Time to go Mark Neeld

[bing181 9,246]

If Neeld believes the midfield is holding us back, why has he used 3 first round picks on key position forwards?

Most people would appreciate that the game is generally lost and won in the midfield. So why have we stacked up on the forward line?

First 3 draft picks: Toumpas, Barry, Viney. All mids.

Next 3 draft picks: Jones, Kent, Terlich. Mid, mid/forward and rebound HB.

Rookies: Clisby and Stark. Mids/rebound HB.

6 out and out mids, 2 rebound HB.

[rjay 24,990]

First 3 draft picks: Toumpas, Barry, Viney. All mids.

Next 3 draft picks: Jones, Kent, Terlich. Mid, mid/forward and rebound HB.

Rookies: Clisby and Stark. Mids/rebound HB.

6 out and out mids, 2 rebound HB.

Nice try, pick 3 Hogan bonus pick in Barry who may have slid to a rookie level pick. Pick 20 Dawes. So in the top 20 we picked up Toumpas a legit top 10 and I will give you Viney. 2 mids 2 KPF.

Still not to bad but I think you were a bit liberal with the facts.

[Roost It 1,434]

To not pick Hogan because of our lack of mids would of been a terrible terrible mistake.

We will go after miids this year and thinks will hopefully start to look up.

[rjay 24,990]

To not pick Hogan because of our lack of mids would of been a terrible terrible mistake.

We will go after miids this year and thinks will hopefully start to look up.

Agree, but we might face the same dilemma this year with Tom Boyd.

[bing181 9,246]

Nice try, pick 3 Hogan bonus pick in Barry who may have slid to a rookie level pick. Pick 20 Dawes. So in the top 20 we picked up Toumpas a legit top 10 and I will give you Viney. 2 mids 2 KPF.

Still not to bad but I think you were a bit liberal with the facts.

The post I was responding to talked about picks, not trades. But even then, I don't see it's valid.

You're right, of course we'll never know where Barry would have gone on an open market, but rookie ... stretching it I'd say! He was round 2/3 in a number of FD's even before his draft combine results, and if he ever makes it past Casey 2's, hopefully we'll get to see some of that in action!

Just hard for me to see the point of the original claim, given that we took something like 8 mids - or players who work through the mids - in this draft/trade period.

Edited May 3, 2013 by bing181

[bing181 9,246]

Agree, but we might face the same dilemma this year with Tom Boyd.

Almost deserves its own thread ...

[rjay 24,990]

Almost deserves its own thread ...

I think it won't be to long until that one comes up, I see we're already talking mystery ailments and pub brawls with young Stretch. What we need for season 2014 is already taking off...

We gotta keep some interest in the place I guess, what's happening on the ground is not so entertaining at the mo.

[Thehardtackler 785]

Have a look back at games that Bailey coached on YouTube and you get the feeling that the team were enjoying their football more under him, regardless of the results. Can Neeld get the players to enjoy their footy, regardless of the result or has the game become too focused on the scoreboard?

[Bossdog 2,002]

7 Years of inept recruiting & Development & you tell us all to be more patient, and not to be judgmental of the MFC

What so we wait patiently for another 50 years?

Having watched games since 1971 i am entitled to answers and on field action now...

I have had a gut full of patience watching other clubs win Flags.

But we have to start somewhere.... It's no use whining about what mistakes we have made over the last 7 years....They are gone....all we can do is learn by our mistakes and move on....I believe this is what is occurring now....I don't know what posters expected this year...Finals??....You've got to be kidding......We have 14 new players ....Did you just think by magic it would all just click and away we go....I have been waiting for a long time too....but I have the confidence that it will come.....I just don't read all the crap about us in the media.....

[rjay 24,990]

The post I was responding to talked about picks, not trades. But even then, I don't see it's valid.

You're right, of course we'll never know where Barry would have gone on an open market, but rookie ... stretching it I'd say! He was round 2/3 in a number of FD's even before his draft combine results, and if he ever makes it past Casey 2's, hopefully we'll get to see some of that in action!

Just hard for me to see the point of the original claim, given that we took something like 8 mids - or players who work through the mids - in this draft/trade period.

The original post was talking first rounders and we had a 2/2 split there by bringing Viney in as he should have been, he was wrapped up in the Hogan deal although some refuse to believe it. Viney, Toumpas/Hogan, Dawes.

I'm not sure on Dawes yet and think we may have been better off with a mid at that pick, Collingwood ended up with 3 picks and it would have been interesting to see who they went for if they only had 2. Which 2 of Kennedy, Broomhead and Grundy would they have taken. I know Kennedy would be a pretty handy player in the Red & Blue. Broomhead, another promising mid.

Anyway, onwards and hopefully upwards we go.

[beelzebub 23,380]

The only stat that matters is the scoreboard.

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[Cheap Seats 3,310]

Neeld has a fairly full list to choose from a defensive point of view - sure we're missing our forward keys Clark and Dawes and that will affect our ability to score and the way we enter forward 50 - both of which have some flow on defensive impact - but the core of our defensive set-up is in place. Jamar is missing but I think he's well covered by Spencer. Defensive forwards - Tapscott, Bail, Byrnes. A full midfield complement. Only Watts and Jetta missing from the backline - but we've got a lot of players competing for spots back there. First choice key backs Frawley, McDonald and Garland are in place. Our midfied is ordinary but I agree with posters here that it's not as terrible as results have suggested. N.Jones, Grimes, McKenzie, Trengove and Viney should be able to provide clearances, defensive structure and running. Then in addition we've got Sylvia, Howe, M.Jones and Evans who can all run hard and play. That 9 decent rotations through the middle.

Neeld has all resources at his disposal in team defence that he could reasonably expect to have and has had 5 weeks to refine who he wants where and what they should be doing and eliminate who is a team defence liability. We will struggle to kick a winning score. But if we get sliced open like a fat sausage a hot plate again this week there's really no excuse.

I don't know how you can say that with a straight face - I haven't seen any stats but I'm pretty sure we've been smashed every week in center clearances and defensive work rate, contested and uncontested possession.

Our backline is getting smashed I wouldn't even call it decent with the form Frawley and T Mac are in

I don't buy your argument at all fity5

Bailey had 2 almost 3 years in charge to implement his plans before 'results' were seen - Neelds had 1.3 years.

How long do you expect a new coach to turn this club around? And if he hasn't produced in 18 months will you call for his head as well?

[Pennant St Dee 13,241]

Without using stats I'm just listing observations and opinions, so I'll preface that by saying this is all just my thoughts:

-We look lost out there. I didn't like our boundary game plan last year, but this year there doesn't really seem to be a game plan.

-The zone either isn't working or the players have no idea where they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to do (ie- when to chase etc)

-There seems to be a distinct lack of spirit and effort. That's not something you can find a stat for, but there doesn't seem to be any enthusiastic unity.

-The list seems very "vanilla" to me. You always need depth players, but we seem to have nearly a whole list of them. (Pedo, Sellar, Gillies, Rodan etc)

-The defeatist attitude, ie- losing by 5 goals interstate is apparently a decent effort. We (well Neeld at least) seems happy with picking out one stat, or one quarter etc just like Bailey used to.

-Last year we braced ourselves for pain early on because we understood it was a time to find out about players and get used to a new coach and his way of doing things, this year I think most of us expected some improvement, if only a minimal amount.

-More experienced players are out of form under Neeld this year. We will lose a few this offseason, which is usual, but we will seemingly lose more players who previously had been good to very good players for us.

Just my thoughts. The stats are what I tend to look at more, we're ranked last or near last in every important major category, but the lack of hope and general resignation is what I find the most deflating this year.

Can't argue with most of that Stuie and means a lot more than stats, coaches attend Press conferences and reel off stats and talk about KPI'S. I also hear a lot of that KPI BS at work and it drives me crazy

I will however agree with others there is some light at the end of the tunnel, my take so far this year is not sure we have gone backwards more some have improved and others have gone backwards. Overall we are not were I expected or where we shoud be

[Adam The God 30,283]

Haha fair enough - Where are 5 additional goals per game going to come from offensively?And then how do we stop teams smashing us in the center clearances defensively? With the majority of the team hat has 30 - 40 games experience

Then go tell Neeld and co, because your analysis is clearly superior to theirs

The answer to both of these questions is competitiveness from the MFC midfield. If they work hard enough to gut run both ways, they'll get more of the ball and find themselves in goal scoring positions. You can't tell me that we couldn't find five goal kickers from the midfield if we were working hard. And change our stoppage set ups for starters. That will improve the centre clearance deficiencies. If we are switched on and adhere to viable midfield structures, we can at least break even with opposition midfields. Royal is a hopeless midfield coach and Neeld is just as poor for not picking up on it. What are they doing during the week? Do they not have opposition analysts? Do they not analyse these basic fundamentals? The way we set up at stoppages is flagrantly pitiful.

Our list could improve across the ground, no doubt, but it's not as simple as saying we don't have the cattle. There's no work rate in the midfield. There's barely any work rate across the entire ground. But every time we're involved in a stoppage, our abysmal set ups mean we're already behind the eight ball.

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

But we have to start somewhere.... It's no use whining about what mistakes we have made over the last 7 years....They are gone....all we can do is learn by our mistakes and move on....I believe this is what is occurring now....I don't know what posters expected this year...Finals??....You've got to be kidding......We have 14 new players ....Did you just think by magic it would all just click and away we go....I have been waiting for a long time too....but I have the confidence that it will come.....I just don't read all the crap about us in the media.....

I don't read all the media either, most of what i read is sourced from here, including links to articles.

I have watched all the games so far this year either live or from the AFL Website & i have NEVER seen a more uncompetitive side in 4 decades.

There is no system & no trust. Jack Trengove is still as slow as last year.

So i do wonder where you percieve any confidence at all, but you are entitled to your opinions.

As far as i am concerned, anybody who has been hands on over the last 6-7 years should just leave now.

We are the worst AFL Team by a long way.

David Rodan James Sellar & Cam Pederson.....Gysberts Cook

Watts $cully Trengove......and a Half $Million Fine.....Lets add Dr Bates, he to has shafted the club right up the Aisle.

So i again wonder where your confidence comes from.

Personally i am very Angry..

Edited May 3, 2013 by why you little

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

The answer to both of these questions is competitiveness from the MFC midfield. If they work hard enough to gut run both ways, they'll get more of the ball and find themselves in goal scoring positions. You can't tell me that we couldn't find five goal kickers from the midfield if we were working hard. And change our stoppage set ups for starters. That will improve the centre clearance deficiencies. If we are switched on and adhere to viable midfield structures, we can at least break even with opposition midfields. Royal is a hopeless midfield coach and Neeld is just as poor for not picking up on it. What are they doing during the week? Do they not have opposition analysts? Do they not analyse these basic fundamentals? The way we set up at stoppages is flagrantly pitiful.

Our list could improve across the ground, no doubt, but it's not as simple as saying we don't have the cattle. There's no work rate in the midfield. There's barely any work rate across the entire ground. But every time we're involved in a stoppage, our abysmal set ups mean we're already behind the eight ball.

Agreed AdamF

I'm not saying it can't happen - in fact i prey it does. From what we have seen in 2013 our midfield/forwards and backs are not able to keep up competitiveness for 4 qtrs. The main question is why? A lot of people point simply at Neeld and say the team is not playing for him.

There probably is an element of that, but could it be a combination of factors??? i don't think too many people on this thread want to take that in to account. Form/experience/Confidence/continuity/poor leadership/poor directions from coaches etc etc all contribute to why we are so bad on occasions.

Fifty5 earlier pointed out the quality of our list at Neelds disposal - Byrnes, Sylvia and possibly N Jones are possibly the only players who have played more the 100 games (not great research there by me ) but my point is our core crop of players have anywhere between 0 - 20 games or 50 - 80 games. Thats 0 to 3 years experience - Name the sides who rely on those sorts of players to win them games?

Where is the consistent AFL football coming from in that group?? - our lack of leadership and experience is a real concern (I am sure I've made a few mistakes in the games played - but it's about highlighting experience that none are real consistent AFL players)

Edited May 3, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[Grapeviney 9,730]

I don't know how you can say that with a straight face - I haven't seen any stats but I'm pretty sure we've been smashed every week in center clearances and defensive work rate, contested and uncontested possession.

I think you're making Fifty-5's point for him. We are being smashed in all those areas, yet when you look at the names, they would seem to have the potential to produce better results.

Sure, we'd like even better mids, but I'm staggered at their output given that our coach is a former premiership midfield coach and the talent he has at his disposal.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

I think you're making Fifty-5's point for him. We are being smashed in all those areas, yet when you look at the names, they would seem to have the potential to produce better results.

Sure, we'd like even better mids, but I'm staggered at their output given that our coach is a former premiership midfield coach and the talent he has at his disposal.

I should go look up afl games played etc of our starting 6 in the middle, but I can't be bothered

If you believe those blokes will win us games so be it.

But first go have a look at the bigger club's experience of their starting 6 mids - I think you'll see my argument

PS: even do it with Carltons starting 6 for this week

Edited May 3, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[Adam The God 30,283]

What don't you go to games, it is happening because as I put in another post, we haven't got an experienced midfield at the moment, we are trying like hell to get there though

Do you actually watch our midfield on game day? We let players waltz through the corridor by themselves, we barely lay any tackles. I can cop the lack of experience card, but there's also a lack of work rate not intrinsically linked to experience.

[Grapeviney 9,730]

If you believe those blokes will win us games so be it.

I don't necessarily think it's a match-winning midfield, but I can't believe / accept how comprehensively they get beaten, even taking into account their inexperience or deficiencies.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Grapeviney

[Hardnut 327]

I have read a lot of posts trying to make sense of why players are not performing at MFC (or did not perform before they left).

Let me make an observation using Moloney as an example.

Moloney used to be a superb attacking midfielder at MFC - he would fend off any opponent with one arm whilst holding the ball in the other, and then launch a long and accurate kick into the forward line. IMO he could not do this under MN because he was forced to focus on his opponent - look at some tape, and vision will show Moloney focussing on fending off his opponent with two arms and the ball is not in sight.

I would argue that other players have similar problems under the MN style.

Yeah, I know, let the attacks begin!

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

I don't necessarily think it's a match-winning midfield, but I can't believe / accept how comprehensively they get beaten, even taking into account their inexperience or defects.

Agreed mate, we have been poor I agree with you

But I won't accept the blame to be 100% placed on 1 person as it is on this thread.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

I have read a lot of posts trying to make sense of why players are not performing at MFC (or did not perform before they left).

Let me make an observation using Moloney as an example.

Moloney used to be a superb attacking midfielder at MFC - he would fend off any opponent with one arm whilst holding the ball in the other, and then launch a long and accurate kick into the forward line. IMO he could not do this under MN because he was forced to focus on his opponent - look at some tape, and vision will show Moloney focussing on fending off his opponent with two arms and the ball is not in sight.

I would argue that other players have similar problems under the MN style.

Yeah, I know, let the attacks begin!

No attacks mate

But you are applying one situation with one player over the entire playing group consisting of 44ish players and saying it is exactly the same for every player

That's why I still won't buy it's all Neelds fault

Edited May 3, 2013 by Unleash Hell

[Adam The God 30,283]

Have a look back at games that Bailey coached on YouTube and you get the feeling that the team were enjoying their football more under him, regardless of the results. Can Neeld get the players to enjoy their footy, regardless of the result or has the game become too focused on the scoreboard?

That's because they were only having to run one way. Everyone loves being able to just attack and not put in the hard yards at the other end of the park. But at elite level you have to work both ways.

[Hardnut 327]

No attacks mate

But you are applying one situation with one player over the entire playing group consisting of 44ish players and saying it is exactly the same for every player

That's why I still won't buy it's all Neelds fault

I said it was an example, and it does help to explain why so many players appear not to know what to do on the field.