WELCOME TO THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB - JACK VINEY

[skills32 229]

It doesn't go to show anything.

This board, and everything posted on it, is a complete irrelevance in relation to the internal decisions and workings of the club. Which is as it should be.

Bing that post was just a puffing my chest out when it should have stayed sunken.

There have been a few coincidences when a poster has posted a suggestion and the MFC have moved in the same direction and it's usually within 2-3 weeks of the post.

Not suggesting that the board is the key to MFC success but there are enough lateral thinkers here to come up with something they have missed. Would not be the first time that an authority has taken up advice from lesser beings but then any instances I would quote would come from a movie.

[olisik 4,060]

I would go for Wines over Toumpas, main reason is his relationship with Viney.

Less chance of him leaving after 2 years...also I am sure they already have chemistry, something our mid field desperately needs.

[binman 44,518]

I want the dees to pick up Vlastuin - so i can give him the nickname Rasputin and then yell out "Go Russian, give it to Rasputin"

[dee-luded 2,959]

I want the dees to pick up Vlastuin - so i can give him the nickname Rasputin and then yell out "Go Russian, give it to Rasputin"

Geez that Avatar looks like Ol' Ray Biffen !

[Carrot Top 947]

I would go for Wines over Toumpas, main reason is his relationship with Viney.

Less chance of him leaving after 2 years...also I am sure they already have chemistry, something our mid field desperately needs.

If we can't keep players just because then we are screwed as a club. We should take the best available and worry about the 'go home' or any other factor come contract time.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Would it matter ? Wouldn't you rather judge a player on their multiple years of contributions at junior levels as opposed to one game ? As it is Viney was solid, if a bit rusty, and was named in the best. Even Geelong's skilled players are struggling to display their wares at a windswept stadium with a grandstand missing. Thankfully the next match is at Etihad.

I've seen enough to know that he's exactly what we need. His pace is better than I anticipated, in fact it's good; one of the best junior watches at BF rates him his third best talent in the draft behind only Whitfield and O'Meara, and a "CLEAR top 5 pick"; he played in a premiership team for Prince Alfred's first XV111 when he was in year 9, the first player to do it in 132 years; and last year he was awarded the medal for best on ground in the TAC grand final in a losing team.

But there will always be dolts on here that see the downside in anyone. It's a bit like the public polls where thousands cast a vote. There'll always be a few morons that would release Julian Knight, or Martin Bryant. It's just the way it is.

EDIT: he'd also play virtually the entire year as a 19 year old. Flower and Healy started at 17. Leigh Matthews won a B&F at 19 in a premiership year. I'm not suggesting that he'll be as good as the aforementioned, but I am suggesting that he'll be ready to impact from day one.

Ben, I'm not sure why that post was directed at me. I was replying to RP's ramping of JV prior to last Friday's game. As far as RP was concerned, he was going to get best on ground and show why he is worth every bit of a Pick 1-3. It was a tounge-in-cheek comment to RP. FWIW, I too believe that Viney would be a welcome addition to our side. Is he "exactly what we need"? If he is a quality player, my bloody oath he is what we need as we are lacking in that area at the moment.

In regards to the guy on BF that you follow; I don't read BF. I read Emma Quayle's articles regarding drafting, and she has Jack between 5-10. Personally, I rate Emma's articles over some average Joe on a footy forum. She also said that this wasn't the Super Draft that it was being hyped as. The top end was very, very good, but there wasn't the great depth that a lot believe.

Your comments about Martin Bryant and Julian Knight are inappropriate. Absolutely no need to use them in any comparison, especially on a football forum.

Edited July 3, 2012 by billy2803

[Hannibal 5,814]

So do you use pick 3 on a top 10 pick or do you use it on a top 3 pick?

You use pick 3 on a player you rate pick 3. Different clubs will obviously have different ratings, although at the pointy end they're usually pretty similar.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I would go for Wines over Toumpas, main reason is his relationship with Viney.

What sort of relationship does Toumpas have with Viney ? They both played for SA as juniors and both were in the AIS academy together. One came second in the Ben Mitchell medal and the other third, which is a medal for outstanding personal qualities and was won by Joe Daniher. I assume you have no idea about the relationship between Viney and Toumpas ?

Blease was best mates with Scully, but I'm not sure that's had much of an impact at our club.

How about we pick who we rank as the better player ? Or is that too simplistic ?

Edited July 3, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[Hannibal 5,814]

Ben, I'm not sure why that post was directed at me. I was replying to RP's ramping of JV prior to last Friday's game. Your comments about Martin Bryant and Julian Knight are inappropriate. Absolutely no need to use them in any comparison, especially on a football forum.

It was directed at you because in isolation I thought the comment to be simplistic. I wasn't aware of any posting trail.

And no the comments were fine and are offically endorsed by me.

[olisik 4,060]

What sort of relationship does Toumpas have with Viney ? They both played for SA as juniors and both were in the AIS acedemy together. One came second in the Ben Mitchell medal and the other third, which is a medal for outstanding personal qualities and was won by Joe Daniher. I assume you have no idea about the relationship between Viney and Toumpas ?

Blease was best mates with Scully, but I'm not sure that's had much of an impact at our club.

How about we pick who we rank as the better player ? Or is that too simplistic ?

Well for one Wines made a big mention of Viney in his article whilst Toumpas only mentioned Lachie, Daniher and Stringer.

[rpfc 28,899]

As far as RP was concerned, he was going to get best on ground and show why he is worth every bit of a Pick 1-3.

Was that 'as far as I was concerned' was it, Billy?

What I said was this - in reply to a ridiculous post by Billy2803 implying that we could hide his development:

How the hell do we hide him? He is about to rip up a Vic Metro game tomorrow that will make us all masticate over him.

He was in the bests but only played a solid game from all reports.

Probably a good sign that he still contributes while being 'down' and coming back from a broken jaw...

[Hannibal 5,814]

Well for one Wines made a big mention of Viney in his article whilst Toumpas only mentioned Lachie, Daniher and Stringer.

You know, I think you're right.

We should make our drafting decisions based on those heavily weighted facts.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[beelzebub 23,390]

Probably a good sign that he still contributes while being 'down' and coming back from a broken jaw...

salient point somehow missed by many

[Guest José Mourinho]

Who missed it?

[Guest José Mourinho]

So do you use pick 3 on a top 10 pick or do you use it on a top 3 pick?

Well, you measure JV on a draftpickometer, and if he comes out as a pick <5.5, you take him with pick 3.

If he weighs in as a pick 6 or higher, we have to let him go to the start-ups if they bid.

I mean, it's all a bit absurd, isn't it?

Who is to say there is a definitive top 3, 5 & 10, and there is a clear ranking between the players?

This system only exists in the minds of supporters, and I think the reality would surprise quite a few.

[Ouch! 2,269]

Beg to differ, both teams are screaming out for instant help to become competative. they can't wait 3 more years to start winning games.

GWS has many 'one year' senior players, who'll be gone this year.

They'll both go with the best players that are ready to go Rnd 1. Whitfield I don't think will impact games straight from the getgo.

Nor will Grundy... Both will need time to harden they're bodies etc.

Of the kids, the ready to go ones will be Toumpas, Vlastuin, Viney, & probably Wines, sound fairly hard.

To me, If I were in they're predicament, I would take Toumpas & Vlastuin/Wines 1st picks.

I agree that GWS and GC would love to get players who are ready made to go in their first year.... but clubs are lucky if they get that... and even so they have to be managed. GWS and GC would be expecting to see a greater output from the drafts of last year (and the year prior in GCs case)

Just on Grundy, I can't recall where I read it, but it was either his under 18 coach or a recruiter who commented that Grundy would be pretty close to being ready to play in his first year... which is interesting for a big man... If he is going top 2, then that rates this kid potentially alongside NikNat and Kreuzer for ability, and both kids played a bit of footy in the first year too.

I know it is off topic somewhat... but if the ratings on some of these players shuffled around and hypothetically we got Viney with our second round pick, is anyone ruling out the MFC making a play for Brodie Grundy. I don't think our ruck stocks run that deep, and Jamar is likely to be on his last contract...

[Ouch! 2,269]

Well, you measure JV on a draftpickometer, and if he comes out as a pick <5.5, you take him with pick 3.

If he weighs in as a pick 6 or higher, we have to let him go to the start-ups if they bid.

I mean, it's all a bit absurd, isn't it?

Who is to say there is a definitive top 3, 5 & 10, and there is a clear ranking between the players?

This system only exists in the minds of supporters, and I think the reality would surprise quite a few.

Every club who doesn't have a top 5 pick expresses delight and are astounded that they managed to snare the player that they got..

You would think that the Top 10 picks would be 'relatively' clear... perhaps a couple of dark horses, and a bit of shuffling amongst different teams, but top 5 is clearer.... top 3 is clearer still I think...

I don't think there has been too much doubt in the last 8-10 drafts of who the number 1 pick was. (Possibly Watts and Niknat due to one being WA based and one being Victorian) and then the drafts where Melb, GWS and GC had the first 2 or 3 picks anyway, and they don't have to chose.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I agree that GWS and GC would love to get players who are ready made to go in their first year.... but clubs are lucky if they get that... and even so they have to be managed. GWS and GC would be expecting to see a greater output from the drafts of last year (and the year prior in GCs case)

Just on Grundy, I can't recall where I read it, but it was either his under 18 coach or a recruiter who commented that Grundy would be pretty close to being ready to play in his first year... which is interesting for a big man... If he is going top 2, then that rates this kid potentially alongside NikNat and Kreuzer for ability, and both kids played a bit of footy in the first year too.

I know it is off topic somewhat... but if the ratings on some of these players shuffled around and hypothetically we got Viney with our second round pick, is anyone ruling out the MFC making a play for Brodie Grundy. I don't think our ruck stocks run that deep, and Jamar is likely to be on his last contract...

There's a big difference between ready to play, & Having an impact. I'd suggest Grundy won't impact games in his first 2 Years, Not Whitfield, as he's like s$cully, too lightly framed to do so. He'll IMO take 2 years + to Impact.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I agree that GWS and GC would love to get players who are ready made to go in their first year.... but clubs are lucky if they get that... and even so they have to be managed. GWS and GC would be expecting to see a greater output from the drafts of last year (and the year prior in GCs case)

Just on Grundy, I can't recall where I read it, but it was either his under 18 coach or a recruiter who commented that Grundy would be pretty close to being ready to play in his first year... which is interesting for a big man... If he is going top 2, then that rates this kid potentially alongside NikNat and Kreuzer for ability, and both kids played a bit of footy in the first year too.

I know it is off topic somewhat... but if the ratings on some of these players shuffled around and hypothetically we got Viney with our second round pick, is anyone ruling out the MFC making a play for Brodie Grundy. I don't think our ruck stocks run that deep, and Jamar is likely to be on his last contract...

I can see him sliding, down to Richmond, or further.

[BIG JIM 508]

I agree that GWS and GC would love to get players who are ready made to go in their first year.... but clubs are lucky if they get that... and even so they have to be managed. GWS and GC would be expecting to see a greater output from the drafts of last year (and the year prior in GCs case)

Just on Grundy, I can't recall where I read it, but it was either his under 18 coach or a recruiter who commented that Grundy would be pretty close to being ready to play in his first year... which is interesting for a big man... If he is going top 2, then that rates this kid potentially alongside NikNat and Kreuzer for ability, and both kids played a bit of footy in the first year too.

I know it is off topic somewhat... but if the ratings on some of these players shuffled around and hypothetically we got Viney with our second round pick, is anyone ruling out the MFC making a play for Brodie Grundy. I don't think our ruck stocks run that deep, and Jamar is likely to be on his last contract...

Yes i just cant see us wasting a top 5 pick on a ruck fullstop. We need mids and more mids i feel you can find ruck in the VFL or later in the draft.

We might use our 2nd rnd on a small forward as i feel this is something we need now but our rucks are stronger then alot of other clubs so we will not go for a ruck this year.

I think we could well go for a stringer as we seem to still need that Hurley type up and around the forward 50 and this kid can go through the middle also.

My thinking is that we will go for toumpas and stringer but if one of these boys are gone it will be wines.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I read Emma Quayle's articles regarding drafting, and she has Jack between 5-10. Personally, I rate Emma's articles over some average Joe on a footy forum.

I'm just giving an example of another junior footy watchers view. You should take it with a grain of salt.

Emma is a fine journalist and avid draft watcher, but I wouldn't be basing your views on her talent rankings. In 2007 she ranked Tom McNamara at 23 (delisted), she had Callan Ward at 21 (gun), Tony Notte at 19 (delisted), Cale Morton at 3 and Jarrad Grant at 5. In 2008 she had Watts at 1, Yarran at 2, and both are looking way off. She also had Vickery at 5 and Tom Swift at 7. Between 10 and 14 she had Sidebottom, Hurley, Ziebell, and Hill. I suspect they'd all be ranked higher now. She had Casey Sibasado in her top 25.

Btw, they weren't her phantom draft predictions, they were her ratings based on talent. My point being ? Don't get too rapt up in what order she has the top 10, or whether she rates Viney 5-10, as in all likelihood it won't have any relevance to reality 5 years down the track.

Somehow though I don't think it will stop you.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[beelzebub 23,390]

Ok here is some very simple logic.

Jack Viney is by nearly all accounts top 10. By many observers top 5. Some have him in the mix of best 3.

We. The MFC have in reality one first round selection we can use.

We, despite all rhetoric,smoke,mirrors or bluff have an agreement of understanding to select Jack if hes the best pick at that point. It will be very hard to mount an objective and fair ( to all parties )rationale that he wont be.

Therefore unless we are dead lucky and neither GC nor GWs decide to either counterbluff or actually desire Jack with a bid then we are simply going to have to take him with 3. So be it.

Edit.

Btw did i mention we desperately need a class inside /outside mid with elite skills and sound decision maling that can not only get his own ball but provide a good link. That and hes almost scarily fearless and has shown (already) he can play with MEN !! He has shown he HAS it. Its not a gamble.

So about those other suggestions for using pick 3.......

Edited July 4, 2012 by belzebub59

[Guest José Mourinho]

Every club who doesn't have a top 5 pick expresses delight and are astounded that they managed to snare the player that they got..

You would think that the Top 10 picks would be 'relatively' clear... perhaps a couple of dark horses, and a bit of shuffling amongst different teams, but top 5 is clearer.... top 3 is clearer still I think...

I don't think there has been too much doubt in the last 8-10 drafts of who the number 1 pick was. (Possibly Watts and Niknat due to one being WA based and one being Victorian) and then the drafts where Melb, GWS and GC had the first 2 or 3 picks anyway, and they don't have to chose.

Yes, but even when there's a consensus at draft time, it doesn't always turn out like that.

I'd take Pendlebury before Murphy if I had a crystal ball.

Judd before Ball & Hodge, etc, etc.

The club could easily see things in Viney that other clubs don't, since they don't get the same exposure to him.

And it goes for all players.

[Guest José Mourinho]

I'm just giving an example of another junior footy watchers view. You should take it with a grain of salt.

Emma is a fine journalist and avid draft watcher, but I wouldn't be basing your views on her talent rankings. In 2007 she ranked Tom McNamara at 23 (delisted), she had Callan Ward at 21 (gun), Tony Notte at 19 (delisted), Cale Morton at 3 and Jarrad Grant at 5. In 2008 she had Watts at 1, Yarran at 2, and both are looking way off. She also had Vickery at 5 and Tom Swift at 7. Between 10 and 14 she had Sidebottom, Hurley, Ziebell, and Hill. I suspect they'd all be ranked higher now. She had Casey Sibasado in her top 25.

Btw, they weren't her phantom draft predictions, they were her ratings based on talent. My point being ? Don't get too rapt up in what order she has the top 10, or whether she rates Viney 5-10, as in all likelihood it won't have any relevance to reality 5 years down the track.

Somehow though I don't think it will stop you.

I also think EQ's real talent is in finding out which clubs are interested in which players, not necessarily being able to evaluate their talent more accurately than anyone else.

[Face Your Demons 175]

Its time to forget what number they are and pick what we need.