Norm Smith

[Sir Why You Little 34,657]

I am re-reading Red Fox at present and I think painting Smith as a martyr in Melbourne's demise is not the way to go. Towards the end of '64 an undeclared war between the committee and Smith had led BOTH Smith and Barassi to shop around for gigs at either Carlton or Richmond. The root cause of this appears to be Melbourne's unwillingness to join the dawning cheque book recruitment campaign of competing clubs which was rapidly overtaking the Demons' list. Smith's tantrum over Umpire Blew's alleged bias in at match during '64 also indicated Smith was losing his sure touch... undoubtedly frustrated by Melbourne's declining list he was getting frayed and trying to squeeze more out of less.

At the end of '64 we lost Barassi, Adams and Roet and i think our only signficant gain in '65 was Stan Alves. It pains me to remember supporting the shell of the demons team through the 60's when we had lapsed into irrelevance. it pains me that i continued to follow the demons through the 70's and on to the present day, all the time shackled with the memory 'what if' the Smith/Barassi reign hadn't disintegrated. Despite all this, I am glad to say that I am still "Melbourne" and can see brighter days ahead.

You make some good points Bush. All of them i agree with. How the board didn't realize $$$ were coming into the game is deplorable. But i still believe when Smithy was Sacked for those 2 days? a connection within the club was lost. Building a statue at the MCG will help immensly. Norm will be home again forever.

We Demon supporters should all be at the unvieling.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,192]

I know i posted this link....but as many have pointed out it is one of those clips you can watch over and over again and it really captivated you, its so believable is obviously real but it puts shivers down my spine nearly every time. Norm Smith really bled for our team, and it is ridiculous to think that the board at the time didnt back and sacked the now Coach of the Century. so very diappointing and was the thing which spiraled our club into half a century of obscurity really.

Amazed, listening to Norm, just how closely Ron Barassi speaks like he did. The way he emphasizes certain words. Wonderful, sad interview.

[Sdemon53 15]

Just started read The Red Fox last night, it's been sitting on my shelf all year. There's also a website (theredfox.com.au) where you can view his (and his brother Len's) iconic coaching booklet "Lectures on Football" amongst other things.

I only read the first chapter so far but what really interested me was the Forward written by his son in which he states that the thing that upset Norm the most in his time in football wasn't the sacking in 1965, but the members failing to vote him onto the board 2 years later in 1967. Apparently that really got to him and basically ended his 35 year tenure with the club. Considering our incompetence in administration since the golden age I wondered how different things might have been had we had a giant like Smith on the board.

Norm would have been a lone wolf on the board. He would have shown them to be the useless lot that they were. That is why the board made sure he did not get elected. We will never know the truth of the result but it would not surprise me if there was some creative accountancy going on. From memory I think the voting was a lot more restrictive than it is today.

If Norm Smith had got onto the board he also would have fought like hell to build a far stronger team. To do this the MCC would have to financially back the football club a lot more than it wanted to do. So as you may gather Norm Smith was really up against it from the start.

[Very Old Demon 8]

You make some good points Bush. All of them i agree with. How the board didn't realize $$$ were coming into the game is deplorable. But i still believe when Smithy was Sacked for those 2 days? a connection within the club was lost. Building a statue at the MCG will help immensly. Norm will be home again forever.

We Demon supporters should all be at the unvieling.

Wonderfull suggestion. As a kid I had the opportunity to see Norm play. I think his no was 4. Stand corrected. Best memory again 1948. Grand Finals Norm was selected at CHF with Jack Mueller at FF. Jack stood in the goal sq all the forwards drifted up to the centre would grab the ball and pump it down to Jack most times one out. From reading on the Forum I feel Neeld may be in the mould of Norm,big call. Great times ahead. Give up never won a race.

[PartyTimeJohnny 533]

about 100 pages through the The Red Fox currently, for a book filled with statistics and names from 80 years ago, its incredibly compelling.

[Sdemon53 15]

Wonderfull suggestion. As a kid I had the opportunity to see Norm play. I think his no was 4. Stand corrected. Best memory again 1948. Grand Finals Norm was selected at CHF with Jack Mueller at FF. Jack stood in the goal sq all the forwards drifted up to the centre would grab the ball and pump it down to Jack most times one out. From reading on the Forum I feel Neeld may be in the mould of Norm,big call. Great times ahead. Give up never won a race.

Yes he wore jumper No.4 except in 1939 when he had jumper No.3 while he played for Melbourne.

[Sir Why You Little 34,657]

about 100 pages through the The Red Fox currently, for a book filled with statistics and names from 80 years ago, its incredibly compelling.

Yes it is very well written i thought. For the entire ride i felt as though i was sitting on the authors shoulders. Inside houses, boardrooms, changerooms & watching games at an old MCG...must read it again!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I am re-reading Red Fox at present and I think painting Smith as a martyr in Melbourne's demise is not the way to go. Towards the end of '64 an undeclared war between the committee and Smith had led BOTH Smith and Barassi to shop around for gigs at either Carlton or Richmond. The root cause of this appears to be Melbourne's unwillingness to join the dawning cheque book recruitment campaign of competing clubs which was rapidly overtaking the Demons' list. Smith's tantrum over Umpire Blew's alleged bias in at match during '64 also indicated Smith was losing his sure touch... undoubtedly frustrated by Melbourne's declining list he was getting frayed and trying to squeeze more out of less.

At the end of '64 we lost Barassi, Adams and Roet and i think our only signficant gain in '65 was Stan Alves. It pains me to remember supporting the shell of the demons team through the 60's when we had lapsed into irrelevance. it pains me that i continued to follow the demons through the 70's and on to the present day, all the time shackled with the memory 'what if' the Smith/Barassi reign hadn't disintegrated. Despite all this, I am glad to say that I am still "Melbourne" and can see brighter days ahead.

Good thoughts bush demon. It would also be instructive to know which player losses we had in the period from end of 1960 to 1964. At the time Adams Roet and Barassi were big losses. But there were also retirements of a number of players from the great 1950's teams. It was the end of an era. There were winds of change in the game which in hindsight should have seemed easy to predict but in reality were clearly not so at the time.

[bush demon 1,901]

Good thoughts bush demon. It would also be instructive to know which player losses we had in the period from end of 1960 to 1964. At the time Adams Roet and Barassi were big losses. But there were also retirements of a number of players from the great 1950's teams. It was the end of an era. There were winds of change in the game which in hindsight should have seemed easy to predict but in reality were clearly not so at the time.

The player losses starting 1961 are listed in Red Fox, there were at least seven premiership players still in working order who left in that period: Bob Johnson, Mithen, ridley, dennis jones, i can't remember the others without going back to the book. For summer reading and further enlightenment I suggest for summer reading the biog. on Tom Wills. It seems he also had ongoing disputes with committees not dissimilar to Smith. Both legends of the colours and the backbone of our heritage, and both flawed champions. Smith encoded the formula for red and blue multiple premierships and lesser men mopped up his bounty from the late 60's onwards, to our club's sorrow.

[monoccular 16,254]

I hope that Mark Neeld, and for that matter all the new staff have read the book.

We need a new Norm Smith -- Mark, are you a worthy successor??

[Sdemon53 15]

bush demon and Whispering_Jack you are right to a certain extent. The reality as was hinted by bush demon (said board) the MCC was not willing to increase its financial support so the Melbourne Football Club could compete in the recruiting stakes. The other problem was the large percentage of MCC members that followed Melbourne considered their MCC fees meant they also supported the MFC. Therefore we had a low membership.

So therefore because of the Melbourne setup and out dated thinking the board did not support Norm Smith. The other factor here is that the board members would also be MCC members with 2 representing the MCC. From what I have been told Jim Cardwell also had more than his share of fights with the board and MCC.

The other big factor here is Sir Albert Chadwick as Chairman of the board. From what I have been told Sir Albert was a brilliant negotiator and leader. Sir Albert retired from the board at the end of 1962.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,623]

What a great read is "the Red Fox"!!!!Thoroughly recommended!!

While reading it I was taken back to those great times when we just assumed we' d win the flag!

What a catastrophic calamity it was to lose Norm, and then Ron!!!!!

But, on reflection, perhaps history might not have been so different had it not happened.

We enjoyed an enormous advantage being the only side playing on the MCG...we even trained there!!Now opposition supporters outnumber ours in all but interstate games, and even that is debatable v. Sydney and Brisbane. Also I think we suffered by not having a suburban source of supporters like Ess. ,Coll. and Carlton. The termination of the alliance with the MCC exacerbated this.

Was it bad luck, or bad recruiting, but Robbie Flower was the only genuine superstar we've had since Norm went. Compare that to Haw, Ess , North ,Rich,Coll and Carlton.

Edited December 21, 2011 by JUMPING JACK CLENNETT

[Deeoldfart 7,788]

As I've said elsewhere, I enjoyed every word of the The Red Fox. I'm also thoroughly enjoying some great contributions and insights in this thread. Thanks guys. Great stuff!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The player losses starting 1961 are listed in Red Fox, there were at least seven premiership players still in working order who left in that period: Bob Johnson, Mithen, ridley, dennis jones, i can't remember the others without going back to the book. For summer reading and further enlightenment I suggest for summer reading the biog. on Tom Wills. It seems he also had ongoing disputes with committees not dissimilar to Smith. Both legends of the colours and the backbone of our heritage, and both flawed champions. Smith encoded the formula for red and blue multiple premierships and lesser men mopped up his bounty from the late 60's onwards, to our club's sorrow.

The MFC era of success was not just one man. It was a number of players, officials. The success did not stop with the departure of one person. Smith's departure was the highest profile of them. But MFC enjoyed access and service from some of the top footballers in the land. Through the MCC, MFC was able to offer benefits that other clubs could not. MFC had access to the benefits of the MCC and MCG that belittled other clubs. But the game was slowly changing. And many of the people who saw the rise of MFC in its heyday were also prominent in its fall from grace (eg Jim Caldwell - recruiting).

What a catastrophic calamity it was to lose Norm, and then Ron!!!!!

But, on reflection, perhaps history might not have been so different had it not happened.

We enjoyed an enormous advantage being the only side playing on the MCG...we even trained there!!Now opposition supporters outnumber ours in all but interstate games, and even that is debatable v. Sydney and Brisbane. Also I think we suffered by not having a suburban source of supporters like Ess. ,Coll. and Carlton. The termination of the alliance with the MCC exacerbated this.

Was it bad luck, or bad recruiting, but Robbie Flower was the only genuine superstar we've had since Norm went. Compare that to Haw, Ess , North ,Rich,Coll and Carlton.

It was more than just Smith and Barassi going. Great point about the advantages of the MCC and MCG. As far as recruiting is concerned, MFC no longer had the leg up on other sides in regards benefits. And its also worth noting that we lacked a product suburban base to source supporters.

[Sir Why You Little 34,657]

All good and insightful comments above. What i have never understood is how these glaring problems were not addressed and fixed up during the 70's when $$$ and TV really kicked in.

Did the MFC hierachy just expect it to all get better?

Shocking planning by those involved.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The problems were only glaring in hindsight. There was a long period of evolution of issues

And to set the record straight it was the MCC hierachy that controlled the outcomes. Football was changing and it was no longer appropriate to have the football club treated on a similar amateur basis to the cricket, hockey and other clubs. During the 70s there was growing tension between the football club and the cricket club which culminated in the football club went its own way. By that time the glory days for MFC were well and truly history.

[Sir Why You Little 34,657]

I agree. But the MFC must have watched all these other clubs rise around it. It has always amazed me that the club let all this happen without putting up a fight. I mean we had just as many influential supporters as Carlscum if you read "Footy Inc." the 70's seemed to be a decade of complete sleep in terms of future planning.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I agree. But the MFC must have watched all these other clubs rise around it. It has always amazed me that the club let all this happen without putting up a fight. I mean we had just as many influential supporters as Carlscum if you read "Footy Inc." the 70's seemed to be a decade of complete sleep in terms of future planning.

Given the MFC was an arm of the MCC and all MFC decisions of consequence were subject to MCC approval/veto, the MCC was not moving in the same direction as some of the aspiring clubs like Hawthorn, Carlton and Richmond. In addition each of those Clubs had a key off field mover and shaker. Bert Deacon (Carlton) and Graeme Richmond (Richmond) were influential in creating the champion sides they were. The MFC/MCC structure and the increasing diverging interests meant that MFC could not respond to the challenges ahead of it.

And when it came to supporters, most/many MFC supporters would have been MCC members and the blur between the two outfits would have been greater. In addition, as a legacy MFC lacked a regional grassroots community where such club revivals can come from.

And given the nature of the competition back then and the financial immaturity of Clubs, planning never extended beyond six months.

[Sir Why You Little 34,657]

Given the MFC was an arm of the MCC and all MFC decisions of consequence were subject to MCC approval/veto, the MCC was not moving in the same direction as some of the aspiring clubs like Hawthorn, Carlton and Richmond. In addition each of those Clubs had a key off field mover and shaker. Bert Deacon (Carlton) and Graeme Richmond (Richmond) were influential in creating the champion sides they were. The MFC/MCC structure and the increasing diverging interests meant that MFC could not respond to the challenges ahead of it.

And when it came to supporters, most/many MFC supporters would have been MCC members and the blur between the two outfits would have been greater. In addition, as a legacy MFC lacked a regional grassroots community where such club revivals can come from.

And given the nature of the competition back then and the financial immaturity of Clubs, planning never extended beyond six months.

Incredible that so many people stood around and pretty much let this happen. Stuart Spencer was the first President since the '65 debacle to stand up and fight for the clubs survival. Up till around 85 the MFC was almost static apart from its debt. Years just blurred into each other.

It may not be perfect to some, but Jimmy Stynes & co have straightened this club up. Bought back an identity that will grow if managed properly.

[Sdemon53 15]

The MFC era of success was not just one man. It was a number of players, officials. The success did not stop with the departure of one person. Smith's departure was the highest profile of them. But MFC enjoyed access and service from some of the top footballers in the land. Through the MCC, MFC was able to offer benefits that other clubs could not. MFC had access to the benefits of the MCC and MCG that belittled other clubs. But the game was slowly changing. And many of the people who saw the rise of MFC in its heyday were also prominent in its fall from grace (eg Jim Caldwell - recruiting).

 

Please explain your comment here regarding Jim Cardwell. He was NOT prominent in its fall from grace. The fact is that Jim did not have the resources that the other clubs had. I suggest you read my post above. Everyone thinks it was Norm Smith but I can tell you without Jim Cardwell, Norm would not have had the players. The fact Jim was at the club until 1975 does not mean he did not try like hell to get the best players to the club with limited funds. Please be careful what you say and get your information right. I know I am right because I have spoken to players from the era plus having a friend that had a father that was a mate of Jim Cardwell.

 

It was more than just Smith and Barassi going. Great point about the advantages of the MCC and MCG. As far as recruiting is concerned, MFC no longer had the leg up on other sides in regards benefits. And its also worth noting that we lacked a product suburban base to source supporters.

[Whispering_Jack 28,013]

I asked in another thread about the legacy of the Norm Smith era. That doesn't mean the era was one that was dominated by one person in Smith but rather, that Norm was and always be the major figure associated with that enormously successful time in the club's history. Others included Ron Barassi and a bevy of players who formed part of a champion team and the legendary Jim Cardwell who was almost a one man band successfully running the club's administration and recruiting (today we probably employ 50 people to do what this man did single-handedly). And you can add others like Bert Chadwick who ran the show from committee level . If you look at the 2011 MFC yearbook @ page 32 the record shows the stability of the club in what I call the Norm Smith era.

At one stage, we went for a period of 11 years with the same people filling the roles of Chairman, Club Secretary and Team Coach. That's what I call stability which is a prerequisite for success in any organisation.

Looking back to the mid 1960s one would have expected things to go on like that forever but history tells a different story.

Our long period of success did indeed cast a long shadow over the club in the decades to come. We were prepared to rest on our laurels. We failed to keep up with the times as commercialism crept into the game and we lost our pride of place at the top of the tree. Perhaps, we thought the MCC connection would be our saviour but, in the end, it was the opposite. We didn't see the need for change.

By the end of the 60s we had hit rock bottom and over the next decade, we lagged far behind the other clubs. Nothing against Jim Cardwell but by the time he retired in 1975, we were light years behind the new VFL power houses like Richmond, Carlton and North Melbourne. When we finally saw the need to change it was too late - our business model was always half a generation behind the leaders.

Successive administrations were riven by divisions within, by power plays and by a lack of money. While some of the other clubs bought premierships, we had in fighting.

The divisions were maintained even when we split from the MCC and Barassi became coach. He instigated the Irish experiment and more importantly, got our junior development and recruiting off the floor but he had passed his best as a coach and couldn't work miracles.

We had our moments under Northey, Balme and Daniher. The grand final appearances of 1988 and 2000 filled us with hope. Balme's 1994 side might well have become a premiership team in the years to follow but for being blighted with injury.

But our history and our poor financial state weighed us down and always seemed to come back to haunt us. Whenever there was a light at the end of the tunnel we had something like the merger battle, Gutnick and Szondy and a balance sheet full of red ink and debt.

So it's clear that, since the Norm Smith era, our history has been dotted with periods of division and disharmony. That is not to say that these necessarily stem directly from the success of Norm Smith's era or from the episode of his sacking but they constitute the background to the club's condition to this very day.

I never thought in my wildest dreams that a Garry Lyon would take up the call to arms of an ill Jimmy Stynes who has already done so much to relieve us of the burden of our debt. However, the things he has achieved in such a short period of time and the way in which Mark Neeld has gone about doing his job to date is a promising start to the task of removing what is a heavy weight off the club.

I've remained an optimist most of the time since the Norm Smith era ended and, though I could well be wrong, I have a feeling that the era after the Fox is now finally coming to an end.

And thank goodness for that!

[bush demon 1,901]

Wouldn't it be poetic justice that Ron Barassi's Irish experiment - which led to the "Irish experiment" of running across the mark in the '87 prelim - also led to the ultimate revival of our club and its legends.

Edited December 24, 2011 by bush demon

[Pink Freud 325]

I've remained an optimist most of the time since the Norm Smith era ended and, though I could well be wrong, I have a feeling that the era after the Fox is now finally coming to an end.

And thank goodness for that!

To think that, absent the debacle of 186, we might have seen the reappointment of Dean Bailey as coach for another year or two, the mind boggles.

[Deeoldfart 7,788]

........................

I've remained an optimist most of the time since the Norm Smith era ended and, though I could well be wrong, I have a feeling that the era after the Fox is now finally coming to an end.

And thank goodness for that!

That's an excellent synopsis of the post Norm era WJ ...... and like you (and I suspect many others), I think we might, at last, have our house in order. I'll be drinking to that more than once over the festive season, and on a more sombre note, raising a glass of thanks and future good health to Jimmy.

[Spirit of the Demon 209]

That's an excellent synopsis of the post Norm era WJ ...... and like you (and I suspect many others), I think we might, at last, have our house in order. I'll be drinking to that more than once over the festive season, and on a more sombre note, raising a glass of thanks and future good health to Jimmy.

Amen to all of that.