DB had a clear plan with his drafting requirements. He was looking for pace and good disposal. He was also planning for a long slow build, so we often went for bottom age players who were seen as having a lot of potential and met his criteria, but might take longer to develop. Thus we find ourselves with a raft of guys who look great when they can run free along the flanks, use their pace to burn off opponents and take their time to hit targets. When the opposition allowed us to do this (Sydney 2010 for instance), we looked golden. Unfortunately, too many sides figured out that we had nothing when it came to winning contested ball and simply refused to let our sleek running machines have those free possessions. Now we have Mark Neeld coming in and telling these guys that it's all very well being able to play a free-flowing attacking game, but they can only do that if they can get in there and win the ball for themselves. The question for these guys is whether they can learn to do the grunt work. If they can then our last five years worth of drafting will be fine, if not then we'll be trading them on and trying to get some decent hard players into the club.

For those who haven't seen it....Mark Neeld Press Conference

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/tabid/8667/contentid/429314/default.aspx#playvideo

It made me feel better...

Whilst I don't particularly like Malthouse, surely he has hit the nail pretty much on the head.

A coach with a game plan, provided that he is able and prepared to let it evolve especially if it ain't working, is a nice change.

And I am sure he is goading Watts, as many here are - Jack, are you up to the challenge, do you really want it?? I doubt I he would waste his breath if he felt he was a lost cause.

And from what I saw of Saturday, wasn't the essential difference clean ball use, and gut running to position? We seemed to win a lot more hard ball than last year, which is a start to moving forward. Now we must move on and use it better, which requires those upfield to offer genuine options, and not just one. We have been extremely lazy, unbeleivably so, in this respect over the last few years, and MN will surely not tolerate it any more.

I totally agree with everything Mick Malthouse had to say.

Let's hope Mark Neeld and Mick Malthouse still talk often.

Culture change.

Players change.

Game Plan Change.

Club change.

After we tick those boxes, we can start talking finals.

I look at two rookies in Couch and Magner and they show so much more in contested footy than these high price recruits.

Why would that be surprising.

Couch and Magner are 24 (or going on), they've effectively been in the system for 5- 6 years, which is 3 or even 4 years longer than the names that are being bandied about here. They're men, with men's bodies, and yes, are harder all round.

At least compare apples to apples.

Going to be a long year for some of you.

Why would that be surprising.

Couch and Magner are 24 (or going on), they've effectively been in the system for 5- 6 years, which is 3 or even 4 years longer than the names that are being bandied about here. They're men, with men's bodies, and yes, are harder all round.

At least compare apples to apples.

Going to be a long year for some of you.

Yes but teams like Hawthorn also have a good dose of 20 year olds, who both learn quickly & go in hard as if second nature...rather than making excuses..we have to get these kids firing..

Listening to Neeld's Presser, i think he is acutely aware of this.

Yes but teams like Hawthorn also have a good dose of 20 year olds, who both learn quickly & go in hard as if second nature...rather than making excuses..we have to get these kids firing..

Listening to Neeld's Presser, i think he is acutely aware of this.

Who's making excuses? I didn't. Neeld didn't. None of the players did.

I don't accept that it was Hawthorn's 20 year olds who took us apart on Saturday, it was the same old hardened warriors who've been doing it for years. They didn't recently win a premiership for nothing.

It just takes time, I don't see that as making an excuse, it's just the way it is. If it wasn't like that, we should all be shaking in our boots at the thought of facing all the mega-stars at GWS.

Who's making excuses? I didn't. Neeld didn't. None of the players did.

I don't accept that it was Hawthorn's 20 year olds who took us apart on Saturday, it was the same old hardened warriors who've been doing it for years. They didn't recently win a premiership for nothing.

It just takes time, I don't see that as making an excuse, it's just the way it is. If it wasn't like that, we should all be shaking in our boots at the thought of facing all the mega-stars at GWS.

That's right bing 181, but these 20 year old really held their own and crashed packs and attacked packs and made position and disposed effectively and found space and ran and ran and ran and ran.......

WYL is right, we have to fire these kids up or they'll quickly become a trivial pursuit question at some primary school fund raiser.

Who's making excuses? I didn't. Neeld didn't. None of the players did.

I don't accept that it was Hawthorn's 20 year olds who took us apart on Saturday, it was the same old hardened warriors who've been doing it for years. They didn't recently win a premiership for nothing.

It just takes time, I don't see that as making an excuse, it's just the way it is. If it wasn't like that, we should all be shaking in our boots at the thought of facing all the mega-stars at GWS.

Bing, these 20 year olds do there bit for the Hawks...every year. That is my point...They don't shelter them.

If we don't sharpen up soon...Free Agency will have the final say..

I know it takes time...we have already done 4 1/2 years.

That's right bing 181, but these 20 year old really held their own and crashed packs and attacked packs and made position and disposed effectively and found space and ran and ran and ran and ran.......

WYL is right, we have to fire these kids up or they'll quickly become a trivial pursuit question at some primary school fund raiser.

It was Paul Roos who said something along the lines of "The 1st few years of a draftee are the most important , you get to shape the way that player plays the game" .

The actual wording may be a little different but the main point of what he was saying struck a cord .

Interesting times ahead .

Cheers

smart man but rude as hell

Why would that be surprising.

Couch and Magner are 24 (or going on), they've effectively been in the system for 5- 6 years, which is 3 or even 4 years longer than the names that are being bandied about here. They're men, with men's bodies, and yes, are harder all round.

hang on..having a mature body certainly helps but Scully for instance had no problem with avoiding contested footy when he started. Nor did someone like Gysberts.

I stand by my examples Watts, Morton and Bennell.

Morton especially. I wonder what evidence we had he was going to be good when things got tough?

my point is these blokes (Couch and Magner) look light years ahead in contested footy. and remember our 'new' recruits have had a few seasons now. the old rookie excuse is wearing thin when blokes can't hold a basic tackle.

Culture change.

Players change.

Game Plan Change.

Club change.

After we tick those boxes, we can start talking finals.

Players change - Tick

Game Plan Change - Tick

Culture change

+

Club change - LOL kidding yourself. This club will never be bigger than the establishment.

I do a little bit of coaching (school kids and senior women) and the one thing that I've discovered over the journey is how important 3 or 4 players can be. We can talk about structures and tactics and development and culture and go round and round and round. We can compare ourselves to other teams and compare our young players to others. Over the past three years (and arguably the last 40) it has been blatantly obvious that we've been 3 or 4 players short of a decent, competitive week in, week out team and these 3 or 4 have been experienced, hard-bodied leaders. Add Mitchell, Sewell, Hodge and Franklin to the Dees and our younger players would walk taller and play accordingly. Our midfield rotations would have genuine depth. Our lesser midfield lights would receive less tagging attention and our key forwards would get lesser defenders and our defenders would have more confidence to take the game on and support their team-mates. In short, pressure would be taken off the youngest third of our list to lead the rest. An example would be provided on and off the field to follow. We simply don't have that experienced core. The football department admitted as much when they appointed a 20 year old and a 22 year old as co-captains. The addition of Clark is bloody important. Couch and Magner will give us grunt and competition and depth but the reality is, we'll lack the midfield class until Gysberts, Strauss and Blease all mature (physically and mentally). For mine, Trengove must become elite and Grimes will need to stay relatively injury free. Add Viney and an experienced midfielder with our compo picks and the worm will start to turn quickly. If Jones continues to improve and Sylvia finally has the break out season we've all been waiting for then within 2 seasons we'll have the experienced, match-hardened engine room that we crave. A midfield group of Trengove, Gysberts, Jones, Grimes, Blease, Viney, Sylvia, McKenzie, Bail and let's say for the point of the exercise (Jack Redden/Patrick Dangerfield/Dion Prestia trade with compo picks). I'm not convinced that Moloney will be good enough in a couple of seasons and I'm also not giving up on Morton. If a Tynan or a Taggert or a 2012 draft pick can be added successfully to this group then we have the 12 that we'll need. We'll also have a good mix of experience. We know that our bookends are pretty good. It's all about the midfield. It looks like we've got the grunt - now we need to get the games into the above list and hope that the better kicks develop the engine and the attitude to compete consistently. We're 3 or 4 players away - the question is how many of them are already on our list?

I do a little bit of coaching (school kids and senior women) and the one thing that I've discovered over the journey is how important 3 or 4 players can be. We can talk about structures and tactics and development and culture and go round and round and round. We can compare ourselves to other teams and compare our young players to others. Over the past three years (and arguably the last 40) it has been blatantly obvious that we've been 3 or 4 players short of a decent, competitive week in, week out team and these 3 or 4 have been experienced, hard-bodied leaders. Add Mitchell, Sewell, Hodge and Franklin to the Dees and our younger players would walk taller and play accordingly. Our midfield rotations would have genuine depth. Our lesser midfield lights would receive less tagging attention and our key forwards would get lesser defenders and our defenders would have more confidence to take the game on and support their team-mates. In short, pressure would be taken off the youngest third of our list to lead the rest. An example would be provided on and off the field to follow. We simply don't have that experienced core. The football department admitted as much when they appointed a 20 year old and a 22 year old as co-captains. The addition of Clark is bloody important. Couch and Magner will give us grunt and competition and depth but the reality is, we'll lack the midfield class until Gysberts, Strauss and Blease all mature (physically and mentally). For mine, Trengove must become elite and Grimes will need to stay relatively injury free. Add Viney and an experienced midfielder with our compo picks and the worm will start to turn quickly. If Jones continues to improve and Sylvia finally has the break out season we've all been waiting for then within 2 seasons we'll have the experienced, match-hardened engine room that we crave. A midfield group of Trengove, Gysberts, Jones, Grimes, Blease, Viney, Sylvia, McKenzie, Bail and let's say for the point of the exercise (Jack Redden/Patrick Dangerfield/Dion Prestia trade with compo picks). I'm not convinced that Moloney will be good enough in a couple of seasons and I'm also not giving up on Morton. If a Tynan or a Taggert or a 2012 draft pick can be added successfully to this group then we have the 12 that we'll need. We'll also have a good mix of experience. We know that our bookends are pretty good. It's all about the midfield. It looks like we've got the grunt - now we need to get the games into the above list and hope that the better kicks develop the engine and the attitude to compete consistently. We're 3 or 4 players away - the question is how many of them are already on our list?

Great observations.......but, the world doesn't stand still. The press (as a game plan) came in three or four years ago, yet our club is implementing it now! We're miles behind polished, great kicking sides that will murder us if we don't hold our composure. By the time we're ready so will GCS, GWS, Tigers, Roos, Freo etc etc. The players need to get better now. They've had about 500 games pumped into them by now and it's time to roll.

I do a little bit of coaching (school kids and senior women) and the one thing that I've discovered over the journey is how important 3 or 4 players can be. We can talk about structures and tactics and development and culture and go round and round and round. We can compare ourselves to other teams and compare our young players to others. Over the past three years (and arguably the last 40) it has been blatantly obvious that we've been 3 or 4 players short of a decent, competitive week in, week out team and these 3 or 4 have been experienced, hard-bodied leaders. Add Mitchell, Sewell, Hodge and Franklin to the Dees and our younger players would walk taller and play accordingly. Our midfield rotations would have genuine depth. Our lesser midfield lights would receive less tagging attention and our key forwards would get lesser defenders and our defenders would have more confidence to take the game on and support their team-mates. In short, pressure would be taken off the youngest third of our list to lead the rest. An example would be provided on and off the field to follow. We simply don't have that experienced core. The football department admitted as much when they appointed a 20 year old and a 22 year old as co-captains. The addition of Clark is bloody important. Couch and Magner will give us grunt and competition and depth but the reality is, we'll lack the midfield class until Gysberts, Strauss and Blease all mature (physically and mentally). For mine, Trengove must become elite and Grimes will need to stay relatively injury free. Add Viney and an experienced midfielder with our compo picks and the worm will start to turn quickly. If Jones continues to improve and Sylvia finally has the break out season we've all been waiting for then within 2 seasons we'll have the experienced, match-hardened engine room that we crave. A midfield group of Trengove, Gysberts, Jones, Grimes, Blease, Viney, Sylvia, McKenzie, Bail and let's say for the point of the exercise (Jack Redden/Patrick Dangerfield/Dion Prestia trade with compo picks). I'm not convinced that Moloney will be good enough in a couple of seasons and I'm also not giving up on Morton. If a Tynan or a Taggert or a 2012 draft pick can be added successfully to this group then we have the 12 that we'll need. We'll also have a good mix of experience. We know that our bookends are pretty good. It's all about the midfield. It looks like we've got the grunt - now we need to get the games into the above list and hope that the better kicks develop the engine and the attitude to compete consistently. We're 3 or 4 players away - the question is how many of them are already on our list?

Great post.

Nothing at all to add to that.

Its all about expectations people. Malthouse has been in the game for a long time. Is it luck that he has coached premierships and his teams have played in so many finals series? I think not. He has expected and demanded "elite" output.

Neeld is starting the long journey to get this into our players heads. JW or whoever it may be needs to know, expectations are higher now.

Its human nature. If you aim low, you're only going to achieve low. By setting what may seem like unrealistic goals at the time, people amaze themselves at what they can achieve.

All our players should (and I believe are) be pushed and expected to reach levels they never thought possible before. Through this, they'll be better players, individuals and a better footy team. It will separate the ones that can handle it and those who can't.

"If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen"

Great observations.......but, the world doesn't stand still. The press (as a game plan) came in three or four years ago, yet our club is implementing it now! We're miles behind polished, great kicking sides that will murder us if we don't hold our composure. By the time we're ready so will GCS, GWS, Tigers, Roos, Freo etc etc. The players need to get better now. They've had about 500 games pumped into them by now and it's time to roll.

If we're ready with five other teams at the same time then I'll be happy. Top 6 for 6 years - I like those odds.

I agree with Goodvibes and the proof is in Kyle Cheney. The last senior game I saw him play for us he had a go but was soundly beaten and turned the ball over on a number of occasions, he didn't look up to AFL standard. I'm not saying he will be a walk up start at Hawthorn, he will probably struggle for a regular game but he looked a polished player the other night with the Hawks. It's those 3, 4 or 5 top liners that make the difference for all the reasons stated above by Goovibes and others on this forum. Let's see who can step up this year.

Pretty well said by Mick, as much as I hate to admit it. That said, he was getting a royal bagging by all and sundry early last year, and then turned his season around and earnt quite alot of praise on here and in the media, so maybe we all need to chill a bit. I would like to see more obvious effort from him, but am willing to give him more time.

Great observations.......but, the world doesn't stand still. The press (as a game plan) came in three or four years ago, yet our club is implementing it now! We're miles behind polished, great kicking sides that will murder us if we don't hold our composure. By the time we're ready so will GCS, GWS, Tigers, Roos, Freo etc etc. The players need to get better now. They've had about 500 games pumped into them by now and it's time to roll.

Roos will have a side that is always hard to beat but that is it, there is a difference in making the 8 and building a side to have a decent crack when their time comes around, for Freo they better do something in the next 2 years because after that it's bye bye to Pav, Sandy & Mcpharlin, whilst GWS will need to do something more to attract and keep quality players,they will have some extra coin but there will also be the go home factor for a lot. Tigers and GC for me are the biggest threats but as they say a lot can happen in 12 months if you have the core nucleus like West Coast a couple of fresh faces in there with Cox, Kerr, Glass & Lecras and all of a sudden your right back in it

Yes but teams like Hawthorn also have a good dose of 20 year olds, who both learn quickly & go in hard as if second nature...rather than making excuses..we have to get these kids firing..

Listening to Neeld's Presser, i think he is acutely aware of this.

Thats the culture thing. and the culture of the supporters influences the gamestyle the club tolerates.

I've heard MFC supporters criticise our players for being too dirty. And we got rid of Pike. The politically correctness kills Us.

I want us to be ruthlless again, brash rugged & hard bastards. Like we were with Barassi playing. And Mcmahon.

Bring back Grinter days. Bring back the Viney ways. Biffen.

We need to be able to play Elite footy. And we need to be able to crush opponents physically as well. Intimidate.

Thats the culture thing. and the culture of the supporters influences the gamestyle the club tolerates.

I've heard MFC supporters criticise our players for being too dirty. And we got rid of Pike. The politically correctness kills Us.

I want us to be ruthlless again, brash rugged & hard bastards. Like we were with Barassi playing. And Mcmahon.

Bring back Grinter days. Bring back the Viney ways. Biffen.

We need to be able to play Elite footy. And we need to be able to crush opponents physically as well. Intimidate.

Mate i got smashed on here relentlessly a few years back for mentioning Martin Pike, and the fact that he won 4 flags & thus would be a good person to have a "supervised" chat to our young list.

But of course this would turn our list into alcoholics so it was a ridiculous idea!

We must find some mongrel element somewhere.

Nice teams don't win September epics in AFL.

_{Watts is a basketballer playing footy. But then again, so is Pendlebury and Tippet. I can guarantee you that JW was the type of player that played up fouls, physical contact and took a dive to get a call. Pendlebury wasn't that type, he was solid, played hard, kept his feet and crashed the boards. Unfortunately, it's hard to change your 'style' of play. It's ingrained early on, just ike your personality. As a CHF (or any KP player), JW doesn't have that aggression. Watch his contests at the ball. He'll take the soft option every time. If he's in front he'll play for a push in the back. If he's caught behind , he'll play for the free for being held out (he did this Saturday and gort a ridiculous free for it) but if he gets a nice high ball set up for him and a guy happens to be under it, he'll attack the ball.}

_{These things will not change.}