The Problem with our forward line...

[JCash 0]

Josh Mahoney...

There it is folks no need to question or argue he really was a dud of a footballer with no forward sense, and now we expect him to mold these young kids into something special?

They may well become elite but that will be through natural progression, Mahoney will stay around at years end I suspect because of the Port Adelaide connection however I have my doubts if it will be in the current role he fills (god I hope not) to blame the players for the forward line being non existent is short sighted they can only do what they are instructed to do, lets not forget they are footballers not rocket scientists, they run where they are told to if the coach says jump they say how high?

Mahoneys resume is far from impressive let alone one that should get you a gig as a forward line coach, now I'll be honest and don't know what other options are out there waving their hand say pick me but I am sure there is better options.

A forward coach needs to be able to instruct his players to play in front,be strong in contests,punch if behind,forward pressure,front and center at crumbing opportunities,run to space etc etc.. all of these skills Josh did not have during his playing days nor does he have it now. They saw those who cannot do teach, well in this example it is true however not when you have nothing to teach.

Sorry Josh you seem like a great bloke in meetings I've had with you, however we want the ultimate prize and I believe you will/should not be part of it.. PROVE ME WRONG

[satyricon 267]

Sorry champ it was just unavoidable. Your writing is incomprehensible throughout, much like your shoddy reasoning.

There are some good English as a second language courses offered by various TAFE colleges in the city. Look them up on Google. Type "ESL Courses". Good luck!

.

So are you going to take your command of English and explain why the reasoning is shoddy, or are you just leaving it at a personal insult, a fine contribution to a thread.

My bit for what it's worth (bad grammar included) is that the forward line has not been settled since Rd 1, my memory isn't the best but the six positions have been occupied at one time or another by Newton, Hughes, Bate, Green, Bennell, Bail, Miller, Watts, Petterd, Wonna, Johnson, Sylvia, Davey, Jetta, Scully(last Saturday)........so Josh Mahoney has had to work with a variety of skills and ability........plus varying levels of experience in a particular position and it has been different nearly every week.......can a poster say they could do a better job.

[DJS 0]

.

So are you going to take your command of English and explain why the reasoning is shoddy, or are you just leaving it at a personal insult, a fine contribution to a thread.

My bit for what it's worth (bad grammar included) is that the forward line has not been settled since Rd 1, my memory isn't the best but the six positions have been occupied at one time or another by Newton, Hughes, Bate, Green, Bennell, Bail, Miller, Watts, Petterd, Wonna, Johnson, Sylvia, Davey, Jetta, Scully(last Saturday)........so Josh Mahoney has had to work with a variety of skills and ability........plus varying levels of experience in a particular position and it has been different nearly every week.......can a poster say they could do a better job.

Everyone except Dunn it would appear,which is strange.

It took about 5 years to get Green back Forward on a more regular basis, but it seems to work;perhaps the coaching staff should ask for advice from outside occasionally

[ox_5 163]

To try to get this back on track...

I ask you what do you know about Josh Mahoney and how he is rated within the inner sanctum?? Thats the starting point, because if you dont know anything then your claim is baseless.

Second, since when is a high flying playing career the prerequisite for being a good coach/teacher of young men?

Bails wasnt the greatest footballer, yet he is the coach. Why are you not questioning his position?

Kevin Sheedy wasnt the greatest player of all time, yet in his time was seen as the greatest coach. Why?

Tim Watson was a fantastic footballer, yet from the OUTSIDE it looks like my grandma could have coached better. Why?

The cattle that Josh has to work with as already pointed out is changing each week. It has never once been settled. The players need to learn to play with eachother, where eachother run etc and this only comes with time.

To be honest, if we had Bomber Thompson as our forward coach with the cattle down there at the moment, the inexperienced, skinny young kids we have down there, I doubt he would be getting much of a better result.

It doesnt help Mahoneys cause when in my opinion our two best forwards are out, being Jurrah and Petterd. Wait til he has his full cattle, and a settled forward line before he is judged completely.

When you say playing in front and being strong in a contest, it would seem that is aimed at Watts. He played played a handful of games, with a teenagers body playing against seasoned developed defenders. Both of these things come with size, with experience and with confidence.

Edited June 8, 2010 by ox_5_demons

[JCash 0]

Everyone except Dunn it would appear,which is strange.

It took about 5 years to get Green back Forward on a more regular basis, but it seems to work;perhaps the coaching staff should ask for advice from outside occasionally

I believe Dunn should be back where he started his career he has the size, strength and footy smarts to play deep now Barts and Junior are our preferred taggers Jarrah back there would be nice and Watts.. well see me in 12 months Green Jetta Wonna Benny Bate ATM will suffice but a forward coach is needed for all of them

[JCash 0]

To try to get this back on track...

I ask you what do you know about Josh Mahoney and how he is rated within the inner sanctum?? Thats the starting point, because if you dont know anything then your claim is baseless.

Second, since when is a high flying playing career the prerequisite for being a good coach/teacher of young men?

Bails wasnt the greatest footballer, yet he is the coach. Why are you not questioning his position?

Kevin Sheedy wasnt the greatest player of all time, yet in his time was seen as the greatest coach. Why?

Tim Watson was a fantastic footballer, yet from the OUTSIDE it looks like my grandma could have coached better. Why?

The cattle that Josh has to work with as already pointed out is changing each week. It has never once been settled. The players need to learn to play with eachother, where eachother run etc and this only comes with time.

To be honest, if we had Bomber Thompson as our forward coach with the cattle down there at the moment, the inexperienced, skinny young kids we have down there, I doubt he would be getting much of a better result.

It doesnt help Mahoneys cause when in my opinion our two best forwards are out, being Jurrah and Petterd. Wait til he has his full cattle, and a settled forward line before he is judged completely.

When you say playing in front and being strong in a contest, it would seem that is aimed at Watts. He played played a handful of games, with a teenagers body playing against seasoned developed defenders. Both of these things come with size, with experience and with confidence.

I'm stiil wondering on Bailey to be honest however I believe I can see something there, I understand Josh has had a mixed bag to work with since round 1 however I don't believe the line has functioned as well as it could have, and in due part like it or not the blame will go back up the ladder to the man calling the shots. By no means am I having a shot at Watts he is still a baby trying on mens clothes I am happy to show patience with a young man of his ilk. I don't know much of this inner sanctum of which we all talk about, but I do know results and whats in front of me ain't pretty atm the cattle is there in different guises it's how you round the cattle up and make them do what you want counts alot in this game.

[loges 6,767]

The problem with our forward line is that we have no key forwards

[Inner Demon 1]

Judging a coach's ability based upon your own opinions of them as a player is nonsense.

Alistair Clarkson was a battler as a player, but he's a premiership coach who played a very large role in revolutionising the way the modern game is played.

Brendan McCartney played about 90 games of local footy before going on to build Geelong's premiership winning defence as the defensive coach.

Conversely, just because someone was a superstar player means absolutely nothing in terms of their ability of a coach. See examples: Watson, Tim, Shaw, Tony, Frawley, Danny.

It's clear as day that our forward line is going to be the last part of our list to develop, largely because tall forwards take the longest to hit their stride. Mahoney is a very smart guy with an astute football brain who has experience being a part of a premiership side.

What I believe we do need, is a specialist tall forward coach to work with Jurrah, Watts, Fitzpatrick, etc much in the same way as clubs use specialist ruck coaches because they fill a hole in the knowledge of a midfield coach in how to play as a ruckman.

[ox_5 163]

What I believe we do need, is a specialist tall forward coach to work with Jurrah, Watts, Fitzpatrick, etc much in the same way as clubs use specialist ruck coaches because they fill a hole in the knowledge of a midfield coach in how to play as a ruckman.

I have been thinking that aswell. Maybe we could convince my man the Ox to come down 1 or 2 sessions a week. Even Neiter.

[old dee 23,791]

The problem with our forward line is that we have no key forwards

Spot on "Loges"

That about says it all.

[sylvinator 96]

Horrendous opening post.

4 reasons why:

1. You are basically making the argument that only outstanding players can be outstanding coaches. That because Mahoney wasn't a superstar (though he did win a premiership and was a very good player) he isn't a good coach. That line is argument is totally flawed. Plenty of great sport coaches/managers around the world (not limiting it to AFL) have been the very best, most astute coaches, despite not being superstar players themselves.

I would also point out that our senior coach, Dean Bailey, played barely 50 AFL games, less than Mahoney, and was less of a player than Mahoney is. So what DO Mahoney and Bailey offer you ask? During their playing days they were both extremely professional players, who worked harder than every body else to get the most out of the limited amount of talent. This is an important quality for any player to emulate. They are also both supposed to be brilliantly astute tacticians who understand the game of AFL up there with any other AFL coach.

2. Secondly, I don't think you, or any other person on this site knows the work that Mahoney puts into making our forward line function. We only see the results on game day. So basically you are saying that because we aren't kicking huge scores each week, that is Mahoney's fault (because the forward line is his responsibility). However that is a very simplistic and, once again, flawed argument. The overall team score cannot be placed solely on the forward line. Goals are a product of delivery into the forward line and the amount of inside 50s as well. I would argue that over the past 3 seasons, the delivery into the forward line has been horrendous and our inside 50 count would be the lowest in the league. I would argue that were MFC forwards had a Geelong-esk midfield, our scores would increase dramatically.

3. You fail to mention the fact that in terms of developed talent/personelle, our forward line is, at the moment, our huge weak point. That is due to poor drafting from 2002-2005 (Miller, Molan, Nick Smith all failed KPF's drafted) and the over reliance from 2006-2008 on recently retired players like Neitz and Robertson. Would you agree that this is not Josh Mahoney's fault.

For that reasons, the forwards on our list include Watts (6 games, drafted 2008), Bennell (15 games drafted 2008), Jurrah (9 games drafted 2008), Fitzpatrick (0 games, drafted 2009). Yes, we have Pettard, Bate and Green who are good forwards. However, due to the reasons in the above paragraph, we have been forced to play spuds/poor players like Miller, Newton, Hughes, Dunn and Martin in the key forward positions. I mean honestly, how many teams would kick huge scores with so many poor players having to play in key positions? The predicament has not been helped by LTI to Pettard and Jurrah, who would both make our forward line much more potent.

As Cam Shwab mentioned in another thread, our hope is to look forward 2 years and imagine our forwards fully developed.

I am excited by a future forward line of Watts, Jurrah, Pettard, Bate, Green, Bennell and Sylvia. If you are not, then you must have a pretty [censored] poor imagination.

4. Your English is terrible. Barely readable

[satyricon 267]

.

So are you going to take your command of English and explain why the reasoning is shoddy, or are you just leaving it at a personal insult, a fine contribution to a thread.

My bit for what it's worth (bad grammar included) is that the forward line has not been settled since Rd 1, my memory isn't the best but the six positions have been occupied at one time or another by Newton, Hughes, Bate, Green, Bennell, Bail, Miller, Watts, Petterd, Wonna, Johnson, Sylvia, Davey, Jetta, Scully(last Saturday)........so Josh Mahoney has had to work with a variety of skills and ability........plus varying levels of experience in a particular position and it has been different nearly every week.......can a poster say they could do a better job.

I forgot Dunn and Martin, so a rough count of 17 players in 11 games, how is that for consistency......please can we have a bit of patience, yes I would like to see a flowing move from the back half resulting in a wonderful pack mark to Watts who then goals......but I will I may just have to wait a bit

Edited June 8, 2010 by satyricon

[old dee 23,791]

I'm still wondering on Bailey to be honest however I believe I can see something there, I understand Josh has had a mixed bag to work with since round 1 however I don't believe the line has functioned as well as it could have, and in due part like it or not the blame will go back up the ladder to the man calling the shots. By no means am I having a shot at Watts he is still a baby trying on mens clothes I am happy to show patience with a young man of his ilk. I don't know much of this inner sanctum of which we all talk about, but I do know results and whats in front of me ain't pretty atm the cattle is there in different guises it's how you round the cattle up and make them do what you want counts alot in this game.

I wonder about Bailey however he has had precious little to work with up till now.

We now have a good back line, a developing mid field and one decent ruckman and a number of kids who look the goods but we will not know with some of them for another year or two.

Unfortunately the forward line is very ordinary this year and will only be marginly better next year.

2011 will tell us if Bailey is any good, IMO we will have a side next year that should be knocking on the door of finals football.

If we finish lower than 9th I will consider 2011 a failure.

[old dee 23,791]

I forgot Dunn and Martin, so a rough count of 17 players in 11 games, how is that for consistency......please can we have a bit of patience, yes I would like to see a flowing move from the back half resulting in a wonderful pack mark to Watts who then goals......but I will I may just have to wait a bit

If all the so called experts are correct forget about that until 2012 /2013.

[JCash 0]

Where? where did I ever stat a gun player would make a gun coach? A forward line is not about kicking massive points every week its about being functional and not running around lost at a coaches direction but real football supporters would understand this, unfortunately the majority of posters in here don't seem to really understand football I have no doubt of your love for the club but you are most likely part of the special people who scream KICK IT LONG even if there is no option.

And look thats cool whatever floats your boat but through my readings of the past 5 years on this site there are very few people who actually understand football maybe 30 or so, I know my spelling and grammar is terrible however I play football and understand it better then most 20 years of it will do that to you, I appreciate all your uni degrees telling me my writing is awful but I'm here to talk about footy not do a English exam, if I could put a covenant on people replying to my post I would however I will sift through the [censored] posted and take what I need from the people who truly understand this great game we all love.

Oh and b4 you all get sooky I know we all love the Melbourne Football Club.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Where? where did I ever stat a gun player would make a gun coach? A forward line is not about kicking massive points every week its about being functional and not running around lost at a coaches direction but real football supporters would understand this, unfortunately the majority of posters in here don't seem to really understand football I have no doubt of your love for the club but you are most likely part of the special people who scream KICK IT LONG even if there is no option.

And look thats cool whatever floats your boat but through my readings of the past 5 years on this site there are very few people who actually understand football maybe 30 or so, I know my spelling and grammar is terrible however I play football and understand it better then most 20 years of it will do that to you, I appreciate all your uni degrees telling me my writing is awful but I'm here to talk about footy not do a English exam, if I could put a covenant on people replying to my post I would however I will sift through the [censored] posted and take what I need from the people who truly understand this great game we all love.

Oh and b4 you all get sooky I know we all love the Melbourne Football Club.

Well said JCash. It amazes me how many people have criticised you over your english use, ie. Sylvinator - we have PettErd playing for us, not PettArd.

In regards to your opening post, I think the biggest issue is the consistency of players in certain positions. I would love to see stability in our forward line, and I can imagine that Josh Mahoney would love to see it too! Look at our backline - they have had a couple of seasons playing alongside each other now, and are a tight unit. Bailey was in a position to be able to sacrifice wins and opponents kicking big scores against us, with the benefit of these guys understanding each other and developing as a "department". Unfortunately, our forward line didn't ave that luxury over the past 2 years due to lack of personnel (ie Jack Watts, playing with Liam Jurrah, playing with Brad Green, playing with Aussie, etc). This year, and next year for that matter, is the time where we should be developing our forward line "department" (just as we did over the past 2-3 years with our defence), sadly, we need to kick goals to win, therefore if we aren;t in the first quarter or two, we have to make changes. For Bailey, if he doesn't make these changes it looks as though he hasn't got a plan B = people calling for his departure.

For the argument though, has our forward line really been that bad? We were never going to match Geelong, it pi$$ed down with rain against Carlton making scoring hard (ok, they kicked a reasonable score, but they are the Melbourne Demons of 2012), Port Adelaide in Darwin saw us kick a reasonable score, the game against West Coast was a disaster, the Bulldogs game was flood-like conditions, and so on. While I have been frustrated with the past couple of weeks (ie. no forward line structure), perhaps it isn't as bad as we think it is.

[H_T 3,047]

What I believe we do need, is a specialist tall forward coach to work with Jurrah, Watts, Fitzpatrick, etc much in the same way as clubs use specialist ruck coaches because they fill a hole in the knowledge of a midfield coach in how to play as a ruckman.

Good suggestion. Perhaps someone on a consultative basis, rather than someone in a full time position, unless of course the club can increase its spending in the FD.

JCash, have you had the same view on Mahoney all season to date (ie. even when Petterd was in & playing well), or has it become apparent to you over the last 2-3 weeks ?

[Dr. Mubutu 852]

A forward coach needs to be able to instruct his players to play in front,be strong in contests,punch if behind,forward pressure,front and center at crumbing opportunities,run to space etc etc.. all of these skills Josh did not have during his playing days nor does he have it now. They saw those who cannot do teach, well in this example it is true however not when you have nothing to teach.

And who's to say he's not doing that?

Unless you're a forward with the MFC, you'd have no idea what he's instructing them to do behind closed doors.

With the players currently in our forward line, I think any coach would be on a hiding to nothing in that position.

[JCash 0]

Good suggestion. Perhaps someone on a consultative basis, rather than someone in a full time position, unless of course the club can increase its spending in the FD.

JCash, have you had the same view on Mahoney all season to date (ie. even when Petterd was in & playing well), or has it become apparent to you over the last 2-3 weeks ?

I actually have had this position since b4 the season even started, and it was actually brought to my attention by my father as I was too excited about the season proper to think about it, this is why I have held off to midseason to say anything but have being watching closely since round one as I thought our forward line would be our Achilles heal.

I agree with a consultative basis coach but who I wouldn't know where to start club legend would be a good place to start one would believe.

[Harrisonrules 273]

I am conscious that to raise the question of the coaching panel is to venture into what many regard as a no go zone. I have watched Cameron Schwab's whiteboard Wednesday's with interest and believe we have a quality person in his position. Along with Chris C and Jimmy we are as well lead as we have been for some time. Nevertheless I go back to some of Cameron's early presentations and one area of the club which he had not included in his scheme as needing to be accountable was the coaching. No doubt there is some mechanism for coaching evaluation, but the fact it was not identified in the clubs declared plan raises the alarm bells in my mind. I don't believe it is truely accepted seriously enough as needing to be accountable, yet it is one of the most vital areas that determine performance.

Dean impressed the selection panel by presenting himself as a Developmental coach. Development is one portfolio of the coaching role. Could you see Malthouse, Sheedy, Voss, Thompson, Eade, Roos presenting themselves as such. Are they any less developmental coaches than Dean. Certainly not, they are developing players all the time. But they see themselves as senior club coaches and embrace every area of that task. To me this suggests that Dean really sees himself as a DEVELOPING coach. A friend raised this with Dean in a social setting and he suggested he talks about his coaching with the other coaches and his wife (I'm sure it was a friendly comment and I don't begrudge him talking to his wife about the football and his challenges, I would myself). I have had some concern about our coaching panel. My probably less than informed observation is that each coach on the panel is relatively inexperienced. My cynical observation is that this is to Deans advantage because I can again understand he would not want his assistants to be significantly more experienced than himself. At least Williams had the courage and confidence to take on Laidley. I believe the supporter base is still confused about Dean's ability. Selections, slow starts, little experimentations, at one stage no game plan now perhaps one, are the types of constant discussion points in the bar or lunch room. It is difficult to find any particular point that one can clearly say, "gee I really like what Dean is doing in that area".

Am I bagging DEan. No. I believe Dean is inexperienced in terms of successful coaches. It would be professional for the club to have a senior advisor to review and challenge him and his team. I believe Cameron Schwab should have this clearly schematized in his plan. When I see it there I will know the club is serious about developing the whole club. Dean is no where near a Premiership coach nor are his panel. He will not drift toward it. The atmosphere around the club wants to know that this stone will not be left unturned. OUR DEVELOPMENTAL COACH IS MERELY A DEVELOPING COACH. IT WOULD BE PROFESSIONAL FOR HIM TO HAVE A COACHING MENTOR AND BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE CLUB ADMINITRATION FOR IT.

JCash, well done for daring to ask the question.

I suggest you look at the above thread I have presented under DEVELOPMENTAL COACH.

[rpfc 28,422]

My god, Melbourne supporters are a bunch of self-righteous, self-indulgent pikers.

If you meet with him, tell him your concerns.

Mahoney is a genius after the Brisbane game and a dud after the Carlton game.

Honestly, if I wasn't one - I'd hate Melbourne supporters.

[GOLF 13]

The problems with our forward line are:

Watts is very young and very tall. Talls always take more time to develop. By 2012 he will be good, in time for our 2013 flag.

Jurrah is injured.

Petterd is injured.

FitzPatrick is young, even taller than Watts, and a beanpole. Again, watch him in 2012.

Miller is a spud who has played less than 13 really good games out of 130.

Bate and Green aren't key forwards. Can help, but not dominate.

Try coaching that lot at the moment.

[stuie 7,374]

Just thought I'd chuck this in here from the thread "Full Forward"...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Just floating the thought that we're struggling at delivering the ball to about 20-40 metres out, and wondering if it's not worth throwing Watts, or even McNamara into the square where we wouldn't have to try and be so precise and could have a big unit to catch the ball? (Old school, I know)

I like Green, Sylvia, Dunn, Bate, and even occasionally Moloney from 40-50, but we're struggling to hit targets at that mid distance between there and the square. We have some big fellas in Watts, McNamara, Martin, Morton, and even Green plays above his size down there, could they be used well there?

Watts could get some much needed confidence from a few shots at close range.

Rivers could even play around half forward to utilise his marking, as he's mostly struggling down back with the modern style of short possession game.

Thoughts?

[jayceebee31 761]

I have been thinking that aswell. Maybe we could convince my man the Ox to come down 1 or 2 sessions a week. Even Neiter.

I think that is a great idea- I posted this earlier in the year as well as a kicking coach. Mahoney must go- had his time- need another.Might suggest we get Carey to come down occassionally as well.

Edited June 8, 2010 by jayceebee31

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

I shall not pass judgement on Josh Mahoney until jurrah & Watts & Wonna & Jetta & Bennell all get around 50 games into themselves.

The job is only 20-30% done.

Maybe you should ask our President his opinion of Josh Mahoney?

Why would Jimma hire a dud coach when it was his wish to save the club??