The Crux of the Matter

[Guest]

Black Cloud over Dees

I don't think this ever got posted on the 'Land when it was published (last week) as it is out of the Geelong Addy (which is, as Bob Hawke once said, the worst paper in Australia). If it has been, the mods can feel free to delete the thread. I think Schwarz nailed it with his assessment with what has happened to the club post Daniher.

Ox is right in calling the club out on

• creating a culture of mediocrity when they embraced a 'lose to win' mindset. Look at the top four clubs as I am writing this. It's fair to say that 3 of them have a lot more cash than us but when have they bottomed out for five straight years ala Melbourne and Carlton? Hawthorn had three dodgy years, sure, but by the end of 2006, there was definitely light at the end of the tunnel.
  When has Sydney, post 1995, just decided to put the cue in the rack and give up on a season? There is a reason why their culture is the envy of the AFL (alongside Geelong's) and ours is a joke.
  
• putting all their eggs in one basket by just focusing on playing kids. The line 'Since when is youth the only option?' whilst not profoundly philosophic or striking, sums up the thinking I have towards that strategy. I point to Hawthorn again. Sure in 2005, a lot of players were moved on but blokes like Richie Vandenberg and Shane Crawford weren't treated like bad house guests or rotting fish. They were kept around to show the next generation what it was all about. Did Geelong show Dasher Milburn or Cam Mooney the door as soon as they hit thirty?
  The bigger issue isn't necessarily just the myopic focus on youth. You can play youngsters but they need to be the right youngsters. Draft position at the end of the day is just a number and I would have liked Ox to have gone a little further into that (and he did a little in highlighting the ridiculous decision to play Watts well before he was ready).
  
• hosing Junior McDonald by pushing him out the door when he realistically had a year or two of good footy left in him. See above.
  

I also appreciated the fact he didn't jump on the Neeld hating bandwagon straight away. He offered qualified support but was critical in questioning how the team can be at this stage of the season but their skills haven't improved at all. That is something I wonder about too. Recently, we seem to be having a dip but the execution is brutal to watch.

It is hard to call out who really ordered that we 'develop our list' as no one will be willing to put their hands up. Success has a million parents, failure is an orphan. Whoever did should move on to get rid of the stench that the years 2009-2011 created at our club.

I am readying myself for the 'what a stupid thread' crowd to get on board but quite frankly, I don't care. I have never read an article that summed up most of my current feelings regarding the Dees and their current morass than this one.

Rant off.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Guest

[tonatopia 278]

So who exactly is he pointing the finger at?

[Guest José Mourinho]

Disagree with the junior point.

How many games has he played this year, and how effective has he been?

And that's after a year's rest to get his body right.

Many forget the games he missed due to injury in his last season at the dees, and the prescient example of Brad Johnson running around that year on one leg, having overstayed his welcome in an effort for one last crack at finals.

It was the right decision, handled poorly.

The Cam Bruce departure was after the fact, and had he been honest with the club earlier in the piece, we may have found room for Junior.

But at the time, it was still the correct decision, as unsavoury as it was.

So many whinge about not having the balls to make the hard decisions...

[Sir Why You Little 37,195]

The Ox is bang on the money. Luke Ball should have been swiped from Under the Filth's nose.

[Hardnut 327]

A very, very good article!

[Guest]

So who exactly is he pointing the finger at?

Fair point that one. He is probably a little hobbled in truly naming names without a solid paper trail. I guess also Ox can only know so much as he barely gets back to the club these days. I think he would be good back there as quite frankly, they need someone like him who will call a spade a spade.

[Guest]

Disagree with the junior point.

How many games has he played this year, and how effective has he been?

And that's after a year's rest to get his body right.

Many forget the games he missed due to injury in his last season at the dees, and the prescient example of Brad Johnson running around that year on one leg, having overstayed his welcome in an effort for one last crack at finals.

It was the right decision, handled poorly.

The Cam Bruce departure was after the fact, and had he been honest with the club earlier in the piece, we may have found room for Junior.

But at the time, it was still the correct decision, as unsavoury as it was.

So many whinge about not having the balls to make the hard decisions...

I am not so sure he was completely shot. I was there for his last game against North and he looked like he could still go. I think frankly more than anything else he should have been kept on purely for the example he set. Some of the examples set these days around the club have been/are 'Bollocks to it. Let's go have a beer.'

[Choko 493]

Black Cloud over Dees

I don't think this ever got posted on the 'Land when it was published (last week) as it is out of the Geelong Addy (which is, as Bob Hawke once said, the worst paper in Australia). If it has been, the mods can feel free to delete the thread. I think Schwarz nailed it with his assessment with what has happened to the club post Daniher.

Ox is right in calling the club out on

• creating a culture of mediocrity when they embraced a 'lose to win' mindset. Look at the top four clubs as I am writing this. It's fair to say that 3 of them have a lot more cash than us but when have they bottomed out for five straight years ala Melbourne and Carlton? Hawthorn had three dodgy years, sure, but by the end of 2006, there was definitely light at the end of the tunnel.
  When has Sydney, post 1995, just decided to put the cue in the rack and give up on a season? There is a reason why their culture is the envy of the AFL (alongside Geelong's) and ours is a joke.
  
• putting all their eggs in one basket by just focusing on playing kids. The line 'Since when is youth the only option?' whilst not profoundly philosophic or striking, sums up the thinking I have towards that strategy. I point to Hawthorn again. Sure in 2005, a lot of players were moved on but blokes like Richie Vandenberg and Shane Crawford weren't treated like bad house guests or rotting fish. They were kept around to show the next generation what it was all about. Did Geelong show Dasher Milburn or Cam Mooney the door as soon as they hit thirty?
  The bigger issue isn't necessarily just the myopic focus on youth. You can play youngsters but they need to be the right youngsters. Draft position at the end of the day is just a number and I would have liked Ox to have gone a little further into that (and he did a little in highlighting the ridiculous decision to play Watts well before he was ready).
  
• hosing Junior McDonald by pushing him out the door when he realistically had a year or two of good footy left in him. See above.
  

I also appreciated the fact he didn't jump on the Neeld hating bandwagon straight away. He offered qualified support but was critical in questioning how the team can be at this stage of the season but their skills haven't improved at all. That is something I wonder about too. Recently, we seem to be having a dip but the execution is brutal to watch.

It is hard to call out who really ordered that we 'develop our list' as no one will be willing to put their hands up. Success has a million parents, failure is an orphan. Whoever did should move on to get rid of the stench that the years 2009-2011 created at our club.

I am readying myself for the 'what a stupid thread' crowd to get on board but quite frankly, I don't care. I have never read an article that summed up most of my current feelings regarding the Dees and their current morass than this one.

Rant off.

You can always run a counter-argument in these discussions. At the end of the day, I don't think the way our list was left at the end of the Daniher era was the same as the other clubs. Tell me who our Shane Crawford is? I agree with some of the points put about youth at the expense of experience and I definitely agree about Junior, but on the other hand, I think our youth policy would not have been unreasonable if we a) picked the right youth and B) developed them properly.

[DeeSpencer 26,090]

It's hard to blame a few isolated decisions when you look at:

An aging list after Daniher years

Horrible drafting

Poor facilities

Poor leadership from the players who were coming through

Under resourced football department

I have no doubt we made a mistake with junior but I'm still not convinced tanking was necessarily a bad idea. We had the worst list in the competition, why not use the system to full advantage.

[Guest]

You can always run a counter-argument in these discussions. At the end of the day, I don't think the way our list was left at the end of the Daniher era was the same as the other clubs. Tell me who our Shane Crawford is? I agree with some of the points put about youth at the expense of experience and I definitely agree about Junior, but on the other hand, I think our youth policy would not have been unreasonable if we a) picked the right youth and B) developed them properly.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that he was as talented as Crawf but I think the example Junior set was great. He was mature, he was a self made player and always had a dip. I think the other issue which could be looked at on this front is besides Junior and Neitz at the end of 2007, where were the other leaders?

[frankie_d 1,471]

I wonder how the whiteboard wednesdays, red and blue print, base camp strategy is going?

[Guest]

I wonder how the whiteboard wednesdays, red and blue print, base camp strategy is going?

Groan....

[Johnny Karate 559]

He does make some valid points. However, pointing out poor decisions at the MFC is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.

Does Melbourne have a poor culture because of tanking? I doubt it. I'd say it's more because of bad leadership & the failure to recruit leaders.

Recruiting has been key in Melbourne's demise. Scott Thompson, Luke Molan, Daniel Bell, Colin Sylvia, Matthew Bate, Nathan Jones, James Frawley, Cale Morton, Jack Watts, Tom Scully, Lucas Cook - all of our first pick, first rounders this century. Jones & Frawley aside, has there been a pick that hasn't been disappointing, disastrous or not bitten us in the arse?

Give us hungry footballers in Sam Mitchell, Sam Fisher, Cyril Rioli, Michael Hurley, Dustin Martin, Jack Darling & that goes a long way to solving the talent & culture problem.

Geelong have been great at recruiting talent & building culture. A little luck goes a long way though, they've gained Gary Ablett, Matthew Scarlett, Tom Hawkins & Mark Blake through the father-son rule, all who've been pivotal in premierships (Blake 09 only). In the same time period Melbourne got Chris Johnson.

A bit of financial & political stability goes a long way. Melbourne has a set of unique challenges in that respect which should be kept in mind before pushing the line "Club Y did this, Club Z does that, why can't the MFC?"

Benchmarking has its place but the best clubs are successful because they can find a cutting edge, a competitive advantage or adapt to their surrounds. To my mind Melbourne has too often been a follower in that respect.

The reasoning behind many of the decisions made by Melbourne since Daniher finished has been sound, the execution pox.

The cultural problems of today stem from a lack of leadership & are compounded by the failure to recruit leaders.

Schwarz is more than entitled to his opinion & should be commended for the way he has turned his life around. However, The cultural problems of today would be better if former players & leaders had left a legacy of professionalism, dedication to club & cause. Not a legacy of getting on the [censored], the punt, hanging out with gangland figures & introducing that lifestyle to young, impressionable team mates.

[Range Rover 1,935]

The cultural problems of today stem from a lack of leadership & are compounded by the failure to recruit leaders.

Nutshell.

[Cheesecake 92]

He does make some valid points. However, pointing out poor decisions at the MFC is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.

Does Melbourne have a poor culture because of tanking? I doubt it. I'd say it's more because of bad leadership & the failure to recruit leaders.

Recruiting has been key in Melbourne's demise. Scott Thompson, Luke Molan, Daniel Bell, Colin Sylvia, Matthew Bate, Nathan Jones, James Frawley, Cale Morton, Jack Watts, Tom Scully, Lucas Cook - all of our first pick, first rounders this century. Jones & Frawley aside, has there been a pick that hasn't been disappointing, disastrous or not bitten us in the arse?

Give us hungry footballers in Sam Mitchell, Sam Fisher, Cyril Rioli, Michael Hurley, Dustin Martin, Jack Darling & that goes a long way to solving the talent & culture problem.

Geelong have been great at recruiting talent & building culture. A little luck goes a long way though, they've gained Gary Ablett, Matthew Scarlett, Tom Hawkins & Mark Blake through the father-son rule, all who've been pivotal in premierships (Blake 09 only). In the same time period Melbourne got Chris Johnson.

A bit of financial & political stability goes a long way. Melbourne has a set of unique challenges in that respect which should be kept in mind before pushing the line "Club Y did this, Club Z does that, why can't the MFC?"

Benchmarking has its place but the best clubs are successful because they can find a cutting edge, a competitive advantage or adapt to their surrounds. To my mind Melbourne has too often been a follower in that respect.

The reasoning behind many of the decisions made by Melbourne since Daniher finished has been sound, the execution pox.

The cultural problems of today stem from a lack of leadership & are compounded by the failure to recruit leaders.

Schwarz is more than entitled to his opinion & should be commended for the way he has turned his life around. However, The cultural problems of today would be better if former players & leaders had left a legacy of professionalism, dedication to club & cause. Not a legacy of getting on the [censored], the punt, hanging out with gangland figures & introducing that lifestyle to young, impressionable team mates.

Agree, Jimmi.

I'm just not convinced by the argument that tanking has caused our problem. There are number of teams who have tanked over the last decade, and the evidence just isn't there that it has any correlation with subsequent performance. The only thing that can be definitively linked to an increased level of tanking, is an increase number of high draft picks.

And, i reckon you are right about our lack of leadership. Failure tend to breed more failure, until you pick yourselves up by the scruffs of your neck and pull yourself out of it. And good leaders are the kinds of people that can get everyone pulling together.

At the time that we got rid of Junior I remember thinking that it probably was the right thing to do for our list management. Hard, but right. But I also recall that we then lost Bruce to the Hawks, and losing both really emphasised the dearth of players we had in the over 25 age bracket. I was all for taking the 'youth' path, but still thought we needed a decent quota of experience. I remember telling my Dees mates that we should go crawling back to Junior and offer him his spot back. Cop the embarrassing fallout in the media, and get him back for another year or two. Looking back, I think I would have been proven right.

[Guest]

Agree, Jimmi.

I'm just not convinced by the argument that tanking has caused our problem. There are number of teams who have tanked over the last decade, and the evidence just isn't there that it has any correlation with subsequent performance. The only thing that can be definitively linked to an increased level of tanking, is an increase number of high draft picks.

And, i reckon you are right about our lack of leadership. Failure tend to breed more failure, until you pick yourselves up by the scruffs of your neck and pull yourself out of it. And good leaders are the kinds of people that can get everyone pulling together.

At the time that we got rid of Junior I remember thinking that it probably was the right thing to do for our list management. Hard, but right. But I also recall that we then lost Bruce to the Hawks, and losing both really emphasised the dearth of players we had in the over 25 age bracket. I was all for taking the 'youth' path, but still thought we needed a decent quota of experience. I remember telling my Dees mates that we should go crawling back to Junior and offer him his spot back. Cop the embarrassing fallout in the media, and get him back for another year or two. Looking back, I think I would have been proven right.

A good example of a side that did tank but did dig itself out of the mire is Carlton (though let's see if they make the finals before that call can be made!). I think what separates us from them are two things:

• Getting Chris Judd. Speaking to a former Carlton supporting colleague of mine, it sounds like Judd was the key. He came in and started demanding higher standards and for the most part got them. Sure he has a brain fade out on the field every now and again but the Blues generally march to the beat of his drum.
  
• A***holing Fev. Through their dark years, Fev was more their guiding light than Juddy. He divided the group and the younger fellas were more likely to follow his lead.
  

I think if you are going to go down the youth path, you need to make sure there are some senior players around to set an example. For those of us over 30, we can probably remember how inarticulate we really were at age 20 and how with experience we became the highly respected members of society we are today (and show it by spending all day on the 'Land). We didn't reach this point by living in a vacuum. We saw the example set by society around us and acted accordingly. Unfortunately, footy clubs can be a vacuum and the values of the 'real world' don't often filter in. It is times like that where good examples are indispensable.

[dpositive 1,744]

"Failure tend to breed more failure, until you pick yourselves up by the scruffs of your neck and pull yourself out of it".

CC that is a very powerful statement and IMO very apt.

It could also be considered with the statement from JC "Schwarz is more than entitled to his opinion & should be commended for the way he has turned his life around" an endorsement that Schwarz could now provide the very real "legacy of professionalism, dedication to club & cause" as an example to the next generation and overcome perhaps the previous "legacy of getting on the [censored], the punt, hanging out with gangland figures & introducing that lifestyle to young, impressionable team mates".

[H_T 3,049]

A very, very good article!

Good to see you support Ox's stance on Neeld.

It's an interesting article from Ox. He is one of a many that have supported things in the past 5 years in terms of moving players on, yet when media over time question decisions back a few years (because we know losing brings up questions as media look for things), he follows the sheep and can't think for himself.

Ox was supportive of Junior and his retirement at the time. It's amazing how uncomfortable people get when circumstances change as they did for Junior with his coaching exploits and a young team in GWS needing some guidance.

It's been posted to death on these boards re: Junior.

In the last days of his playing days for Melbourne, Junior battled for the second half of the season rehabilitating and recovering from hamstring troubles in his twilight. For 7-8 weeks ! The writing was on the wall.

Only those using hindsight would reflect that it was a bad call. Had they used foresight back then, they wouldn't have banked on Bruce walking a month later. Ox is one of those.

I'm simply amazed at Melbourne supporters inability to recall this. At the time, Melbourne were also in talks with Bruce, thinking he would go around again on the clubs terms to remain a one club player. rpfc spoke of this at the time in 2010.

Back to the emo-Ox article though, I'm happy he is entertaining those down at Sleepy Hollow. There's a positive for everything.

[Guest]

Good to see you support Ox's stance on Neeld.

It's an interesting article from Ox. He is one of a many that have supported things in the past 5 years in terms of moving players on, yet when media over time question decisions back a few years (because we know losing brings up questions as media look for things), he follows the sheep and can't think for himself.

Ox was supportive of Junior and his retirement at the time. It's amazing how uncomfortable people get when circumstances change as they did for Junior with his coaching exploits and a young team in GWS needing some guidance.

It's been posted to death on these boards re: Junior.

In the last days of his playing days for Melbourne, Junior battled for the second half of the season rehabilitating and recovering from hamstring troubles in his twilight. For 7-8 weeks ! The writing was on the wall.

Only those using hindsight would reflect that it was a bad call. Had they used foresight back then, they wouldn't have banked on Bruce walking a month later. Ox is one of those.

I'm simply amazed at Melbourne supporters inability to recall this. At the time, Melbourne were also in talks with Bruce, thinking he would go around again on the clubs terms to remain a one club player. rpfc spoke of this at the time in 2010.

Back to the emo-Ox article though, I'm happy he is entertaining those down at Sleepy Hollow. There's a positive for everything.

When did Ox say that? I can remember my old man going to a book signing with him and he was left under no illusion as to how Ox felt about Junior being moved on. He was filthy. Maybe it was a case of keeping private opinions and public expressions not matching up?

[H_T 3,049]

When did Ox say that? I can remember my old man going to a book signing with him and he was left under no illusion as to how Ox felt about Junior being moved on. He was filthy. Maybe it was a case of keeping private opinions and public expressions not matching up?

On SEN. He was supportive of Junior and his inability to get best out of his body at the time.

Once leadership started to be questioned last year onfield he started to question the retirement of Junior.

Mind you Baileys later acknowledgement re: Junior and that maybe another year would have helped the leadership void and midfield weakness probably assisted Ox and many others change in view over time. Maybe this is when the filthiness became apparent.

Poor performances have that effect on supporters.

[Guest]

On SEN. He was supportive of Junior and his inability to get best out of his body at the time.

Once leadership started to be questioned last year onfield he started to question the retirement of Junior.

Mind you Baileys later acknowledgement re: Junior and that maybe another year would have helped the leadership void and midfield weakness probably assisted Ox and many others change in view over time. Maybe this is when the filthiness became apparent.

Poor performances have that effect on supporters.

Nah, I can remember it was around my birthday n 2010 which is pretty much Grand Final day. Then again, I am going on second hand info so who says I am right?

[Slartibartfast 17,670]

Good clubs have Boards and management that make consistently good decisions.

MFC haven't and we are a very poor club. Until this changes we will continue to fail. Whilst many here blame past footy departments and players the real responsibility rest's the people who choose those people.

[rpfc 28,817]

Good clubs have Boards and management that make consistently good decisions.

MFC haven't and we are a very poor club. Until this changes we will continue to fail. Whilst many here blame past footy departments and players the real responsibility rest's the people who choose those people.

FMD.

Did McLardy run over your cat or something?

[Choko 493]

FMD.

Did McLardy run over your cat or something?

Surely Fan's comment is fair. The administration has to take responsibility for coaching and footy department appointments. Who else is responsible?

The administration picked Bailey, and then moved on in a shorter period than it would have if that choice wasn't a failure. A lot of us knew/felt it was a flawed process and decision that led to Bailey's appointment. If it wasn't a flawed appointment, then I suggest he should have been given one more year (because the field in 2013 is far broader and includes Malthouse, Eade and maybe Roos, Thompson).

A lot of our on-field planning has been made a mockery of in where we currently sit.

I think the thing that "saves"/makes our Board and admin on balance effective is the extraodrinary steps we have taken off-field to improve and build the foundations for sustained off-field and hopefully on-field success.

[Slartibartfast 17,670]

FMD.

Did McLardy run over your cat or something?

Which part do you disagree with or are you happy with how we are playing and think we are a well respected and great club ATM.

Is discussion of management performance off limits for you. I could name you 40 players along with coaches and recruiting staff who have suffered a lot more critical comment than the management. You are so touchy, are you on management. With the quality of your comments it wouldn't surprise me.

Toughen up and see if you can make a sensible comment.