We must take Scully/Butcher

[Mousey 47]

People can list the 20 minfielders we currently have... all it does is get in the way of the truth.

The truth is that our midfield is AVERAGE AT BEST! Our midfield has been beaten week-in week-out. We get the fewest inside 50 entries in the afl. We are poor at clearences and we don't have even 1 star player in the midfield.

An A-grade midfield is what will win us a premiership.

An A-grade midfield makes good forwards look like great forwards. How do you think Cam Mooney would be playing if he was a demon? I'll tell you. CRAP.

Our forward line needs bolstering... true.

DO NOT pass on the best available player simply bc you like the idea of a 'twin towers'.

The one common denominator of every premiership is that they had absolute gun midfielders and at least 2 star midfielders (star= top 20 players in afl). Having a 'twin towers' combination is NOT a common denominator of all premiership teams. Just ask Cats, WCE, Sydney and PortAdelaide.

If Trengove is the second best player in the draft we'd be insane if we didn't take him. Full stop.

See i dont agree we have a D grade midfield!

We have a developing midfield. A developing young midfield cant automatically become an A grade midfield, it takes years of playing together and developing bodys and skills to mix it with the best.

I also think i can count on my 1 hand the amount of times we actually played our best midfielders in the 22 in the actual midfield this year. There was a lot of experimenting going on everywhere and i think its unfair to simply label our midfield D grade at best.

Im not simply passing on the best available player in Trengove. What im saying is im confident our midfield along with scully will become a great midfield one day( a full pre-season for brock, you will see a different player).

Im saying i want to pick another type of best player in this draft. Not for the whole twin tower effect, just because i think he would help make our forward line look very very dangerous for a long time.

We lack that FF.

Watts probably will eventuate as a HF that leads up the ground.

Jurrah is also a half forward prospect not a FF in my eyes. His delivery inside fifty on the HF line has been sublime for someone so new.

Bate Watts Jurrah

Wonna Butcher and take your pick.

[rpfc 28,263]

If Butcher is as good a prospect as Trengove or Morabito then yes, take him at two.

If he is not, don't take him. We need stars more than we need supposed 'balance.'

(I say supposed balance because our midfield is in awful shape, much worse than the forward line. Bate, Watts, Jurrah, Sylvia, Petterd and Wonaeamirri will kick enough goals in the next 5 years. We need some blokes to get the pill and kick it properly to them.)

[Jack7 528]

OK,as the OP,i'm on my own here.I can see what you all are trying to say about taking the best 2 mids but you're putting all your eggs in the midfield.All i'm saying is let's take the best mid to boost our midfield and the best KPF to boost our forward line.We simply must improve across the board,not just improve in one area.

If we take 2 mids,we won't kick a big enough score to win games against top 4 sides,we averaged 11 goals a game this year and we won't be able to boost our forward line after this year with Gold Coast and West Sydney raping the draft.

We can strengthen our midfield along the way but we won't have another top 5 pick to land a Key forward in the next 5+ years.If we take Butcher,our forward line will be complete for the next 10 years with Watts,Butcher,Jurrah and all our small forwards,we won't have to spend another draft pick on a forward,we can spend all our draft picks on mids for the next 5 years.He's only 17 and 197cm and will probably top out at 202cm,he just plucks marks from the tops of packs or crashes through them and any spilt marks will be swept up by our myriad of small forwards,take your pick.

We need a 70-80 goal a year full forward and John Butcher is our best chance to give us that.

[Mondê 525]

Sorry Jack7 I'm going to have to agree with Sylvinator on this one. Using Geelong of 2007-Present and WCE of 2005-2006 as case studies...An A list midfield can make an awful forward line look dangerous. Not the other way around. If the ball isn't coming down to the forwards in a manner that gives ANY forward a decent chance, you will not win many games. You can add the current Doggies team to that list. I also believe that Blease, Strauss, Scully and some of the older players have the potential to become a really good midfield group. However, having monitored Strauss' junior career and U/18 carnival I believe he will develop into a HBF designated kicker role - much like Wheatley for us or Gilbee for the dogs.

You say that we need a 60-70 goal per season forward, Watts in a few years will hopefully be that and Liam Jurrah has kicked 20 goals in 9 games. Take into consideration that Jurrah hasn't had a pre-season, and the fact that the delivery to him has been mediocre...he could easily become a 50+ a season goalkicker. Add Bate and Wonaemirri to that list and the forward line actually looks very dangerous granted the delivery to them is excellent.

One last point is, a premiership winning midfield is one which not only assists the forwards but kicks goals themselves. Trengove can find the big sticks, don't you worry about that. Who out of our current midfield crop are proven goalkickers? I can list 3 - Green, Morton, and Sylvia. Even then Morton only chips in now and again...and Green is coming towards the end. Goalkicking midfielders are invaluable. Which is why we shouldn't hesitate to take the best available in the draft with selections 1 & 2... and in my opinion that is Scully and Trengove.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

The only way I'd change my stance (take the 2 best, which happen to be midfielders) is if we were to trade in a Boak or a Pearce from Port and not give away pick 1 or 2 in the process. If we were getting Scully and Boak/Pearce then I'd almost be tempted to look at Butcher if his good form continues and he impresses at draft campl

[Clanger King 9]

Haha we will not take Butcher... Seriously why would we take say the 4th best player in the land when we can have the 2nd? (He is well behind Scully Trengove and Morabito.) Just cause he is Victorian? Just cause we need a Full Forward?

C'mon its a National game. Kids are going to have to get over the whole thing of playing in there home state especially with the 2 new teams coming in. We can't and never will draft only Victorians. We really have to get over losing Scott Thompson... and us needing a FF. Pick 18 is ideal for picking for team specifics.

Butcher is a 197cm FF only (Has never been All Australian in that position in 2years either by the way) that plays on kids i dare say 8-10cm smaller then him. As i have said before what TAC coach is going to put a 195cm kid at FB? None because they want taller players to play and develop in key positions. He should be kicking bags of 7-8. Get over the whole pack marking. There is about 3 pack marks a game in the forward 50 in todays game. I would rather a player that had strong hands on the lead a good kick and can play more then one position. I think Bailey likes players with versatility.

Trengove and Morabito are both goal kicking midfeilders. Something we are crying out for. Considering we are going to take Scully for number 1 his biggest knock is that he doesn't kick enough goals also another point. I think it would help Scullys development if we took another mid only because i think alot of ppl see our hopes and dreams with this kid hes going to be dealing with pressure as it is. What happens when he gets heavily tagged and he will. I know he has a great engine and "could" deal with it but if we had 2 A graders then someone else might get sat on at times. No one gets tagged in our Midfield. Aaron Davey is the only one and he free wheels.

[Mousey 47]

Haha we will not take Butcher... Seriously why would we take say the 4th best player in the land when we can have the 2nd? (He is well behind Scully Trengove and Morabito.) Just cause he is Victorian? Just cause we need a Full Forward?

C'mon its a National game. Kids are going to have to get over the whole thing of playing in there home state especially with the 2 new teams coming in. We can't and never will draft only Victorians. We really have to get over losing Scott Thompson... and us needing a FF. Pick 18 is ideal for picking for team specifics.

Butcher is a 197cm FF only (Has never been All Australian in that position in 2years either by the way) that plays on kids i dare say 8-10cm smaller then him. As i have said before what TAC coach is going to put a 195cm kid at FB? None because they want taller players to play and develop in key positions. He should be kicking bags of 7-8. Get over the whole pack marking. There is about 3 pack marks a game in the forward 50 in todays game. I would rather a player that had strong hands on the lead a good kick and can play more then one position. I think Bailey likes players with versatility.

Trengove and Morabito are both goal kicking midfeilders. Something we are crying out for. Considering we are going to take Scully for number 1 his biggest knock is that he doesn't kick enough goals also another point. I think it would help Scullys development if we took another mid only because i think alot of ppl see our hopes and dreams with this kid hes going to be dealing with pressure as it is. What happens when he gets heavily tagged and he will. I know he has a great engine and "could" deal with it but if we had 2 A graders then someone else might get sat on at times. No one gets tagged in our Midfield. Aaron Davey is the only one and he free wheels.

Hmmm

After one year of the 2009 draftees would opinions and the draft be different?

For example- Hamish Hartlett, i remember being VERY fancied midfielder, another South Aussie, talented for sure but wonder if Port would of taken the KPP in Michael Hurley who has been outstanding if the draft was again?

[Clanger King 9]

Hmmm

After one year of the 2009 draftees would opinions and the draft be different?

For example- Hamish Hartlett, i remember being VERY fancied midfielder, another South Aussie, talented for sure but wonder if Port would of taken the KPP in Michael Hurley who has been outstanding if the draft was again?

Haha no i think they would be very happy with Hartlett, Hindsight is a wonderful thing but why would you speculate about pick 2. Get creative after the first round. Especially there being such stand outs in the top 2-3 players. It would be a big risk/gamble taking someone that plays only 1 position this being FF and not being All Australian in both years.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Clanger King

[DemonDing 56]

People can list the 20 minfielders we currently have... all it does is get in the way of the truth.

The truth is that our midfield is AVERAGE AT BEST! Our midfield has been beaten week-in week-out. We get the fewest inside 50 entries in the afl. We are poor at clearences and we don't have even 1 star player in the midfield.

An A-grade midfield is what will win us a premiership.

An A-grade midfield makes good forwards look like great forwards. How do you think Cam Mooney would be playing if he was a demon? I'll tell you. CRAP.

Our forward line needs bolstering... true.

DO NOT pass on the best available player simply bc you like the idea of a 'twin towers'.

The one common denominator of every premiership is that they had absolute gun midfielders and at least 2 star midfielders (star= top 20 players in afl). Having a 'twin towers' combination is NOT a common denominator of all premiership teams. Just ask Cats, WCE, Sydney and PortAdelaide.

If Trengove is the second best player in the draft we'd be insane if we didn't take him. Full stop.

Couldnt agree with you anymore with what you said with Cam Mooney i've been saying that for years too my geelong friends he is average at BEST, he would not get a kick playing for us in 09.

I'm still on the fence as too who id like too see at pick 2 i read one persons point of view with butch and think yeah grab him then some one argues the trengove point and im back on the trengove band wagon.... Hope the MFC recruiters have been doing there home work coz i would not like to be making this decsion.

Im leaning towards getting Trengove only because if him and Scully are as good as everyone says then surely if we kick the ball enough times to our forward line our forwards would start kicking a bloody a score. You never no Brad Miller might end up beening our Cam mooney, [censored] but when the ball is delievered on a silver platter it makes life easy. (In saying that i still hope miller gets traded or delisted)

[Guest hangon007]

The only way I'd change my stance (take the 2 best, which happen to be midfielders) is if we were to trade in a Boak or a Pearce from Port and not give away pick 1 or 2 in the process. If we were getting Scully and Boak/Pearce then I'd almost be tempted to look at Butcher if his good form continues and he impresses at draft campl

IMHO ... this is a very good point. Too many people are looking at it on a pick by pick basis and not forming an overall draft strategy.

Again IMHO we have to wait for the outcome of two very important events 1/ Draft Camp & IMHO more importantly 2/ Trade Week.

Hopefully both these events should make the picture clearer for us all.

[beelzebub 23,313]

IMHO ... this is a very good point. Too many people are looking at it on a pick by pick basis and not forming an overall draft strategy.

Again IMHO we have to wait for the outcome of two very important events 1/ Draft Camp & IMHO more importantly 2/ Trade Week.

Hopefully both these events should make the picture clearer for us all.

Pretty well on the money. Other than picks 1 and 2 which must surely be Scully(1) and next best thing (2) ( my preference still Trengove..atm ) everything else is "connected" . Many folks are suggesting we do this or that with 18 , 34 and 50. The reality is we may not have 18,34 and 50 come draft time...We could have 29 and 60 for all we know...but have picked up someone useful and moved some cloggers on etc. In reality the prize of this draft is the package of the firsttwo picks together with teh leverage of PSD1...everything else is gravy really !!

[John Dee 445]

Using Geelong of 2007-Present and WCE of 2005-2006 as case studies...

Wouldn't Geelong of 2008 be evidence against your argument?

[John Dee 445]

Jarka,the best kid available-we didn't do this last year,we took Watts because of the hole left by Neitz,Robbo.We simply had to take Watts.

Watts,Butcher,Jurrah for the next 15 years.

We took the best available player last year. Jack Watts was head and shoulders above all of the other players in last year's draft. If the draft was held again, we would still take him in a heartbeat.

[Jarka 767]

OK,as the OP,i'm on my own here.I can see what you all are trying to say about taking the best 2 mids but you're putting all your eggs in the midfield.All i'm saying is let's take the best mid to boost our midfield and the best KPF to boost our forward line.We simply must improve across the board,not just improve in one area.

If we take 2 mids,we won't kick a big enough score to win games against top 4 sides,we averaged 11 goals a game this year and we won't be able to boost our forward line after this year with Gold Coast and West Sydney raping the draft.

We can strengthen our midfield along the way but we won't have another top 5 pick to land a Key forward in the next 5+ years.If we take Butcher,our forward line will be complete for the next 10 years with Watts,Butcher,Jurrah and all our small forwards,we won't have to spend another draft pick on a forward,we can spend all our draft picks on mids for the next 5 years.He's only 17 and 197cm and will probably top out at 202cm,he just plucks marks from the tops of packs or crashes through them and any spilt marks will be swept up by our myriad of small forwards,take your pick.

We need a 70-80 goal a year full forward and John Butcher is our best chance to give us that.

Jack, it's not about taking the two best midfielders or any other combination, it's about taking the two best talent regardless of what position they play. I don't have the knowledge nor experience to come up with the answer but looking at the performances of both Morabito and Trengove (throw Lucas, Martin and Rohan in that group as well) and the decision is going to be a difficult one. If Butcher ends up being the 2nd best talent in the draft then we should take him, out of interest do you think he is a better prospect than the other guys being mentioned or do you want him because he's a key forward?

[Hannabal 4]

H, right now who would you pick (im only asking because you've seen both)

I left TD after the Championships with my Brother and independently we both earmarked Scully, Trengove and Morabito as the 3 standout prospects. Later that evening I had other Melb supporters that weren't even at the game picking holes in Morabito. You're wasting your breath even trying to have a view on a player if you haven't seen them live.

I started favouring Morabito, then swayed to Trengove as he may have been the safer bet at pick 2 and now I'm on the fence. I'd be happy with either. If Morabito becomes the player I reckon he will then I'd take him. You win Grand Finals with a player like that.

I'll wait til after DC to make a final opinion. But Butcher won't be part of my plans.

I'll be interested to see how Morabito goes in the new kicking test. I reckon his kicking is far better than suggested around here. But I want to see the results.

[old55 23,404]

I want an out and out deadset gun at pick 2 and whilst there are no guarantees with whomever we choose ...

I'm a long term fan of "best available" but I acknowledge that it's very difficult to compare different kinds of players.

I think we need to calibrate our expectations of who we might pick up at pick 2. The best way to do this is look at who has been picked up there in the relevant past. It's probably worth throwing the net over picks 2 & 3 to get a decent sample set. It's also probably unreasonable to include the most recent drafts because the outcomes aren't conclusive yet, so I've left Naitanui, Hill, Cotchin (looks like he'll be a gun but will his body stand up?), Masten. It's a toss up whether to include Gumbleton and Hansen but Gibbs and Leuenbereger either side are not fully established so I've left them out too. So I've gone 1997-2005 inclusive

Pick 2

====

Ottens Brad

Longmuir Justin

Hasleby Paul

Koschitzke Justin

Ball Luke

Wells Daniel

Walker Andrew

Roughead Jarad

Thomas Dale

Pick 3

====

Croad Trent

Fosdike Nic

Fiora Aaron

Didak Alan

Judd Chris

Brennan Jared

Sylvia Colin

Griffen Ryan

Ellis Xavier

That's the sort of quality we're looking at. We need to compare the Butchers, the Trengoves and the Morabitos against that list and see whether we think we're getting value.

[H_T 3,043]

I disagree!

I understand the desire for a 'twin towers' combination up forward in Watts and Butcher... it is mouth watering...

HOWEVER I think there is an important and common misconception on this forum.

The misconception is that it is easier to draft star midfielders than it is star key position players and therefore we can just hope to draft a star midfielder later in the draft.

Well guess what! It is not easy to draft a star midfielder. In fact, I don't think the demons have had a star midfielder in the 10 years I have supported the club. Proof of this is that the demons only 'midfielders' to make the AA team in the last decade was really only McDonald on the bench and Yze on a wing.

Premiership are won from top quality midfielders! That is a fact. Look at the last 7 years premiers FFS! Geelong, WCE, PortAdel, even Syd had Barry Hall as their single key forward. It is possible to win a premiership without a 'twin towers' combination.

Therefore we should pick Scully and Trengove, who also happen to be the best available at those picks.

We've got a gun backline. Let's create our gun midfield. Our forward line is also coming together...

Watts, Bate, Jurrah, Pettard, Sylvia, Wonaeamirri, Maric, Jetta... that's some serious talent. Just because they're not all 197cm, doesn't mean they won't create an extemely potent forward line.

Good post sylvinator. I agree and let's just put our faith in the FD and recruiting to make the best decisions possible. Let's remember there is virtually still just under 3 months to go. Still a Draft Camp to go, where every inch and millisecond will be measured and analysed, interviews still to take place and then follow up interviews which pinpoint things such as leadership and decision making.

Can't wait to be honest. Unfortunately it's so far away. Then there is the PSD. More of a wait. May as well do the Christmas shopping now.

[Tatu 416]

Hey guys ive been reading demonland for about two years now, and i have enjoyed reading everyones different opinions.

I think i can help with this topic! I was lucky enough to get invited into the rooms before the game on the weekend,

after about half an hour of being there i noticed John Butcher was in the rooms with his dad, brother and manager

and he was talking to Jack Watts. DB and CC went over and introduced themselves, and i then got a chance to speak

to Butchers dad, he sounded pretty keen for his son to come to Melbourne and stay in Victoria, he said " i think that melbourne could do with another tall forward" and also told me that Butcher is good friends with Watts which would

make it easier for him to fit in if he comes to Melbourne. I also herd his manager say to his dad "i think Melbournes

list is in front of Richmonds re-building wise".

that's good news

[Tatu 416]

Brock - Went backwards this year, whether it be due to injury or something else he has planted the seed of doubt in our heads

Beamer - brilliant year, no problems here

Jones - Doubts still remain about his delivery and decision making

Sylvia - better suited to HFF, to occasionally pinch hit in the middle

Davey - B & F, no problems here

Blease - too early to tell, although the type of injury he has finished N Brown

Strauss - too early to tell

Jetta - Promising signs, bigger tank required and some bulk

Morton - too valuable elsewhere on the ground, could play any of 10 positions

Dunn - See Sylvia

Grimes - Will be a gun, lets hope and pray they can cure this back injury for good, no problems here

Buckley - may have been taken over by the young guys coming through

Bartram - Doubts over decision making and disposal

Valenti - Won't be around next year

McKenzie - Sore glimpses but not enough to be automatic selection

Bail - Does not look up to it, really struggled at Casey even playing Casey 2nd's

Scully - TBA

This tells me we really need to take 2 mids with our first 2 selections. I think with Watts, Jurrah, Wonna, Sylvia, Bate and co, in a couple of season there will be enough scoring otions there, just let them get used to playing with one another.

Trengove - too early to tell

[hillie 41]

i really believe we should take butcher with pick 2. he's to good a prospect to pass up. key position forwards do not grow on trees and it's rare that the elite come from outside the top 5 picks. i hope we don't have a chance to pickup a player of this quality for another 10 years (in that we won't be finishing so low on the ladder). the more i think about it the more i lean towards butcher. it is a tantalizing prospect having our own buddy and roughead set up with LJ as the icing. taking out ths years performance at the championships, i believe he was injured, last year as a 17 year old, he showed some jonathan brown like courage and took contested grabs and kicked bags of goals. That was up against a quality draft year. to say he wasn't playing against the best defenders as the talls were played forward is rubbish. he showed he could dominate against those he will be dominating in the years to come. i just hope we're not on the other end of it.

[thevil1 421]

i really believe we should take butcher with pick 2. he's to good a prospect to pass up. key position forwards do not grow on trees and it's rare that the elite come from outside the top 5 picks. i hope we don't have a chance to pickup a player of this quality for another 10 years (in that we won't be finishing so low on the ladder). the more i think about it the more i lean towards butcher. it is a tantalizing prospect having our own buddy and roughead set up with LJ as the icing. taking out ths years performance at the championships, i believe he was injured, last year as a 17 year old, he showed some jonathan brown like courage and took contested grabs and kicked bags of goals. That was up against a quality draft year. to say he wasn't playing against the best defenders as the talls were played forward is rubbish. he showed he could dominate against those he will be dominating in the years to come. i just hope we're not on the other end of it.

I've been on the trengrove/morabito fence a bit, but you make some good points, 12 months ago most ppl had scully and butcher as locks in the top few picks, I think most have forgotten the potential he showed last year against better prospects... I know hurley played mostly fb as a junior, and towelled watts up in a game last year, did he and butcher ever battle? I rate hurley pretty highly myself

[DemonDing 56]

I've been on the trengrove/morabito fence a bit, but you make some good points, 12 months ago most ppl had scully and butcher as locks in the top few picks, I think most have forgotten the potential he showed last year against better prospects... I know hurley played mostly fb as a junior, and towelled watts up in a game last year, did he and butcher ever battle? I rate hurley pretty highly myself

Hurley is a gun, Watts got a bit of work ahead of him to catch Hurley. Really hope Jack has a massive pre season.

[Jack7 528]

Jarka said:

If Butcher ends up being the 2nd best talent in the draft then we should take him, out of interest do you think he is a better prospect than the other guys being mentioned or do you want him because he's a key forward?

I Say:

I don't compare Key Forwards with mids,they play totally different games.Who would you choose-Daniel Rich or Michael Hurley?I would take Hurley in a heartbeat,he plays forward/back and he is a KEY in himself,Rich is part of a 10 rotating midfield.

I want to see this for 10 years:

Bate-Watts-Sylvia

Wonna-Butcher-Jurrah

I think the Football department will repeat last years draft when they overlooked the best mid in Rich to take Watts to fill the void of Neita,Robbo.Last year we drafted for position,not the best player.It was the right decision,even though Rich is a gun mid and will be better than Trengove,IMO.

Jack Grimes said today at the Rising Star awards that he'll be playing midfield next year.He was nominated for the Rising Star after playing in the midfield against WCE and racked up 29 pozzies and his best game for the club.Grimes may be a better mid than Trengove,all you guys have seen 5 minutes of Trengove on Youtube!!!

I've seen Butcher play 5 times this year and he will rip games open with his 202cm frame (he's tipped to grow 5cm more) and when he puts on more upper body muscle,unstoppable.

[Axis of Bob 11,686]

Watts and Hurley played one quarter on each other and the ball barely entered the Sandringham forward 50. It was a bit of a non-event really.

[drdrake 3,162]

I had the chance to watch Essendon and Hawthorn this morning, I dislike Essendon but I tell you they have some very good young KPP coming through. It was scary I hate to say this they will be very good over the next 2-3 years, in fact they will be the ones that I think now will be peaking just before or around the same time as our list.

We are still missing KPP , we have

Rivers, Frawley, Warnock defenders only Essendon Pears, Hooker, Fletcher

Martin, Garland may switch hit forward and back Essendon Hurley, Daniher

Watts, Newton, Miller Forwards Essendon Neagle, Ryder, Gumbleton, Still

So off a list of 39 senior players we have 8 KPP, IMO you need a mimimum of 5 playing per game 3 spare and two of the forwards have been around for a few years and still find themself at Casey.

In two years if Watts gets injured who plays as a tall forward, if Watts has a form issues or can't put on weight, we need a second tall option, if Butcher is the best tall forward in the draft we have to get him.

IMO the game is evolving again and it is going back to needing key forwards, you watch the finals the St Kilda(Roo, Kosi), Geelong(Ottens, Mooney, Hawkins), Collingwood(Anthony, Cloke, Rocca), Adelaide(Tippett, Henschel), Brisbane(Brown, Bradshaw), Carlton(Fev, Cloke, O'Halphin), Essendon(Hurley, Neagle), really only the Bulldogs won't go into the finals with at least 2 key forwards.