaten convincingly in centre clearances again, 21-10, with Brisbane missing two of their best midfielders, if not their best. As for this persistence with zone defence, clearly the players either don't understand it, can't execute it, or it just doesn't [censored] work.

Some respectability added in the last 10 minutes masked what was another resounding defeat against a weakened team that was just HUMILIATED last week by North, but allows people to apparently close their eyes for most of the match and point to the final margin as evidence of great improvement. I mean [censored] spare me, please.

Anyhow, when we cop the mother of all hidings against Carlton next week, I look forward to what excuses can be rolled out to enable Neeld to keep his job while this club remains lead footed at the bottom. Remember to take a leaf out of Mark's book: "Development phase". When in doubt, "development phase". Works a charm.

OK. I'll take a sub forum. At least you won't be there.

[P-man 13,366]

OK. I'll take a sub forum. At least you won't be there.

You're dangerously close to sounding like a schoolgirl. Just a heads up.

A working title for your new forum: "Titan knows best"

Edited April 29, 2013 by P_Man