Small, quick, tough & smart back pocket?

[Guest DeesPower]

I was at the Carlton Vs StKilda game and noticed the quick and damaging small aboriginal Blues forward line. I was wondering who we could play as a small, skilled yet hard-at-it small backman. Loosing Whelan (a gun) has left a big hole in the backline.

Back pocket options;

Bartram is quick and tough, but his decision making probably cost us the game against the Dogs (probably should be dropped)

Bennell is better as a wingman/forward (too loose as a backman, may be used if needed)

Aaron Davey is better as a wingman/forward

Grimes is a fantastic HBF, may be too big for the small aboriginals.

Cheney, Joel Mac, are too slow for the mosquito fleet

potential choices

Jordie McKenzie - he is tough as nails, a great tackler, fairly quick and good decision maker. Could be a version of Akermanis who started in the BP.

Neville Jetta - He is tough, quick, tackles like a demon and may be worth a look

Strauss - He is being groomed as a backman, I am unsure about his speed and toughness, but has beautiful skills for a backman.

Rohan Bail - He is quick and agile, hard-at-it, good skills, good on the ground and in the air, is worth a look.

Sam Blease - I have not seen him play, however somebody posted a comment that he plays like David King. (if he is anything like King, we have a gun)

We must develop tough, skilled, smart back pocket players just like we had with Yeates and Whelan, Ward, Brown and Walsh. Without them, Carlton will carve us up.

If you read the Casey report on the Melb players it states my view on Strauss up until now: great skills, terrific kick, but too loose for a first class backman. That's certainly my observation watching him play at Casey. He would be eaten up by the Carlton mosquito fleet.

I'd play Bartram, Bruce and maybe someone like McKenzie or Dunn on them. I think though we have the attacking firepower to outgun them. I'd hate to think we would sacrifice our attacking game to try and stop their mosquito fleet. Our midfield is now sufficiently skilled, and defence sufficiently ruthless to beat them anyway. Carlton are front runners, and not very good ones at that. Let's beat them with our own game.

Edited May 12, 2010 by DeesPower

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,799]

I have no doubt that Bartram contributed in Melbourne's loss on Friday night. Ok, he made the error of handballing it to the Melbourne player impersonator, but in the last minutes when the ball was about 25m from the Dogs goal, he had a chance to clear it out. What he did was paddle the ball forward-ish, sadly Griffen got the ball and kicked the winning goal.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I felt that Bartram was pushed in the back, just as he was about to shuffle the ball toward the boundary line. If he'd booted the ball along the ground over the line, he'd have been penalised for sure.(even though it was 30m away). Those umps were looking for any excuse to help Footscray over the line.

[burn in hell 0]

Neville Jetta is the perfect candidate to mould into a Matty Whelan type IMO. The FD should also consider having Addam Maric spend some time in the back half for Casey to strengthen his defensive game and make him realise that the hardest and most important work happens backward of centre.

Neither of these 2 look close to getting a game as a small forward at the moment with Bennell doing a fine job and Wona seemingly close to a senior recall.

BTW - Bartram has been tremendous this year. If a player could be voted most improved after a decline, he'd be it. Currently in career best form. Remember he was really good in his rookie year of 2006 before being cruelled by injury just before the finals.

mate, I reckon he could be the one, Jetta or McKenzie. Hard as [censored], smart aswell.

[Keyser Söze 0]

mate, I reckon he could be the one, Jetta or McKenzie. Hard as [censored], smart aswell.

I wouldn't want to take McKenzie out of the midfield.

Jetta could be the answer but I'm not sure about his pace either.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yes there is a BUT! But I can't see him being part of our long term plans. As hard and as tough and dedicated as he is to the role he plays in the team he will let us down at crucial times during a game. He will always give 100% - no question. But in those crucial tight moments of a pressurised last quarter his skill errors create turnovers and have cost us two games this year. Let's not forget the errant handball against Collingwood. Of course there is a 100+ minutes in a game and it may seem unfair to focus on those two errors in the context of all other mistakes that are made in a game. Maybe so but the fact remains that throughout his career Bartram has consistently made crucial mistakes that wind up hurting us.

So what if you dont see him as part of our LT plans! Currently he is the best option of the small forward and has played that role really really well this year. Generally his decision making and disposal have been very good. At the moment we have no better option there.

The only smart statement you have made is "Of course there is a 100+ minutes in a game and it may seem unfair to focus on those two errors in the context of all other mistakes that are made in a game." Its a pity you did not take note of it.

Any chance we lost the Collingwood game when we allowed them to kick 4 goals to 1 goal in the 2nd quarter? Or we allowed the Dogs 3 goals in the first quarter when we had no kicked one?

Some of the "he cost us the game" accusations when the result was tight is some of the most naive and self serving drivel on this site

[Rogue 585]

So what if you dont see him as part of our LT plans! Currently he is the best option of the small forward and has played that role really really well this year. Generally his decision making and disposal have been very good. At the moment we have no better option there.

The fact that he doesn't see Bartram as part of our long-term plans is pretty relevant in the context of long-term plans, which was what the poster was talking about!

As I say his form warrants he gets picked each week - for now. But as we start to creep into finals and then premiership contention Bartram won't be part of our plans because players like Clint that lack skill will continually hurt you at crucial times

I think he makes a decent point, and it relates directly to the OP's assertion that we need to develop a quick, small, tough and smart back pocket type.

[Guest Thomo]

BTW - Bartram has been tremendous this year. If a player could be voted most improved after a decline, he'd be it. Currently in career best form. Remember he was really good in his rookie year of 2006 before being cruelled by injury just before the finals.

I agree. Bartram has been given a job to do each week, and has done it well. Wouldn't be getting many Brownlow votes, but I bet he is up there in the B&F. Best 22 at the moment.

[burn in hell 0]

Bartram is a goer, but needs more composure. Composure leads to footy smarts.

Rivers is a good example of a backman with footy smarts.

Brett Lovett was the smartest backman I have seen, he was slow but he rarely got caught. His composure was incredible.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The fact that he doesn't see Bartram as part of our long-term plans is pretty relevant in the context of long-term plans, which was what the poster was talking about!

If Bartram plays the way he has recently I cant see why he cant be. He is only 22.

[jayceebee31 761]

I believe Bail is the go for our developing back pocket if Cheney is deemed to slow.As it is Cheney gets my nod.

[Dr. Mubutu 855]

Really? This is the line we're worried about against Carlton? I'd be more worried about Judd/Murphy/Gibbs/Carazzo, personally. Our backline (without Joel McDonald) is deceptively quick, for the height they are. Magnificent closing speed.

But to answer the question posed, Bartram, Strauss (more medium-sized, though), possibly Jetta/Bennell to rotate through.

[Keyser Söze 0]

Really? This is the line we're worried about against Carlton? I'd be more worried about Judd/Murphy/Gibbs/Carazzo, personally. Our backline (without Joel McDonald) is deceptively quick, for the height they are. Magnificent closing speed.

But to answer the question posed, Bartram, Strauss (more medium-sized, though), possibly Jetta/Bennell to rotate through.

I believe Carlton was merely an example used to highlight our lack of a Jarrod Harbrow-type.

[burn in hell 0]

I believe Carlton was merely an example used to highlight our lack of a Jarrod Harbrow-type.

exactly

[Dr. Mubutu 855]

I believe Carlton was merely an example used to highlight our lack of a Jarrod Harbrow-type.

Point taken, apologies for the detour.

[Keyser Söze 0]

exactly

Having said that, what small speedy defenders are on other lists that would get a game on ours?

Harbrow is one I can think of - not many others.

I think Garland is good/fast enough to cover the dangerous ones.

[Swampfox 190]

Small , Quick , Tough and Smart

Why does he has to be small ?

Bartram is doing quite well to retain the position although i will admit to being one of those who believed he was in the NQR category

Its great to see players taking the next step up irrespective of how small the step is and he is young enough to keep improving and be valuable

The back pocket position is just part of the Defence and our Defence is coming along quite nicely

Frawley , Warnock , Garland , McDonald , Grimes , Bruce and Bartram have all contributed well this season

We got Joel MacDonald from Brisbane as a experienced defender who i believe can hold down a flank although i thought he was unlucky to be dropped

for one bad game

Dont forget we also have Stefan Martin and he isnt slow

We wont have Cameron Bruce and James McDonald forever and doubt they will be part of any success we are hoping to have in a few years

we are already developing other defensive options in the VFL with players like Bell , McNamara , Strauss and Healy

Players such as Jetta and Bennell or even Bail i am not sure about from a defensive perpective

The biggest handicap in development has been the dreaded injuries that seem to be affecting all clubs not just melbourne

Have high hopes on Strauss but sure would like to see the others step up as well but as we all knmow not everyone makes it

Going forward its imperative that teams build a decent defence and the best defensive teams seem to have only small personal changes

over long periods of time

IMO we are in the early stages of that goal

[DeeSpencer 25,721]

I think Strauss and Bennell will get more time on half back flanks and back pockets as the time comes. If they don't and we remain with Bartram its not the worst thing. In a good side Bartram is probably decent enough to win a flag (is he really much worse than Steven Baker for StKilda).

There is nothing slow about Grimes either, he went practically step for step with Rioli last year.

We might need to draft another quick small defender specialist because I'm not keen on Cheney (think he lacks the speed for AFL and the size to play on taller players) and if McNamara is going to make it is off a half back flank.

Warnock, Frawley, Garland, Bartram and Grimes are the 5 guys who are comfortable as deep defenders at this stage.

[Yokozuna 1,004]

I have stated who I think shold play on who, but in all honesty, if our midfield pressure is on, well I think our defenders will be fine.

It does not matter how good, fast, skillful your forward line is if the ball never gets there or comes in under real pressure!

Back to Bartram too, has played well, played his role, but will not be in our team in a couple of years with all the players we have coming up.

Also for those wanting Jetta to play on a fast forward, they are kidding themselves. He goes hard and I like him, but he is way too slow for the Carlton forwards.

And McKenze is too valuable in the midfield, we dont need to move him.

Stick with the defenders we have, dont change to cater for the opposition, win the ball the way we are set up now, and our defenders will be fine.

[Swampfox 190]

I think Strauss and Bennell will get more time on half back flanks and back pockets as the time comes. If they don't and we remain with Bartram its not the worst thing. In a good side Bartram is probably decent enough to win a flag (is he really much worse than Steven Baker for StKilda).

There is nothing slow about Grimes either, he went practically step for step with Rioli last year.

We might need to draft another quick small defender specialist because I'm not keen on Cheney (think he lacks the speed for AFL and the size to play on taller players) and if McNamara is going to make it is off a half back flank.

Warnock, Frawley, Garland, Bartram and Grimes are the 5 guys who are comfortable as deep defenders at this stage.

Not sure what others think but i presume Grimes will eventually play more in the middle

Edited May 12, 2010 by Swampfox

[Pello 1]

So what if you dont see him as part of our LT plans! Currently he is the best option of the small forward and has played that role really really well this year. Generally his decision making and disposal have been very good. At the moment we have no better option there.

The only smart statement you have made is "Of course there is a 100+ minutes in a game and it may seem unfair to focus on those two errors in the context of all other mistakes that are made in a game." Its a pity you did not take note of it.

Any chance we lost the Collingwood game when we allowed them to kick 4 goals to 1 goal in the 2nd quarter? Or we allowed the Dogs 3 goals in the first quarter when we had no kicked one?

Some of the "he cost us the game" accusations when the result was tight is some of the most naive and self serving drivel on this site

Thanks for your critique of my post Rhino. I thought I did say he deserves his spot in the team based on his performances to date! Nevertheless the point I was trying to make that somehow escaped you is that I don't think Batram will be in the MFC long term plans - (3 - 5 yrs) because he makes crucial errors at crucial times. All players make them from time to time - he just makes them too often. But he will stay on our list until we can recruit a better option or mould someone like a Bail or Strauss into the player that we need to replace him.

There are a lot of smart small forwards going around at the moment and we need to build our list so we have a number of options that can match up on them. And for the time being one of those options is Bartram. But as I said before the stakes aren't as high on the errors that he makes today. But as we climb the ladder there will be big games and in those games there will be game changing moments and I have serious doubts whether Bartram is capable of meeting those challenges.

And as for your comment about "self serving dribble" - what are you on? I have an opinion and I shared it. I fail to see how you link sharing a view on this site with it being "self serving." Maybe you should stick to sharing your views and engage in healthy debate and leave the insults at the keyboard!

[jayceebee31 761]

Not sure what others think but i presume Grimes will eventually play more in the middle

I do and hope he does soon.

Edited May 14, 2010 by jayceebee31

[H_T 3,049]

Bartram's been good this year.

As for needing another small quick backman, I definitely agree - it's something I've posted about a fair few times.

Cheney's playing good footy at Casey but I don't think he has the speed for the role, based on what I saw of him at AFL level.

However, someone on here said he'd been suffering with an ankle injury that impacted on his pace, so maybe he's quicker than what he's shown at senior level so far.

You have posted a few times about it. For the record.

I think Strauss is quick enough for this role in my forecast. Bartram is definitely a candidate. But Strauss offers more in terms of kick outs and I envisage him being much more effective as he matures.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Barts is significantly improved this year IMO. Should not be dropped.

He'll develop as a back pocket as he plays there more.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Nevertheless the point I was trying to make that somehow escaped you is that I don't think Batram will be in the MFC long term plans - (3 - 5 yrs) because he makes crucial errors at crucial times. All players make them from time to time - he just makes them too often. But he will stay on our list until we can recruit a better option or mould someone like a Bail or Strauss into the player that we need to replace him.

I would have agreed with you last year. This year it has been different. His decision making and disposal under pressure have been good. Unless a better option does present itself (and Bartram has lifted the bar here) then at 22 he has every opportunity to be around.

There are a lot of smart small forwards going around at the moment and we need to build our list so we have a number of options that can match up on them. And for the time being one of those options is Bartram. But as I said before the stakes aren't as high on the errors that he makes today. But as we climb the ladder there will be big games and in those games there will be game changing moments and I have serious doubts whether Bartram is capable of meeting those challenges.

From a career perspective, the stakes are very high and he has lifted. What's to say he wont get even better? Who would have thought he would have played like he has.

And as for your comment about "self serving dribble" - what are you on? I have an opinion and I shared it. I fail to see how you link sharing a view on this site with it being "self serving." Maybe you should stick to sharing your views and engage in healthy debate and leave the insults at the keyboard!

Likewise and I have shared it.

I note above your point that the stakes are not high on his apparent errors now and you think he is playing well. But you earlier you blamed him for costing us 2 games. Self serving swipe there champ.

[Pello 1]

I would have agreed with you last year. This year it has been different. His decision making and disposal under pressure have been good. Unless a better option does present itself (and Bartram has lifted the bar here) then at 22 he has every opportunity to be around.

From a career perspective, the stakes are very high and he has lifted. What's to say he wont get even better? Who would have thought he would have played like he has.

Likewise and I have shared it.

I note above your point that the stakes are not high on his apparent errors now and you think he is playing well. But you earlier you blamed him for costing us 2 games. Self serving swipe there champ.

I'II stand by my comment that the two critical errors he made against Collingwood and Bulldogs came at crucial times late in the game that resulted in goals that lost us the lead and ultimately the game. In all likelihood had those errors not occurred we would have won. Its tough to single him out and I wasn't calling for his head after those errors. I am just realistically assessing the situation that we need a small, quick, tough, smart back and skilful back pocket in the future. There is a lot to like about Bartram - I love his intensity and courage. He is a good honest player who gives his all. But he's not our future - his skills (or lack thereof) will let us down even though he has improved as you point out (to which I agree).

And I still don't get the "self serving" reference.