Total Faith in the Neeld Way

[Maldonboy38 6,403]

We have been in this position before and we have emerged from it. We will again. Yes, we are a rabble at the moment and unbearably skill deficient to watch but I have hope. Why? I remember Hawthorn when Clarkosn took over. They were so bad, getting beaten by big scores, no skill, and constant kicking around the half back in an arc because they had no forwards. Clarkson had a vision for how footy should be played and he stuck to it through many months of bad footy.

What is worrying at the moment is that Neeld has shown no real game-day capacity to coach. If an opposition player is dominant then Jordie tags him. Apart from this there are no other options and few fresh ideas. The cattle we have may limit this.

However, Neeld has swung Garland and Rivers forward etc... , plays Watts as a backman, has felt free to drop Davey, Green, Moloney due to form. He has not put up with the soft rubbish from Petterd, Morton or even Watts. And our contested ball is much better

On top of all this has been our never-reducing, ever-increasing injury list. How would we have gone with Clark, Jurrah, Gysberts, Strauss, Jetta, Gawn all fit and firing for most of the season?

I don't have total faith in Neeld but I can see that he has a process to follow, and although it is painful I will give him another pre-season, another trade period, another draft and hopefully a run with less injuries before I make a full assessment of him.

[daisycutter 29,616]

We won 8 games last year. Repeat three times before blaming the players exclusively.

and if we consider that GWS weren't in the comp last year we have really only won one game this year

[BAMF 4,353]

Does anyone have the stats etc about when Mission took over at St Kilda? Were they noticeably slower in the first year? Just interested to see if it's just a byproduct of the training program that the players struggle at first.

Would add some sense to this discussion I feel.

http://thewall.com.au/topics/53772-st-kildas-fitness-coach-joins-demons

Misson worked with Sydney from 2001 to 2007, including the 2005 premiership.

Lyon, a former Swans assistant coach, lured Misson to St Kilda when Lyon took over as senior coach in 2008.

Saint were top 4 that year. But they had talent galore.

[stuie 7,374]

http://thewall.com.a...ch-joins-demons

Misson worked with Sydney from 2001 to 2007, including the 2005 premiership.

Lyon, a former Swans assistant coach, lured Misson to St Kilda when Lyon took over as senior coach in 2008.

Saint were top 4 that year. But they had talent galore.

I'm not so worried about results, as that's more about talent and coaching, just wondering if either of those teams, Swans and Saints, were a bit slow in that first year that Mission took over training them.

There was a post somewhere in 'Land where someone was explaining that because of the work Mission was putting into their legs, the players would be slower until after the next preseason, can't remember the specifics, but thought it would be important to find out if those other teams went through the same thing.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Thank you RalphiusMaximus, Fat Tony and Wells 11 for your thoughtful contributions re: "structures" and game plan. I share these concerns and was relieved to learn that I am not alone.

I remember at the start of the season that all we seemed to be doing was kicking it along the boundary to contests, but I reassured myself that Neeld was simply laying the foundations and teaching the players how to play accountable contested football. I had my concerns that this was merely a graft of the Collingwood plan, that it did not demonstrate any creativity or originality from Neeld, that it did not suit our list and that he was throwing the baby out with the bathwater in terms of our attacking game. But, like a lot of posters on here, I felt that you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and that eventually, Neeld would add "layers" to his game plan, particularly in offensive terms. But with every week that goes by, my hopes for Neeld fade as I see no evidence that there is anything more to his plan than a "monkey see monkey do" implementation of Collingwood 2010 (but not as good and without the right players obviously). The other layers still have not eventuated.

The best coaches are creative. They can adapt their plans to the "meta" of the competition and to the strengths of their squad. They are leaders, not followers, of the tactical evolution of the AFL. They will sometimes implement styles of play that are original or that have at least not been seen for many years. If they seek to implement an existing style of football, they will at least add their own twists. This is why I think Clarkson is the best coach in the AFL and why I have serious doubts about Neeld.

As for the Neeld cheer squad, I get your rhetoric about laying foundations, having to take a step back so we can go forward etc. and as you can see form this post, I am sympathetic to this thinking to an extent. What I would like to know is what it is exactly that you have seen on field that justifies your faith in Neeld and what criteria we can use to judge his performance into the future. For what it's worth, I can think of two positives so far - he has shown a willingness to experiment with player positions such as putting Garland up forward or using Manger as a defensive forward (albeit with mixed results) and he seems to have shown a propensity to make players "earn" their spot in the seniors and drop even very talented players who don't meet his expectations.

I think you and others are looking too hard to find fault with the coach and his game-plan. Ultimately any game-plan is only as good as the players at your disposal. Neeld's game-plan is based on defence and accountability and we know through the reaches of time that flags have been won by teams with a strong defensive focus. When Cam Bruce was interviewed 12 months ago he was asked what's the main difference between Hawthorn and Melbourne and he answered that it was the intensity of the training. He said that there were a lot more mature bodies at Hawthorn which allowed the training loads to be far greater. Misson and Neeld were apparently surprised by how poor the overall fitness was at Melbourne when they arrived and clearly it takes a few years to change this adequately.

Denis Pagan was considered a great coach by the North players and he won flags. He had terrible cattle at Carlton and the results showed. Barassi was a great coach at North and Carlton, but had terrible cattle at the Dees and the results showed. Alan Joyce took Hawthorn to a flag in the year that Allan Jeans was sick then went to Footscray where he had poor cattle and the results showed. In Malthouse's first year at Collingwood the list contained names such as Patterson, Baynes, Oborne, Smith, McKee, Jacotine, Kinnear, Wasley, Tuckey, Lane, Ukovic, Orchard, Adkins, and Dimmatina. There'd be plenty of players in that list of 14 that people have never heard of. Not surprisingly Collingwood came second last in Malthouse's first year as coach. David Parkin was twice sacked at Carlton, but in 1995 he coached a team to a flag that he has subsequently said virtually coached itself. Could he coach when he was sacked twice, or only when he had the talent at his disposal ? Alistair Clarkson won only 5 games in his first year and many supporters at the time were calling for his head. They're pretty quiet now.

Some supporters on here think that we've got a list that is choc full of talent, but where games of footy are won, i.e. the midfield, we don't. I think the bare bones of the list are OK and can be quickly improved with some good drafting and trading, but right now our run and spread is virtually non-existent. People get sick of hearing it, but our recruiting over the last 5 years has hurt us terribly. Neeld and Co have an opportunity to make significant changes at the end of the year and I think they will. I know Neeld thinks the demands of the game are too great on young players, but I hope he holds his nerve and doesn't lose our opportunity to draft some exciting talent with picks 3 and 4. I'll understand if he sacrifices pick 12 for an older player, but not the first two.

I think you get my message. It's hard to judge Neeld with the quality of the list at his disposal. Rather than focusing so much on the game-plan it's the list that needs dissecting. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken [censored]. You can't pull your socks up if you haven't got any. Coaches have known for 100 years that you need talented players and despite the denials of some supporters, we don't have nearly enough.

Can Neeld coach ? I don't know. Is the list great ? Hell no.

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

I'm not so worried about results, as that's more about talent and coaching, just wondering if either of those teams, Swans and Saints, were a bit slow in that first year that Mission took over training them.

There was a post somewhere in 'Land where someone was explaining that because of the work Mission was putting into their legs, the players would be slower until after the next preseason, can't remember the specifics, but thought it would be important to find out if those other teams went through the same thing.

St Kilda finished 4th in 2008 Just another excuse that looked at carefully does not make sense. Last season it was our players lack of experience in game time that was in vogue.

[beelzebub 23,376]

I will form my full opinion by mid next year.

At the moment I think he has lost the players.

But has he ?

or is it simply that some players never got Neeld. ?

I suspect the latter. Some just arent the type that we need. He ( Neeld ) didnt lose them , they were incapable of being had.

[stuie 7,374]

St Kilda finished 4th in 2008 Just another excuse that looked at carefully does not make sense. Last season it was our players lack of experience in game time that was in vogue.

Not making excuses for the results, maybe you should read through the posts that led up to my last one instead of ducking your head in and making a fool of yourself.

What I'm trying to determine, is if the reason we are considerably slower this year is because of the new training regime brought in by our new fitness guy.

Not talking about gameplans, players etc etc, actually talking about something tangible rather than merely opinion, try it sometime.

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

Can Neeld coach ? I don't know. Is the list great ? Hell no.

That's all well and good and I have already conceded that it is too early to write him off. But putting the excuses to one side for a moment, what exactly has he done to inspire faith in his ability to coach to date? I've come up with:

- Has experimented with player positions with some mixed success

- Has been prepared to drop players who do not meet his standards

With five games to go and only two wins on the board, that's not a lot to hang your hat on really.

Based on my observations to date, he is merely trying to implement a carbon copy of Collingwood's expired game plan which does not suit our list. This gives me little hope for the future and leads me to conclude that he is failing in his role and lacks the tactical and strategic creativity required to be a premiership coach.

[stuie 7,374]

But has he ?

or is it simply that some players never got Neeld. ?

I suspect the latter. Some just arent the type that we need. He ( Neeld ) didnt lose them , they were incapable of being had.

Think everyone is starting to trip over themselves in telling everyone how it is.

We have no idea if he has the players, had them and lost them, never had them.. etc etc..

Doesn't really matter, what matters is that there is deifnitely some growing pains in the communication, both sides (players and coach) would be at fault, and hopefully alot of it can be ironed out during the offseason.

Personally, I'd like to see Neil Craig (or even a knew coach for the role) get more involved in facilitating player/coach communication. Maybe even get Lovett involved somehow, depending on his contract situation with Casey and how that works.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Personally, I'd like to see Neil Craig (or even a knew coach for the role) get more involved in facilitating player/coach communication. Maybe even get Lovett involved somehow, depending on his contract situation with Casey and how that works.

do you have intimate knowledge of how much does alreadygo on ? Or are you simply guessing. I would think much of this goes on as a matter of course, its just they are obviously recalcitrant in not coming and telling us all at length what they are doing. Naughty lads.

[bandicoot 1,395]

How did a team that was good enough to win 8 games last year end up on 2 this year? Blame bailey yeah?

A 'good' coach would have taken the positives from the previous era and built on them.

Instead Neeld came in with a stick of dynamite and completely blew away any trace of the old regime.

Poor management in my opinion. That is why we have only won 2 games

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

Not making excuses for the results, maybe you should read through the posts that led up to my last one instead of ducking your head in and making a fool of yourself.

What I'm trying to determine, is if the reason we are considerably slower this year is because of the new training regime brought in by our new fitness guy.

Not talking about gameplans, players etc etc, actually talking about something tangible rather than merely opinion, try it sometime.

I saw two St Kilda games in 2008 and they certainly did not look slow. Best if you stop pursuing old wives tales.

[cowboy_from_hell 2,390]

I think you and others are looking too hard to find fault with the coach and his game-plan. Ultimately any game-plan is only as good as the players at your disposal. Neeld's game-plan is based on defence and accountability and we know through the reaches of time that flags have been won by teams with a strong defensive focus. When Cam Bruce was interviewed 12 months ago he was asked what's the main difference between Hawthorn and Melbourne and he answered that it was the intensity of the training. He said that there were a lot more mature bodies at Hawthorn which allowed the training loads to be far greater. Misson and Neeld were apparently surprised by how poor the overall fitness was at Melbourne when they arrived and clearly it takes a few years to change this adequately.

Denis Pagan was considered a great coach by the North players and he won flags. He had terrible cattle at Carlton and the results showed. Barassi was a great coach at North and Carlton, but had terrible cattle at the Dees and the results showed. Alan Joyce took Hawthorn to a flag in the year that Allan Jeans was sick then went to Footscray where he had poor cattle and the results showed. In Malthouse's first year at Collingwood the list contained names such as Patterson, Baynes, Oborne, Smith, McKee, Jacotine, Kinnear, Wasley, Tuckey, Lane, Ukovic, Orchard, Adkins, and Dimmatina. There'd be plenty of players in that list of 14 that people have never heard of. Not surprisingly Collingwood came second last in Malthouse's first year as coach. David Parkin was twice sacked at Carlton, but in 1995 he coached a team to a flag that he has subsequently said virtually coached itself. Could he coach when he was sacked twice, or only when he had the talent at his disposal ? Alistair Clarkson won only 5 games in his first year and many supporters at the time were calling for his head. They're pretty quiet now.

Some supporters on here think that we've got a list that is choc full of talent, but where games of footy are won, i.e. the midfield, we don't. I think the bare bones of the list are OK and can be quickly improved with some good drafting and trading, but right now our run and spread is virtually non-existent. People get sick of hearing it, but our recruiting over the last 5 years has hurt us terribly. Neeld and Co have an opportunity to make significant changes at the end of the year and I think they will. I know Neeld thinks the demands of the game are too great on young players, but I hope he holds his nerve and doesn't lose our opportunity to draft some exciting talent with picks 3 and 4. I'll understand if he sacrifices pick 12 for an older player, but not the first two.

I think you get my message. It's hard to judge Neeld with the quality of the list at his disposal. Rather than focusing so much on the game-plan it's the list that needs dissecting. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken [censored]. You can't pull your socks up if you haven't got any. Coaches have known for 100 years that you need talented players and despite the denials of some supporters, we don't have nearly enough.

Can Neeld coach ? I don't know. Is the list great ? Hell no.

I'm just gonna copy and paste your post anytime someone spews up the "But we won 8 games last year". Well said mate.

[stuie 7,374]

do you have intimate knowledge of how much does alreadygo on ? Or are you simply guessing. I would think much of this goes on as a matter of course, its just they are obviously recalcitrant in not coming and telling us all at length what they are doing. Naughty lads.

Nup, no idea whatsoever! Just getting this stronger and stronger impression that it's all a bit too cold around the place, who was it that said we needed a love-in earlier in the year, was either Blight or Malthouse not quite sure, and I think that is along the lines of what I'm alluding to. Would just love to see some more spirit and unity amongst the group, we saw some when we beat Essendon, but we just seem to be missing it, and it's always hard when you're losing, which is why I like the idea of a "Communication Coach" (for want of a better term) put in place by MFC.

It could be Craig, Leigh Brown, or any of the current assistants, or it could be someone who knows the group like say James McDonald. Basically, the role would be to monitor the spirit and feeling of the group, take action to keep it positive, facilitate bonding, and act as a mouth piece for the players to the coaching group.

May sound a bit new age to some, but after all we do have a sports science guy etc, so it's time to get ahead of the curve. One thing we've definitely lacked this year is soul.

Hopefully you guys get what I'm trying to say.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

I have absolute, one hundred percent faith in our coach. I'm just not sure about his gameplan, team selection, positional moves and communication skills.

[stuie 7,374]

I saw two St Kilda games in 2008 and they certainly did not look slow. Best if you stop pursuing old wives tales.

FFS.... Just because most are laying blame and looking for excuses it doesn't mean all of us are.

It was a LITERAL question I asked, not a rhetorical one. I'm looking for facts that explain things and give reasons, not merely blaming Neeld or Bailey or Prendegrast or whoever else people haven't thought of yet...

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

FFS.... Just because most are laying blame and looking for excuses it doesn't mean all of us are.

It was a LITERAL question I asked, not a rhetorical one. I'm looking for facts that explain things and give reasons, not merely blaming Neeld or Bailey or Prendegrast or whoever else people haven't thought of yet...

Calm down, take a Bex with camomile. We all share your frustrations.

Edited July 29, 2012 by america de cali

[beelzebub 23,376]

I think you and others are looking too hard to find fault with the coach and his game-plan.

....................

Can Neeld coach ? I don't know. Is the list great ? Hell no.

Sadly this this will not be understood by many of those who need to.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Nup,

you had me at NUP !!

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

Sadly this this will not be understood by many of those who need to.

Explain it then.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Explain it then.

read his ( BH) post..

Its in English...

[Fat Tony 5,231]

I think you and others are looking too hard to find fault with the coach and his game-plan.

---------------

Can Neeld coach ? I don't know. Is the list great ? Hell no.

Disagree. Neeld's game plan is a massive outlier compared to the rest of the competition. We have been way too predictable and slow in our ball movement, which is a complete 180 on where we have come from. No other team is so averse to either using the corridor or using handball as an attacking weapon.

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

read his ( BH) post..

Its in English...

I did read it. I thought it was pretty straightforward and I agree with a fair bit of it.

However you seem to be alluding to some kind of deeper understanding beyond the ken of many of us mere mortals so I was wondering if their was something I had missed?

If you don't want to explain yourself, perhaps you could explain your reasons for your faith in Neeld, i.e. what it is that you have seen him do to date which justifies your confidence in his ability as a coach? So far all you have added to this conversation has been platitudes, sniping of other posters and excuses. The excuses at least are somewhat constructive but despite what you seem to think, I suspect that they are pretty well understood by most of us.

Unless you mean "faith" in Neeld as in a belief not based on evidence/proof? That would make sense.

[stuie 7,374]

you had me at NUP !!

Didn't think you'd be able to get past that... Not the greatest at taking others opinions and ideas on board are you Bez?!