The seeds of yesterday's humiliation

[The Chazz 4,077]

Not many people where saying that 11 rounds ago. Its amazing what you can do in 11 rounds of AFL football.

Not many knew that their better players were going to get back the form that helped win them a flag either.

[pitmaster 3,138]

Exactly as i see it. Junior would have struggled playing the game in 2011. He was 35 don't forget.

The right decision was made.

At the risk being accused of nitpicking - he was born October 1976 - he was 33 last season and is 34 now and will remain so until after the GF.

[Sir Why You Little 35,119]

At the risk being accused of nitpicking - he was born October 1976 - he was 33 last season and is 34 now and will remain so until after the GF.

Still doesn't change my opinion of what happened, but thanks for the info.

[Sir Why You Little 35,119]

The only thing that is an issue is the way it was done. Fair enough, Junior should've been the one that made the decision, but not if he was going to wait until the end of 2011. The decision had to be made at the end of 2010.

That is the Crux of the matter right there isn't it.

If the decision had been left up to junior he would have played on in 2011, or worse pulled the plug preseason thus denying the club of draft picks.

i know it sounds harsh, but it was far too much of a risk.

The right decision was made at the right time, and i think junior was a fabulous captain & player for us btw.

[daisycutter 28,709]

I always thought Jnr's retirement was a 50/50 decision

The "good" side for Jnr was that he went out on top, unlike many others who go a year too many and somewhat tarnish their reputation.

BTW I don't think such decisions (to retire/delist) should be left upto individuals. There is far too much money at stake. A player could be satisfied sitting out a year injured or playing in the magoos for $500k, esp if he doesn't have another career to fall back on. It would be impossible for a player (captain or not) to be totally objective about his form and ignore the money.

And yes, the club could have managed it better....but then they admit that.

[Longsufferingnomore 1,489]

Source? If you're going to use that as your arguement, you probably should back it up.

My source (an ex-Dee who also had the shoulder tap in recent years) told me that Junior was disappointed initially, but it didn't take him long to realise it was the right decision.

The only thing that is an issue is the way it was done. Fair enough, Junior should've been the one that made the decision, but not if he was going to wait until the end of 2011. The decision had to be made at the end of 2010.

My source has also told me that he was really disappointed how it all happened but he has moved on and typically Macca does not now hold any grudges.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,209]

Totally agree, they just went too far.

Unfortunately,our player management has over the years been appalling. Our so called youth policy is just not bearing any fruit. I really fear that teams like Richmond, North are going to push for a flag before us despite our quality draft picks in the past few years. Name another club who have sacked players of the calibre of McDonald, Woewoden, Robertson, Johnstone, Bruce, Jolley, Thompson and even Simon Buckley who is earning a game with the top team in the comp. Just what is our footy department thinking? I'm also sure that I have left out another couple of big names who have been given their marching orders.

[rpfc 27,653]

Unfortunately,our player management has over the years been appalling. Our so called youth policy is just not bearing any fruit. I really fear that teams like Richmond, North are going to push for a flag before us despite our quality draft picks in the past few years. Name another club who have sacked players of the calibre of McDonald, Woewoden, Robertson, Johnstone, Bruce, Jolley, Thompson and even Simon Buckley who is earning a game with the top team in the comp. Just what is our footy department thinking? I'm also sure that I have left out another couple of big names who have been given their marching orders.

Reject most of that.

The club should have reversed its Junior decision when Bruce left.

They didn't and we have suffered with onfield leadership.

[Choko 493]

Reject most of that.

The club should have reversed its Junior decision when Bruce left.

They didn't and we have suffered with onfield leadership.

The club couldn't reverse the decision the same way you can't unscramble an egg. The damage was already done.

[Tony Tea 2,792]

Would Melbourne have possible salary cap room to accommodate Scully if Miller, Bruce & McDonal play in 2011?

Would Melbourne be a better side in 2013 if James McDonald plays in 2011?

[rpfc 27,653]

The club couldn't reverse the decision the same way you can't unscramble an egg. The damage was already done.

They could have. It would have been embarrassing.

It would have been the braver option and the better one.

I argued for it at the time with similar opinions to yours in opposition.

Sometimes the best thing to do is admit a mistake and put the gear into R.

[Fork 'em 6,605]

In a couple years due to enabling the youth to get games , this thread could be "The seeds of yesterdays Triumph ......"

were planted when Dean Bailey sacked James McDonald.

Maybe abit more short term pain than we anticipated but then .... Who knows what woulda happened this year.

I'm bettin' Bruce didn't count on getting injured early . Looks like this year with the Dawks is going to be his last . Should he have taken our offer and remained a 1 club player ?

Wonder what he's thinking now .

BTW I don't think such decisions (to retire/delist) should be left upto individuals. There is far too much money at stake. A player could be satisfied sitting out a year injured or playing in the magoos for $500k, esp if he doesn't have another career to fall back on. It would be impossible for a player (captain or not) to be totally objective about his form and ignore the money.

And yes, the club could have managed it better....but then they admit that.

Couldn't have said it better myself .

Edited June 15, 2011 by Fork 'em

[Fork 'em 6,605]

They could have. It would have been embarrassing.

It would have been the braver option and the better one.

I argued for it at the time with similar opinions to yours in opposition.

Sometimes the best thing to do is admit a mistake and put the gear into R.

And have the proud MacDonald tell us to bash it up our A.

Now that would be embarrassing .

[The Chazz 4,077]

Well, firstly, the club apologised for the manner in which it handled the issue. So they see how else it could have been done.

But I'll have a go.

I am of the belief that a captain has earned the right to make his own decision about retirement. By being captain, we are saying he is the ultimate man for selflessly promoting team over self. Therefore, I don't think it was or should have been the club's call.

But even if you disagree with that, as I appreciate many would, warning and giving appropriate time and consultation to James that notwithstanding his good form, this would be his final year. We ahve full time list manager, player liaison, all that crap.... it's the least we should have done for a captain.

He is [censored] at the club, and rightly so. Other players were and are too.

Choko - still waiting for a source about htis comment. It is totally incorrect and unjustifiable.

They could have. It would have been embarrassing.

It would have been the braver option and the better one.

I argued for it at the time with similar opinions to yours in opposition.

Sometimes the best thing to do is admit a mistake and put the gear into R.

I hope you weren't one of the posters that paid me out for wanting to hand "Sign Up Tom" banners at our last home game. IIRC, my proposal reeked of desperation for most. I can't see how going back to Junior saying "we made the wrong decision, please come back" doesn't have the same smell.

Edited June 15, 2011 by billy2803

[rpfc 27,653]

I hope you weren't one of the posters that paid me out for wanting to hand "Sign Up Tom" banners at our last home game. IIRC, my proposal reeked of desperation for most. I can't see how going back to Junior saying "we made the wrong decision, please come back" doesn't have the same smell.

No I didn't criticise you about the banners. Fans are entitled to let their feeling known at games - banners a re a timed honoured tradition at sporting events as a way of 'talking loudly' enough to get attention.

Fans who just want the best outcome for their club.

The best outcome would be to have an extra leader to take the pressure off Green, Davey, et al.

We should have swallowed our pride - we don't have a great deal, so we wouldn't have choked...

[daisycutter 28,709]

We should have swallowed our pride - we don't have a great deal, so we wouldn't have choked...

LMAO :)

[Sir Why You Little 35,119]

No I didn't criticise you about the banners. Fans are entitled to let their feeling known at games - banners a re a timed honoured tradition at sporting events as a way of 'talking loudly' enough to get attention.

Fans who just want the best outcome for their club.

The best outcome would be to have an extra leader to take the pressure off Green, Davey, et al.

We should have swallowed our pride - we don't have a great deal, so we wouldn't have choked...

No you can't reverse a decision...That is dream time stuff.

Junior was rightly retired Thus Luke Tapscott was debuted.

Yes we are lacking in leadership right now, But as you have repeatedly said rpfc. This is not a flag year, we are building for the future.

[pitmaster 3,138]

No you can't reverse a decision...That is dream time stuff.

Junior was rightly retired Thus Luke Tapscott was debuted.

Yes we are lacking in leadership right now, But as you have repeatedly said rpfc. This is not a flag year, we are building for the future.

Someting overlooked in all the above is that without sufficient leadership kids can get burned out or hurt in ways that prevent them ever reaching their potential.

That is why GC and GWS are intent on recruiting some mature bodies, and it is something we lack. That is why those rationalisations for getting rid of JMac on the grounds of "putting more games into kids" are slightly misled.

If you want an example of someone who was thrown to the wolves never to achieve his percieved potential, think Josh Fraser.

[Rogue 585]

The end can come very quickly for players. Who's to say McDonald would have kept up his form of 2010? Who's to say he wouldn't have had injury concerns equal or worse?

Were the WB helped by having Johnson running around last year?

[Sir Why You Little 35,119]

Someting overlooked in all the above is that without sufficient leadership kids can get burned out or hurt in ways that prevent them ever reaching their potential.

That is why GC and GWS are intent on recruiting some mature bodies, and it is something we lack. That is why those rationalisations for getting rid of JMac on the grounds of "putting more games into kids" are slightly misled.

If you want an example of someone who was thrown to the wolves never to achieve his percieved potential, think Josh Fraser.

I agree with all the above....but i don't think Junior's Hammy's were up for another season...and i think the MFC Footy Dept. was well aware of that. It is only my opinion but i think that is why the call was made when it was.

If Junior had not had that 6-7 week injury last year, i fully believe he would have played in 2011.

Once Hammy's go big time in older players they have a strong habit of returning often.

[Rogue 585]

'Humiliation':

139 Ess > GC

123 WCE > WB

119 Carl > GC

96 Melb > Adel

90 Melb > GC

88 Coll > Melb

87 Coll > North

78 WB > Bris

75 Coll > Port

71 Coll > Rich

71 WB > GC

Just some perspective.

I know a few people have asserted that we negatively compare to North and Richmond, so I was interested to see that they also got spanked by Collingwood.

PS. Have I missed any 70+ margins?

[Guest Artie Bucco]

The end can come very quickly for players. Who's to say McDonald would have kept up his form of 2010? Who's to say he wouldn't have had injury concerns equal or worse?

Were the WB helped by having Johnson running around last year?

Brad Johnson provided the club with a crystal ball for the Junior situation.

But honestly look on the bright side - if we hadn't have made Junior hang up his boots, we'd probably still have Cameron Bruce on the list.

A big positive in my book, in more ways than one.

I'd need to check which one it is, but that'd mean either we'd be without a kid like Tom McDonald or Troy Davis, who both look handy, or we'd have needed to delist another bloke just to make the 3 list changes, or even both.

And we wouldn't have been able to upgrade Newton for this season (joking!).

[Bobby McKenzie 2,209]

The end can come very quickly for players. Who's to say McDonald would have kept up his form of 2010? Who's to say he wouldn't have had injury concerns equal or worse?

Were the WB helped by having Johnson running around last year?

And the WB haven't been too flash this year WITHOUT Johnson have they?

[Rogue 585]

And the WB haven't been too flash this year WITHOUT Johnson have they?

Maybe they would have been much better hanging onto him for another year? Hah.

The fact they're struggling this year lends credence tot he fact they should have started making a transition to a younger group in 2010, rather than hanging onto Eagleton and Johnson (plus Aker?) a year too long.

(Obviously it's easy in hindsight though! I understand why they wanted to have another crack).

[Bobby McKenzie 2,209]

Maybe they would have been much better hanging onto him for another year? Hah.

They couldn't be doing any worse if they had played him for another year. He's hardly a grandfather you know. Ask Dustin Fletcher about age.