Toumpas v Stringer v Wines

[Macca 16,648]

I started a ball rolling.

Actually, you did.

I could re-quote you again with those ill-mannered and ill-conceived comments that you made a few months back ... but.let's face it, you've already embarrassed yourself enough.

You've got some real anger issues and you're a complete novice when it comes to many football matters ... you've been an onlooker all your life and wouldn't know what it's like to be involved at a club.

You're one those types that is forever complaining and you never offer any sort of solutions. Moaning about the past is your speciality - you even want to ditch the captain (Jones) and trade him out.

Go away and bother someone else with your utter nonsense. We get it, you HATE Toumpas - congratulations. Does that stupid hate of yours somehow make you feel better? Grow up.

[jumbo returns 6,703]

We picked a great time to bottom out with a compromised draft.

Funnily enough, Roos seemed to ask the right questions....

Brayshaw is a competitive beast, Petracca has been hurting his opponents since Auskick and Vanders just sees ball, gets ball.

The boys that didn't make it were very poor decisions and new clubs couldn't help them either...

[Sir Why You Little 36,679]

Actually, you did.

I could re-quote you again with those ill-mannered and ill-conceived comments that you made a few months back ... but.let's face it, you've already embarrassed yourself enough.

You've got some real anger issues and you're a complete novice when it comes to many football matters ... you've been an onlooker all your life and wouldn't know what it's like to be involved at a club.

You're one those types that is forever complaining and you never offer any sort of solutions. Moaning about the past is your speciality - you even want to ditch the captain (Jones) and trade him out.

Go away and bother someone else with your utter nonsense. We get it, you HATE Toumpas - congratulations. Does that stupid hate of yours somehow make you feel better? Grow up.

Lot of big staements there Macca

You have no idea what i have done & what i have been through

I don't HATE Toumpas. But i do hate that so many picks we had at the top end of the draft have been complete failures.

You say it is luck

....I don't. Why? Because it happened to often in quick succession

Edited August 29, 2015 by Sir Why You Little

[picket fence 16,708]

You continually say the Draft is all luck

That is a perfect MFC cop out

So many of our past Top Picks have shown nothing once in the senior side.

That to me says it is an MFC problem where the club has failed to capitalize on the system the entire competition uses.

Yep and I also don't buy another opinion that Jack Viney said that Jimmy Toumpas was the best player et all etc.

What would he know??

TAC SANFL etc etc are poles apart from knifes edge AFL.

Eg looks pretty, smart ball user, elite kick, great endurance, yadda yadda!

HOW MANY GO GET BALL AND USE IT WELL??

Not too bloody many!

So may clubs have had inferior picks to us and Well what do you know ?? They all turn out better than our guys.

Just remind me again how many of our recruiters in the past 10-15 years have actually played a game of AFL To know what is required??

Nup a perfect fail ! Our recruiting and to a large extent drafting has been abysmal!

Edited August 29, 2015 by picket fence

[Macca 16,648]

Lot of big staements there Macca

You have no idea what i have done & what i have been through

I don't HATE Toumpas. But i do hate that so many picks we had at the top end of the draft have been complete failures.

You say it is luck

....I don't. Why? Because it happened to often in quick succession

I'll say it again, the draft is an imperfect system and all the facts and data back that appraisal up.

How you can honestly say the system is perfect is beyond belief. I see your view as totally weird and without logic. Do you really believe that all the recruiters are basically incompetent - they all miss out on the gun players and they all pick busts.

Just remember that you're the one who keeps quoting me every time I express my views about drafting ... I usually only post my views on drafting without quoting anyone. Until recently.

If one allows oneself to start having doubts about the drafting system for a decent length of time, then those doubts won't go away easily. It sounds like you've only ever thought one way without ever entertaining the thought that what you've been told is actually incorrect.

Toumpas is just another example of how the draft is flawed - a gun junior who is struggling to make it in the big time. For what it's worth, I'd like him to make it ... I get the strong impression that you want him to fail. You only ever talk about him in a disparaging way - and don't forget, you were very pleased when we drafted him. Those words are yours - to keep.

Strangely enough, I made no such big statement. about Toumpas. My view is to generally just let things play out with teenage draftees.

[TheoX 1,220]

Toump had a very low contested possession percentage as a junior.

Edited August 29, 2015 by TheoX

[KingDingAling 3,740]

Toump had a very low contested possession percentage as a junior.

I didn't see anything in Toumpas in the nationals. Others argue that he was dominant, I certainly didn't see that. What I did see was Ollie Wines tear it up, display all the qualities you would want in a midfielder. In the case of Toumpas, I just put it down to inadequate scouting, a lack of knowledge of what is required to succeed in an AFL environment. I don't begrudge our recruiters for not picking Stringer though, he was coming off a broken leg, and that alone is a setback. Hindsight is a wonderful thing is regards to Stringer, but overlooking Wines in favor of Toumpas was just a miserable failure, and was never going to end well.

[Macca 16,648]

The million dollar question isn't so much why top juniors can't cut it, it's why junior players who aren't even rated at all end up winning Brownlows.

The draft: informed guesswork, but at the end of the day, still guesswork.

The information we have about a star junior footy player can be taken any way we want. There are those who are circumspect like myself and there are those who automatically buy in ... too many buy in considering the information can be dubious, all things considered.

They say it's all above the shoulders but the talent still has to be there to begin with. There are so many facets to being a top AFL footy player but there's a lot of boxes that can't be ticked until that player is exposed to the big time.

It's the same in any sport unless the exposed form is closer to the step up that that sportsperson is taking. Shield cricket to test cricket is way closer than TAC form to AFL level IMO. Others may disagree.

And I agree on those who end up being stars after showing just average form at junior level ... how that can be identified is anyone's guess. Those unanswered questions will almost certainly remain unanswered ... unless the draft age is lifted and the feeder comp is ramped up - not sure that will happen in the immediate future though. Until such an occurrence happens, the draft is what it is.

.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Macca

[dpositive 1,654]

So it's ok for you to scream at me previously with your use of caps and abbreviated swearing ... and cast aspersions my way with your blatant lies. You started the ball rolling Wyl so stiff cheddar if you get a bit back. If you want to dish it out, learn how to cop it.

The drafting system is flawed and there is some luck involved - there has to be in an imperfect system such as drafting. It's not all luck and I've never said it was all luck. Again, you have comprehension issues.

I'd compare drafting teenagers more to the "favourites" in horse racing ... the large majority of favourites don't win and many don't even run a place. Any punter is armed with that information and should accept the consequences accordingly.

Of course, many of us have known punters who like to moan and groan - those here who complain about top end draft picks that don't work out remind me of those "mug" punters. Complaining about it will get you absolutely nowhere - the outcomes are the outcomes.

Maybe a career awaits you in recruiting - you should give it a try as you seem to know all the answers. Me, I can't explain why a number of top juniors can't cut it - the reality is, no one can.

.[/quote

Sorry to step into your debate but I reckon all demon supporters could read the article in the age analysing the "luck" of the ashes

Series.

I always prescribe to the chaos theory myself but I reckon if we are enduring a sequence of bad luck in a cyclical fashion we could be due for a great sequence of success. I only hope I live long enough to enjoy it

[Sir Why You Little 36,679]

I'll say it again, the draft is an imperfect system and all the facts and data back that appraisal up.

How you can honestly say the system is perfect is beyond belief. I see your view as totally weird and without logic. Do you really believe that all the recruiters are basically incompetent - they all miss out on the gun players and they all pick busts.

Just remember that you're the one who keeps quoting me every time I express my views about drafting ... I usually only post my views on drafting without quoting anyone. Until recently.

If one allows oneself to start having doubts about the drafting system for a decent length of time, then those doubts won't go away easily. It sounds like you've only ever thought one way without ever entertaining the thought that what you've been told is actually incorrect.

Toumpas is just another example of how the draft is flawed - a gun junior who is struggling to make it in the big time. For what it's worth, I'd like him to make it ... I get the strong impression that you want him to fail. You only ever talk about him in a disparaging way - and don't forget, you were very pleased when we drafted him. Those words are yours - to keep.

Strangely enough, I made no such big statement. about Toumpas. My view is to generally just let things play out with teenage draftees.

1. I do not want Toumpas to fail he was a pick 4. That is up to him whether he makes the grade.

2. I have never said the draft is perfect BUT 18 Teams use it and we the MFC have failed dismally to use it to any advantage repeatedly.

For this reason i blame the clubs recruiting not the system in place.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

It's obviously not poor recruiting choices, because every single one of those players was taken at the exact pick they were supposed to be taken at and would have been by every other club. Anyone who argues that point is a straight up moron IMO. You can't put it all down to bad luck either, there is too much of it.

The thing all those players have in common is that they were developed at this dog and pony show we pretend is an AFL footy club

1. I do not want Toumpas to fail he was a pick 4. That is up to him whether he makes the grade.

2. I have never said the draft is perfect BUT 18 Teams use it and we the MFC have failed dismally to use it to any advantage repeatedly.

For this reason i blame the clubs recruiting not the system in place.

[Macca 16,648]

Sorry to step into your debate but I reckon all demon supporters could read the article in the age analysing the "luck" of the ashes

Series.

I always prescribe to the chaos theory myself but I reckon if we are enduring a sequence of bad luck in a cyclical fashion we could be due for a great sequence of success. I only hope I live long enough to enjoy it

Well, the cycle has probably already started to swing so my comments shouldn't be regarded as doom & gloom anyway.

• Watts is getting better
• Trengove might get back better than ever (fingers crossed)
• Hogan is well on his way
• Brayshaw can only keep improving
• Tyson can play and he was an original pick 3
• Petracca may well be very good
• ... and it's not quite over for Toumpas anyway.

I'm merely trying to point out that it's not a perfect system ... and once people come to terms with that, they may be less inclined to lash out at said player. I'm happy to go into bat for Toumpas on principle.

Look at the treatment that Cale Morton received here ... in the following article Cale himself says that he was taken too early in the 2007 draft ... quite an admission but of course he had no say in what draft pick he was going to be picked at. At the time, he was just a kid with wild eyed expectations. We as a club attached a number to him and the rest is history.

1. I do not want Toumpas to fail he was a pick 4. That is up to him whether he makes the grade.

2. I have never said the draft is perfect BUT 18 Teams use it and we the MFC have failed dismally to use it to any advantage repeatedly.

For this reason i blame the clubs recruiting not the system in place.

He may not be as good as his draft pick number might indicate though - that's where the draft can be flawed. We all know he was a gun junior - that bit can't be questioned.

And you refuse to look at drafting from a bigger picture point of view ... one day you might take the time to look at the results from all the clubs points of view (busts and surprise champs included) so you and others might see things in a different light. Maybe.

As I said previously, you get far too angry and upset about such occurrences. Don't worry, I get just as disappointed but I'm able to come to terms with it all because I don't share the same belief system as what you do. Again, it's not an opposite view, it's a scaled down view.

[Sir Why You Little 36,679]

Well, the cycle has probably already started to swing so my comments shouldn't be regarded as doom & gloom anyway.

• Watts is getting better
• Trengove might get back better than ever (fingers crossed)
• Hogan is well on his way
• Brayshaw can only keep improving
• Tyson can play and he was an original pick 3
• Petracca may well be very good
• ... and it's not quite over for Toumpas anyway.

I'm merely trying to point out that it's not a perfect system ... and once people come to terms with that, they may be less inclined to lash out at said player. I'm happy to go into bat for Toumpas on principle.

Look at the treatment that Cale Morton received here ... in the following article Cale himself says that he was taken too early in the 2007 draft ... quite an admission but of course he had no say in what draft pick he was going to be picked at. At the time, he was just a kid with wild eyed expectations. We as a club attached a number to him and the rest is history.

He may not be as good as his draft pick number might indicate though - that's where the draft can be flawed. We all know he was a gun junior - that bit can't be questioned.

And you refuse to look at drafting from a bigger picture point of view ... one day you might take the time to look at the results from all the clubs points of view (busts and surprise champs included) so you and others might see things in a different light. Maybe.

As I said previously, you get far too angry and upset about such occurrences. Don't worry, I get just as disappointed but I'm able to come to terms with it all because I don't share the same belief system as what you do. Again, it's not an opposite view, it's a scaled down view.

Of course i can see the Draft Big Picture. Some clubs make very astute careful decisions more often than not

The MFC has been abysmall at choosing players up until Roos came in

For that reason i do not blame the system. It is a lot fairer than a zone allocation

If this system was only used by certain clubs i could agree with more of your philosophy but the fact is 18 Teams use it

Some much better than others.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

he had no say in what draft pick he was going to be picked at. At the time, he was just a kid with wild eyed expectations. We as a club attached a number to him and the rest is history.

incorrect, the whole country attached a number to him, many 'experts' at the time said he had a case to go at #1. If we had not taken him he would have been gone the next pick. Therefore it is ridiculous to say we made a mistake in selecting him. It is exactly the same for Toumpas and all of the others. Why is it that so many people can't get this very simple concept into their heads?

[Macca 16,648]

Of course i can see the Draft Big Picture. Some clubs make very astute careful decisions more often than not

The MFC has been abysmall at choosing players up until Roos came in

For that reason i do not blame the system. It is a lot fairer than a zone allocation

If this system was only used by certain clubs i could agree with more of your philosophy but the fact is 18 Teams use it

Some much better than others.

I'm done arguing with you, it's a complete waste of my time. Wallow in your own misery for all I care.

Oh, and make sure you go on to the Nathan Jones - 200th game thread and wish him your best. You know, strip him of the captaincy, trade him out and all that ... off you go mate, we're all waiting.

incorrect, the whole country attached a number to him, many 'experts' at the time said he had a case to go at #1. If we had not taken him he would have been gone the next pick. Therefore it is ridiculous to say we made a mistake in selecting him. It is exactly the same for Toumpas and all of the others. Why is it that so many people can't get this very simple concept into their heads?

I meant it in the sense that we ultimately picked him at no.4. "Decisions" are made with drafting - the hindsight heroes will scream 'mistake' if things don't work out but they rarely, if ever, say anything at the time.

It goes something like this ...

[Sir Why You Little 36,679]

I think it is you who hold in a lot of anger Macca

Keep punching...

[Macca 16,648]

At least I have an understanding of how the drafting system works ... you lack experience and that's why your view is such a black and white one. You will continue to be distressed, angry, disillusioned, confused and bewildered by our draft choices whilst many others will come to terms with things quite quickly.

My argument re drafting isn't shared by many here but that's ok - I don't expect to change anyone's mind. That's not my motive - my motive is to make people think ... I've done this sort of thing before - numerous times. Going along with the crowd is not my thing.

We'll just see what happens in the long run.

[Demonic Faves 39]

So this is what happens while I've been away? Little old Sir Why is still moaning! Lol. Little Man syndrome.

[Sir Why You Little 36,679]

At least I have an understanding of how the drafting system works ... you lack experience and that's why your view is such a black and white one. You will continue to be distressed, angry, disillusioned, confused and bewildered by our draft choices whilst many others will come to terms with things quite quickly.

My argument re drafting isn't shared by many here but that's ok - I don't expect to change anyone's mind. That's not my motive - my motive is to make people think ... I've done this sort of thing before - numerous times. Going along with the crowd is not my thing.

We'll just see what happens in the long run.

I lack experience of what actually Macca?

And what makes your opinions so righteous?

I have observed the previous 10 years and seen a club very poorly run that has been given numerous chances to rise with a zero result

[KingDingAling 3,740]

At least I have an understanding of how the drafting system works ... you lack experience and that's why your view is such a black and white one. You will continue to be distressed, angry, disillusioned, confused and bewildered by our draft choices whilst many others will come to terms with things quite quickly.

My argument re drafting isn't shared by many here but that's ok - I don't expect to change anyone's mind. That's not my motive - my motive is to make people think ... I've done this sort of thing before - numerous times. Going along with the crowd is not my thing.

We'll just see what happens in the long run.

If you are drinking, perhaps I suggest that you stop?

[Macca 16,648]

I lack experience of what actually Macca?

And what makes your opinions so righteous?

I have observed the previous 10 years and seen a club very poorly run that has been given numerous chances to rise with a zero result

You fly off the handle about anything and everything - constantly. That says to me that you lack experience ... I've given you some curry today because you continue to utter malicious lies about my drafting opinions. You chose that path, I'm just reacting.

Now, you either lack the intelligence to figure out what I'm saying or you're just looking for an argument because of your misplaced anger. Which one is it?

If you are drinking, perhaps I suggest that you stop?

I don't even drink ... teetotal here.

I've read your unfortunate thoughts on Toumpas so I can see your bias ... perhaps it's you that has the drinking problem. Casting aspersions is poor form - you've let yourself down badly.

.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Macca

[dee-luded 2,959]

We picked a great time to bottom out with a compromised draft.

Funnily enough, Roos seemed to ask the right questions....

Brayshaw is a competitive beast, Petracca has been hurting his opponents since Auskick and Vanders just sees ball, gets ball.

The boys that didn't make it were very poor decisions and new clubs couldn't help them either...

the way they start (new draftees) is imperative. It forges they're attitudes for their careers. These boys were unlucky they came to melbourne at the time they did, which had an existing rotten culture, that was mediocre, with some talented players who had ability, but amateur attitudes.

there is no guarantees for draftees re making it, but sure as hell its much tougher at clubs with soft cultures.

[rpfc 28,052]

The draft should be altered - all eligible players should be 2 years removed from high school.

The number of terrible decisions made by clubs would go down dramatically.

I have argued this for years and I know it scares people but the usefulness of the draft as a measure of equalisation would only increase if this were the case.

[Little Richard 6,216]

The draft should be altered - all eligible players should be 2 years removed from high school.

The number of terrible decisions made by clubs would go down dramatically.

I have argued this for years and I know it scares people but the usefulness of the draft as a measure of equalisation would only increase if this were the case.

I wonder what the AFLPA's views on altering the draft age would be?

[Macca 16,648]

The draft should be altered - all eligible players should be 2 years removed from high school.

The number of terrible decisions made by clubs would go down dramatically.

I have argued this for years and I know it scares people but the usefulness of the draft as a measure of equalisation would only increase if this were the case.

I agree and here's how I see things working if the draft age was lifted by 2 years ... just some random ideas ...

• Either an Australia wide under 20 competition being formed or just leaving the TAC as it is but lifting it to under 20's ... the national under age championships could be expanded though ... other interstate comps could stay as they are. I'd favour a nationwide under 20 competition though.

• The top 80-100 juniors to be paid a decent "youth allowance" (from a certain age) to offset those juniors being swept away by other sports. It should be remembered that the Sheffield shield in Australian cricket is heavily subsidised by CA - it must cost CA an absolute fortune to run that competition but it's vital money, well spent. The AFL is cash rich so it's a no-brainer in many ways.

• A certain amount of the under 20 players could be aligned with an AFL club - along the lines of an academy and/or zone ... these players could be "listed" by the clubs that they are aligned with at draft time ... they would still however all play predominately in the feeder comp until drafted. These players could simply be listed by the clubs at draft time instead of using an actual draft number to attain them (up to a maximum of 3-4 players) The actual draft could be reserved for those players who aren't aligned with an AFL club.

• These same pre-listed players could spend some time at their AFL aligned club before draft time. Perhaps a number of these players could play a certain amount of games with a clubs reserves team or such-like.

• We could also lift the draft age by 2 years in an incremental way ... say, 3-6 months at a time. Again, this could be done to offset the threat from other sports.

There would obviously need to be other things done if the draft age was lifted by 2 years but the above covers the bare necessities. Whether the AFL actually acts or not is another question - there may be other ways of fixing things or perhaps we could just accept the way the draft is right now (flaws and all) Again, the above is not a template, just some random thoughts.

Time for a cup of tea