Is our Defence good enough

[Theo 263]

Most posters regard our defence as being very good and possibly one of the best in the league. To some extent I agree however, with a query over Garland I think we need to look at our Key Position stocks. I still think we are one KP player short down back to cover injuries/flexibility. To me Warnock is workman-like, Rivers needs to recapture the form he had when he won the rising star award. Frawley I think is going to be a beauty.

So where does this leave us. Against 70% of opposition teams our defence stands up well, however I feel we are found wanting against teams with power forwards. Warnock and Rivers can compete but I think they struggle against bigger bodies. Media pundits have been saying for some time that we lack a KP back and KP forward. I think the foward line is now in better shape than the backline.

I have been to training a few times recently and the rehab group over the last few weeks has consisted of Garland, Warnock, Rivers, Bruce, Blease, McKenzie, Morton. Although this does not mean anything for this time of the year, it concerns me that we have to look at other options down back in case of injuries.

Stef Martin and Dunn could go down back? McNamara is the other player that could be developed in a KP role however he is only 190cm. There just doesn't seem to be many other options. Maybe Paul Johnson at CHB?

Next year GC17 will rape the draft and take any decent KPP available. There will always be mids on offer although we don't need any more just yet. I just think we are one or two players short on our list that can cover Key position roles.

If you were the backline coach how would you structure the backline to cover contingencies such as injuries, competing against power forwards etc with the team that we have.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Theo

[DeeSpencer 23,642]

If Garland is done and dusted we may need another tall, but I have all confidence in Frawley, Garland, Warnock and Rivers if fit and so I'm happy we didn't bother for a KPD in this draft. All 4 will be big enough to take any forward in the comp even though we will aim for Warnock and Frawley to do that. I'm expecting more improvement from Riv this year, he had good games and bad. Warnock is only serviceable but even in a terrible team in the last 2 years he has rarely been embarrassed.

For the flanker roles Joel Macdonald steps in, Bruce will play there this year and after that it is whoever you want. There are just so many talented players who can fill the rest.

I'd like to see Bennell given first shot on most of the crumbing indigenous forwards this year - Rioli, Neon, Alwyn Davey etc. If he adds a really strong defensive aspect to his game then we a looking at a hell of a player.

The other position we might need to settle is who to play on the dangerous smaller marking types - Popyz, LeCras, Medhurst etc. We used Frawley in that role but I think he has more important things. Garland if fit excels in the position. We could try Joel Mac or Cheney and Bell if they found there best form could be handy in that role. But after giving him a good shot in the midfield it might end up being Grimes' spot.

[Still Waiting 94]

The player balance and make up is pretty well covered with all types available. What we need to do is settle players into semi regular positions and tasks. Give them time ,advice and experience and just watch it all develop.

We will play finals in 2011 or 12.

[Jarka 767]

Most of the better teams defence's looks good for one reason, their midfield controls the games and doesn't allow direct ball movement into the area. Defence starts in the middle (and sometimes the forwardline). We've got all the talent we need to have a good team, we just now need to develop it properly.

[Adzman 2,086]

A Guy named "MacDonald" could be handy for 5-6 years. Will be joining us very shortly.

I will not write of Garland yet, sure he has been stunted by injuries, but so had Rivers who seems to be building some kind of renaissance in his mid 20s.

Martin is an interesting one. I am against playing him in the ruck, and really like him as a prospect down forward or back (preferable the latter).

Paul Johnson to me is not an option at CHB. Has shown glimpses down back and forward, but is a player who goes missing far too often. When you are playing one of the pillars (CHF/CHB) you need to be involved in much of the flow/play as possible to set up your team or deny your opposition.

Dunn is an interesting one. He is a hard worker, just has not found his niche with the team yet. Many have given up on him, not me. I see a role for Dunn in this side if he can take his game up to the next notch. Maybe across HBF, but would be better used across HFF.

Adding another prospect (Panos/Grimes) would add some nice future depth, that said I think our back 6 is looking fantastic and is one of the areas that doesn't worry me moving forward.

The ruck/midfield/forwardline is what has me losing sleep at night. After this draft we may just have sorted those few areas out.

[rpfc 27,678]

So where does this leave us. Against 70% of opposition teams our defence stands up well, however I feel we are found wanting against teams with power forwards. Warnock and Rivers can compete but I think they struggle against bigger bodies. Media pundits have been saying for some time that we lack a KP back and KP forward. I think the foward line is now in better shape than the backline.

I just think we are one or two players short on our list that can cover Key position roles.

If you were the backline coach how would you structure the backline to cover contingencies such as injuries, competing against power forwards etc with the team that we have.

Why are there so many who refuse to acknowledge Frawley as the Gorilla-tamer?

We all say, to a man (or woman), that he is our best defender, but when it comes to taking the opposition's focal point we look past the quickest, strongest, tightest defender - why?

Because you want him to be more offensive with the ball? That seems an odd expectation for your best defender.

Scarlett is an offensive beast but he still beats the best forwards before he gets the ball.

Other reasons? Tell me why Frawley can't beat Fevola, Anthony, Johnson, Ottens, Koschitzke, Roughhead etc.

Edited November 27, 2009 by rpfc

[Footynut 302]

Why are there so many who refuse to acknowledge Frawley as the Gorilla-tamer?

We all say, to a man (or woman), that he is our best defender, but when it comes to taking the opposition's focal point we look past the quickest, strongest, tightest defender - why?

Because you want him to be more offensive with the ball? That seems an odd expectation for your best defender.

Scarlett is an offensive beast but he still beats the best forwards before he gets the ball.

Other reasons? Tell me why Frawley can't beat Fevola, Anthony, Johnson, Ottens, Koschitzke, Roughhead etc.

Agree rpfc...

This thread again has a simple answer.

Yes it is good enough not by a little bit...by a long way.

This year our defence will be more settled and followers will see progress on the potential.

The important part of this year is the defence learns how to really gel together - and they will....

[pantaloons 2,019]

I've said during 2009 that I wouldn't swap our defence with any other club's. It's not the best yet, but easily the best young defence in the comp, pretty much covering all bases. It's the least of our concerns.

[rpfc 27,678]

And Jarka is right - you want your defence to look better?

Look up the field.

It's the midfield, stupid.

[45HG 1,539]

I think our defence is the strongest, most settled part of our team.

When our midfield improves it will look even better as the amount, and quality, of opposition supply diminishes

[Roost It 1,434]

Tapscott may be another who can run off half back and kick it 60m straight down Watt's throat

[Theo 263]

And Jarka is right - you want your defence to look better?

Look up the field.

It's the midfield, stupid.

Don't appeciate being called stupid.

We should be looking foward to address all contingencies. Our back six as it stands is very good and if settled could be the best in the league. No one is disputing that. However, you can't dismiss the fact that Garland maynot be fully fit next year.

Warnock was injured for a time last year and is currently in the rehab group. Sure a good midfied will help back up the defence but in my view our list needs to plan for contingencies such as injuries to KPdefenders. As I said earlier the opportunity to recruit KPP in the next two years is limited with GC17 and GWS.

It may or maynot become an issue but I think it does not hurt to look ahead 1-3 years.

If another draft was held tomorrow I bet the club would be seriously looking at KPP's. There's probably only going to be mids around as best available in the next 2 years.

[Jaded No More 59,979]

I've said during 2009 that I wouldn't swap our defence with any other club's. It's not the best yet, but easily the best young defence in the comp, pretty much covering all bases. It's the least of our concerns.

Absolutely.

Without bias, we have the strongest young defense in the competition.

I think Emma Quayle alluded to that recently, noting that she rates Frawley and Garland as the two best young defensive talls.

By the way, if Gawn and/or Fitzpatrick end up settling into the forward line, you always can throw Martin back into the defense. Did we forget how much potential he has shown down there before being put into the forward-ruck position?

[discworld demon 0]

Absolutely.

Without bias, we have the strongest young defense in the competition.

I think Emma Quayle alluded to that recently, noting that she rates Frawley and Garland as the two best young defensive talls.

By the way, if Gawn and/or Fitzpatrick end up settling into the forward line, you always can throw Martin back into the defense. Did we forget how much potential he has shown down there before being put into the forward-ruck position?

And don't forget Cale Morton! He's now about 194 cm tall and when he puts on about 20 kg he'll be frightening

[jnrmac 19,505]

A quote from Demonology where one poster attended a lunch with Chris Connolly.

"Garland had a set back but nowhere as serious as some would have you believe." He will play forward in 2010

Music to my ears as I had been thinking Matthew Egan with the metascarpal whatever.

[Little Goffy 12,988]

We're looking good overall. I would be happy to see a 'full-size' 195cm+ defender added over the next year or two.

That's probably what people are referring to when they suggesy we don't have a Gorilla keeper - we don't have any defenders over 193cm, unless you count Martin there, which I'll accept is a possibility.

But Warnock and Rivers aren't kids and we may lose one or the other in three-to-five years, so a new 'gun quality' tall defender ought to be a target for the next couple of drafts.

[discworld demon 0]

We're looking good overall. I would be happy to see a 'full-size' 195cm+ defender added over the next year or two.

That's probably what people are referring to when they suggesy we don't have a Gorilla keeper - we don't have any defenders over 193cm, unless you count Martin there, which I'll accept is a possibility.

But Warnock and Rivers aren't kids and we may lose one or the other in three-to-five years, so a new 'gun quality' tall defender ought to be a target for the next couple of drafts.

Do you think it's all down to height?

Matthew Scarlett's about 192 (I think) and IMHO he's the best tall key defender going around at the moment.

I reckon that height is just one factor, bulk being another (as is of course skill).

As a forward David Neitz at 192 wasn't that tall but boy oh boy was he bulky.

When last we played Carlton, looking at them stand together, James Frawley appeared to be somewhat taller than Brendan Fevola (maybe 20mm or so) but Fevola appeared far bulkier to the order of maybe 10 kg.

Give him a couple of years and young Chip could be our gorilla tamer. He has the height, the speed and the skill, all he needs is the extra bulk.

[DirtyDees DDC 171]

I wouldn't surprise me to see Luke Tapscott play a similar role in defence to Josh Hunt of the cats. He's strong, tough, and a great kick. We may have finally found the player to take the kickouts. That means one less job for Aaron davey. Strauss could be another option.

Fitzpatrick could also be groomed for a key defensive position because of his speed and height. He could take over in 3 -5 years from Warnock and Rivers. He could also play forward but i'm not sure if he's got the elite 'one-touch' skills that are needed on the forward line. I think Colin Garland has these skills and could move forward in the future.

[H_T 2,941]

Theo.

I think our backline components are strong. Our midfield is being addressed to become something elite-like in the future. Which will indirectly help. As someone stated earlier in the thread, defence starts in the middle. If you re-analyse the backline, you will note that Frawley can tackle the bigger forwards along with Warnock. We have Rivers and Garland and we're about to recruit MacDonald to shore up any short fall from either of these two. We also have a host of Grimes, McDonald, Bennell, Bruce, Strauss and a few others (ie McNamara could possibly be a future project player down back) that can play down back and provide run and match-up options on match day.

[Akum 2,660]

Most of the better teams defence's looks good for one reason, their midfield controls the games and doesn't allow direct ball movement into the area. Defence starts in the middle (and sometimes the forwardline). We've got all the talent we need to have a good team, we just now need to develop it properly.

Another reason why Gysberts & Tapscott are good picks - both are tough and tackle really well, so are capable of applying major defensive pressure from forward line or midfield, which does need to be more of a feature next year & thereafter. Scully & Trengove seem good in this respect too.

[rpfc 27,678]

Don't appeciate being called stupid.

Oh, Theodore...

There is a saying - 'It's the economy, stupid.'

I retro-fitted that saying to make a similar point in footy, rather than in politics.

Basically, good midfields make good defences.

Ugh.

[demoniac 1,246]

Even just looking at key defenders our defensive stocks are coming together nicely.

Frawley, 21, 193cm, 91kg

Future All Australian Key Defender. Strong one on one, good mark anf spoil and has that vital speed required to be an elite Key Defender. Another pre season should see him add another couple of kgs to his 2008 listed weight of 91kg. Rebounds well, just needs to further mprove his kicking.

Warnock, 26, 192cm, 95kg

Reliable and unobtrusive Key Defender. Rarely beaten one on one. Just gets the job done. Another strong mark.

Rivers, 25, 192cm, 90kg

Key Defender. On the way back. Under rated by some for his spoiling and defensive marking. Having a full pre season under his belt after his first full season in a few years should see him go into 2010 with greater confidence in his body and his own ability. Rare ablity to read the play and judge when to leave his man and help a team mate.

Garland, 22, 191cm, 85kg

Athletic and good mark. Reads the play well. Could play in defence, on the wing or up forward.

Martin, 23, 198cm, 100kg

Athletic and versatile. Late starter to AFL. Still developing. Can play forward or back and pinch hit in ruck. Height and strength means ideal option for taking resting Rucks in defence.

Edited November 29, 2009 by demoniac

[DeeM 42]

The player balance and make up is pretty well covered with all types available. What we need to do is settle players into semi regular positions and tasks. Give them time ,advice and experience and just watch it all develop.

We will play finals in 2011 or 12.

Most of the better teams defence's looks good for one reason, their midfield controls the games and doesn't allow direct ball movement into the area. Defence starts in the middle (and sometimes the forwardline). We've got all the talent we need to have a good team, we just now need to develop it properly.

I think this is all right. Teams that win premierships are the ones whose midfield doesn’t allow direct and constant flow of footy into their backline, having said that it is equally important for the players to play as many games together, so that they are used to each other. What is player X's strengths and weaknesses. If this was to happen it will result in a very very good backline that will withstand to pressure because they know each others role and each other.

[discworld demon 0]

Even just looking at key defenders our defensive stocks are coming together nicely.

Frawley, 21, 193cm, 91kg

Future All Australian Key Defender. Strong one on one, good mark anf spoil and has that vital speed required to be an elite Key Defender. Another pre season should see him add another couple of kgs to his 2008 listed weight of 91kg. Rebounds well, just needs to further mprove his kicking.

Warnock, 26, 192cm, 95kg

Reliable and unobtrusive Key Defender. Rarely beaten one on one. Just gets the job done. Another strong mark.

Rivers, 25, 192cm, 90kg

Key Defender. On the way back. Under rated by some for his spoiling and defensive marking. Having a full pre season under his belt after his first full season in a few years should see him go into 2010 with greater confidence in his body and his own ability. Rare ablity to read the play and judge when to leave his man and help a team mate.

Garland, 22, 191cm, 85kg

Athletic and good mark. Reads the play well. Could play in defence, on the wing or up forward.

Martin, 23, 198cm, 100kg

Athletic and versatile. Late starter to AFL. Still developing. Can play forward or back and pinch hit in ruck. Height and strength means ideal option for taking resting Rucks in defence.

I think I've mentioned this before in another thread - but certainly worth repeating. Steve Silvagni has stated that key defenders generally need to have about 100 games experience before they become really effective.

Now, other than Rivers, I don't think any of the above mentioned have played 50 games. Garland has played all of 20!

So, if one goes by Silvagni's statement and the general development shown by Martin, Frawley and Warnock and (prior to last year) Garland, the future looks quite good.

[Gooner 9]

Our defence is definitely the best part of our team, but like the rest of the team, it still needs a bit of work.

Hopefully some of the kids will come on and we'll have a few quality runners from half back and the younger defenders that we've got there are the moment will continue to come on.

The most important thing is that we don't suffer too many injuries. We've already got a couple of injury prone players in Rivers and Garland down back, and we want to make sure we look after our players so our team isn't devastated by injuries.