Emma Quayle's article on tanking

[Pipefitter 2,027]

Emma Quayles article makes alot of sense to me. If we are genuinely bad enough to lose all the remaining games then yes we deserve the picks, but winning is an improvement on next year, encouragement to our current kids to put in another strong preseason to improve again next year.

[Theo 263]

I spent a couple of hours today reading through all the 'tanking' threads that popped up here while I was away this week.

I think I am far too conflicted on the issue to compose a post that wont contradict itself from one sentence to the next. I don't think I will waste my energy attempting to argue for one side or the other. I would make a mockery of it.

But I will say a couple of things. I thought for the most part it was the same old arguments I've read all this season with the weekly dose of priority pick/tanking threads. I'm sure there will be more and more of them over the coming weeks. I think the arguments go round in circles and nobody gives any ground. In the end though, it doesn't matter what we think or hope for. It's in the clubs hands.

I've had a foot in both camps for pretty much the whole season. I can't help it. I can't go to games hoping to lose, willing against my club, especially such a young group giving their all. I guess I am logically crippled by the immediate passion for the contest.

At the same time, the thought of adding both Scully and another quality youngster leaves me a little breathless. I think the club has a great opportunity before it. Whether we take advantage of it remains to be seen.

All I know is the system stinks. No supporter group should be put through this anxiety and compromise.

I think there is one thing that is true. And that is, if we haven't drafted well over the recent years, adding Scully won't make a lick of difference. If we have botched 2007 and 2008 and don't draft well in the upcoming draft, getting Scully won't win us a flag. Drafting and list development isn't merely a matter of cherry picking the top youngsters, it's about drafting well deep into drafts. This is what we have to have done and do. From what I have seen of our recent draft picks so far, I am optimistic about our future and believe in the coming years we will look back at these recent drafts with praise, and I have no doubt adding Scully and another young talent will only make the chances of the club winning the elusive 13th flag a firmer reality.

But in the end, we need a premiership quality list, not merely a few premiership quality players.

Excellent comments. We do need to draft deep into the draft. I't's not just about Scully it's about the picks after that. For instance the following players were all rookie selection that are good/very good players.

Danyle Pearce

Aaron Sandilands

Dean Cox

Liam Picken

Adam Varcoe

Alan Toovey

Jason Porplyza

Brad Sewell

Sure we did well with Aaron Davey and Robbo as rookies but have been so so with our overall recruitment over the last 40 years.

We've had some great players over this time but have not had sufficient depth to compete when it really counts. Although the jury is out I think that we've recruited well in 2007 and 2008 and need to continue this in 2009. But we still have a fair way to go. A priority pick would certainly help and I would be annoyed if the club does not ensure that this happens. I want flags, not middle of the table finishes. St. Kilda, Hawthorn and Carlton have had plenty of early and priority picks and look where they are.

Smart recruitment=Good players=success=members=money=blockbuster games=premierships.

I'm tired of the club always appearing to do the "right thing" just to please the media and everyone else. We need to be a bit more ruthless particularly with list management. Recruitment is the life-blood of any club and this is where our resources should be put. Let's find another jurrahcane mark 11

For what it's worth West Coast WILL NOT win another game this year to ensure they get a priority pick. Put your money on Freo next week. I'm sure that if Freo are on 4 wins when they play us they will do a Carlton 2007 and not win that game..

Smart clubs look to the future and don't worry about winning meaningless games in the short term. We should do the same this year and plan for 2010 onwards with recruiting as the top priority.

[Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde 0]

Emma Quayle the "the draft expert" underestimates the marketting value of good draft picks.

Sure Adelaide have built a decent side on no early picks - however, who's young face could they use to promote the club for prospective members (not as if they need them anyway).

It's comparing apples and oranges, a side like Melbourne is in a highly competitive market with 7 other AFL clubs in the same town.

Melbourne needs to use the early draft pick as a promotional/markerting tool to instill hope and passion for the club from its members, and supporters who may be considering signing up.

[Binmans PA 26,302]

I wish you could just take that statement and sticky it to a new thread, and have all "tanking" talk reflect that statement. I don't think ANY club has tanked. The blues certainly came the closest, but even they did things that fell within "list management."

Perhaps, so, but taking Brendan Fevola off against the Pies, when he was smashing it up in the latter part of 2007 was certainly tanking.

[H_T 2,941]

Emma Quayle makes a lot of sense when she says that "if the Demons win, it will mean they're getting better."

Maybe true. But our form earlier in the year with honourable losses also meant we were getting better. Winning against the likes of the Eagles and the Power (on/off again) is debatable.

I personally think we will easily beat Freo when we play them later in the season and we're at least even money in our next two games against Sydney and Richmond (Richo will be playing for Coburg that week).

Everyone says we'll easily account for Freo. They're probably going on Freo's track record away and the fact they're now on the bottom. Although I disagree - we're no shoo-in to win that game. It's 15th v 16th. And if Freo play like they did against Brisbane, they're a chance to win. Note: (Sandilands is due to come back in).

edit: - Just learnt about Tarrant's injury. Yeah, I favour Melbourne to win now.

Disagree with these two points.

if the Demons win, it will mean they're getting better, Not always true. We recently beat the Eagles because they've already put the cue in the rack and Port were atrocious. Any decent team would have beaten us in either game.

Agree.

....

....

All I know is the system stinks. No supporter group should be put through this anxiety and compromise.

I think there is one thing that is true. And that is, if we haven't drafted well over the recent years, adding Scully won't make a lick of difference. If we have botched 2007 and 2008 and don't draft well in the upcoming draft, getting Scully won't win us a flag. Drafting and list development isn't merely a matter of cherry picking the top youngsters, it's about drafting well deep into drafts. This is what we have to have done and do. From what I have seen of our recent draft picks so far, I am optimistic about our future and believe in the coming years we will look back at these recent drafts with praise, and I have no doubt adding Scully and another young talent will only make the chances of the club winning the elusive 13th flag a firmer reality.

But in the end, we need a premiership quality list, not merely a few premiership quality players.

Good post. I agree and feel the same. But with regard to your last sentence, in order to build a premiership quality list you sometimes need a few quality players (and leaders).

Therefore, in your last sentence of the previous paragraph........that would then make sense. Do you know what I mean?

Just on a side note, does anyone else feel in a roundabout way that we actually got a priority pick in last years draft?

What combo would you take if you had the option now in hindsight. Watts/ Natunui or Watts/Jurrah?

Yeah, Jurrah is definitely an excellent catch. We deserve him.

Our priority pick was before the second round last year.

It's been well documented - had Carlton beaten us in 2007 Rd22, we might have Watts, Naitanui & Jurrah.

Emma Quayle the "the draft expert" underestimates the marketting value of good draft picks.

Sure Adelaide have built a decent side on no early picks - however, who's young face could they use to promote the club for prospective members (not as if they need them anyway).

It's comparing apples and oranges, a side like Melbourne is in a highly competitive market with 7 other AFL clubs in the same town.

Melbourne needs to use the early draft pick as a promotional/markerting tool to instill hope and passion for the club from its members, and supporters who may be considering signing up.

Agree. Good post.

Edited July 20, 2009 by High Tower

[titan_uranus 22,665]

1. There are 6 games to go, not 7; and at best I see us winning 2, which would mean missing a top 3 pick by one meaningless win. But we'll see. And no, she's right, there aren't any guarantees. But obviously the percentages favour the very early picks as being potential stars. Do I need to name them all for you. I can and will on request. And Scully most certainly will be a star. FFS, he'd be our best mid now.

This is the issue. Top picks don't guarantee a star player. But the best chance of getting a star player is with those top picks. So we do ourselves the best chance of winning a premiership by getting the best crack at picking a star out of the draft this year.

By winning more than 4 games this year we won't be giving ourselves the best chance to climb up the ladder. That doesn't mean we won't win a premiership in a few years. It means that we aren't giving ourselves the best chance to do so, and that's why most people want to see us win no more than once more for the rest of the year.

[old55 21,446]

I don't just want a better list than we have, I want to have the best list in the AFL. We haven't had that for 45 years.

I don't want to win games and play finals, I want to win the flag. We haven't done that for 45 years.

Three more tough weeks, that's it.

[H_T 2,941]

I don't just want a better list than we have, I want to have the best list in the AFL. We haven't had that for 45 years.

I don't want to win games and play finals, I want to win the flag. We haven't done that for 45 years.

Three more tough weeks, that's it.

3 long weeks too!

[Guest]

1. There are 6 games to go, not 7; and at best I see us winning 2, which would mean missing a top 3 pick by one meaningless win. But we'll see. And no, she's right, there aren't any guarantees. But obviously the percentages favour the very early picks as being potential stars. Do I need to name them all for you. I can and will on request. And Scully most certainly will be a star. FFS, he'd be our best mid now.

2. Adelaide haven't won a flag in a decade. Essendon may or may not get close to a flag. It's the chance at a flag that some of us crave, not just being "a good team". You say Adelaide "are consistently at the top end of the ladder". So what ? Show me their flag. Have a look at the top 6 thread. It will give you an idea where the best players come from. It's predominantly early picks and first rounders.

3. So we won two in a row. Big deal. We beat Port and West Coast at the G. We virtually always beat those teams at the G. Even when we're [censored]. Some supporters are very easily pleased. We're currently crud and the one thing designed to help us, the draft, is being massively compromised for years. We do have some young talent coming through, but we need to stock pile as many as we can while we can. The AFL hands out priority picks for a reason. They give them to teams that need them. And we bloody well need them.

THe point about Adelaide was that you can get good players from other places in the draft, apart from priority picks. Even if we win 5 games we will still get a top 5 pick, ensuring a very good player. The point about Essendon was that they are travelling (at the moment) just as well as Carlton, without anywhere near the draft picks Carlton had. Time will tell if Essendon are capable of winning a flag or not but atm they are doing well without a team of high draft picks. I agree that we need as much young talent as we can get, but if Grimes and Jurrah keep winning us games, is that such a bad thing?

[demon3165 2,012]

Leigh Matthews says you need every area in place to win a flag but he said if you dont have the quality of players on your list then the other areas will not cover the most important ingredient to success.

They already had a private deal with Judd who is partlially paid by Visy. They had worked out the sums and know they wanted Kruzer with PP but had to give a high 1st round pick plus Kennedy to get him. They tanked. When Ratten took over as coach they were in front in a number of games at half time and mysteriously there best players were rested for most of the 2nd half. And somehow they did not seem to tag TJ at any time during the whole of the R22 match.

Rhino, how many games have we given teams a start then stayed with them throughout the game? reverse tanking eh?

[Hannabal 4]

I agree that we need as much young talent as we can get, but if Grimes and Jurrah keep winning us games, is that such a bad thing?

Yeah, it is.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Rhino, how many games have we given teams a start then stayed with them throughout the game? reverse tanking eh?

Might have something to do with MF not being good enough. And in some cases the opposition after half time/quarter time taking the foot off the gas.

However, in many of those games the work ethic and effort cant be faulted...the skill level can.

[Sir Why You Little 34,708]

Perhaps, so, but taking Brendan Fevola off against the Pies, when he was smashing it up in the latter part of 2007 was certainly tanking.

Exactly. I remember that day well. Made me sick in the guts. In Round 11 They Smashed Port Adel & then did not win another game for 2007.

They Managed their "Tank" to perfection. Then Riley went to work for them after coaching Melbourne to an unwanted win.

Carltank wrote the Modern day book on the Art of Tanking. Still think our young kids are better than theirs though.

We need that Gun Midfielder & the new Gym Facility

[demon3165 2,012]

Might have something to do with MF not being good enough. And in some cases the opposition after half time/quarter time taking the foot off the gas.

However, in many of those games the work ethic and effort cant be faulted...the skill level can.

Yes we are not good enough at this stage, but this year has been a hell of a better one compared to last year, for a club that has done a total rebuild from top to bottom things will get better as each year passes.

[Binmans PA 26,302]

Still think our young kids are better than theirs though.

We need that Gun Midfielder & the new Gym Facility

I'm with you there, why you little, but I'm probably a little biased, as I dislike Carlton immensly.

[Sir Why You Little 34,708]

I'm with you there, why you little, but I'm probably a little biased, as I dislike Carlton immensly.

Don't Worry Adam I Hate Those Phuukz with a passion filled with Bile! Mark Riley really deserves a late night visit by a few thousand Demon Supporters.

He Shafted us Big Time.

[Einstein 1]

Good post. I agree and feel the same. But with regard to your last sentence, in order to build a premiership quality list you sometimes need a few quality players (and leaders).

Therefore, in your last sentence of the previous paragraph........that would then make sense. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. Like I said we need to develop a premiership quality list and I do believe adding Scully and another quality player will help do just that. We need some elite talent aided by a strong supporting group. There's no doubt about that. And hopefully we have some potentially elite players already on our list.

Michael Jordan, as good as he was, couldn't win a championship until the Chicago Bulls developed a quality supporting group. I know it's basketball and it's apples and oranges, but the point is, I think we need a mix of the great and the good, not the great and the ordinary. I think Carlton are currently an example of a list that have some elite players, or at least potentially elite players but a very ordinary group beyond that. I have my doubts that Carlton will win a premiership before Chris Judd retires. I don't want to be like them. I don't want to be an ordinary team with some very good players on it that will play finals and that's about all.

I don't want to see Tom Scully playing out his career like Robbie Flower, being a marvel with stuff all team success.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yes we are not good enough at this stage, but this year has been a hell of a better one compared to last year, for a club that has done a total rebuild from top to bottom things will get better as each year passes.

Could not agree more.

[Roost It 1,434]

I don't want to see Tom Scully playing out his career like Robbie Flower, being a marvel with stuff all team success.

Tom Scully would be joining one of the most exciting young lists in the competition. This scenario is simply not going to happen.

[rpfc 27,591]

Yes we are not good enough at this stage, but this year has been a hell of a better one compared to last year, for a club that has done a total rebuild from top to bottom things will get better as each year passes.

Agree.

Rewind to after the Lions game and there was nothing but handwringing and prophecies of doom. Some said we haven't progressed at all, and anyone would know that was utter nonsense if they went to the footy regularly last year (we lost 7 games by 10 goals or more).

It's amazing what a few decent performances can do.

Now let's play the kids, put in a few more decent performances, and get ready for next year.

[Einstein 1]

Tom Scully would be joining one of the most exciting young lists in the competition. This scenario is simply not going to happen.

I agree. I don't think it will happen. Going by what we've seen so far of our recent draft selections, I think we've assembled a great collection of young talent.

Strange days are before us right now. The next six weeks are going to be an awkward experience to say the least.

But great days are coming. It's simply exciting to think about.

[H_T 2,941]

Tom Scully would be joining one of the most exciting young lists in the competition. This scenario is simply not going to happen.

I agree. I don't think it will happen.

It's not going to happen?

[donny williams no 25 0]

So what, getting better than bottom side isn't that big a deal. We are considerably better than last year, but still a bottom 4 side. What will it take to get top 4, let alone premier?

Scully AND Trengrove from the draft would give us the best chance of that.

I don't want us to tank, but nor do I want us to win games that we shouldn't, on form, win. Which can happen for all sorts of reasons. Opposition tanks on us (a la Carltank a few years ago), or we play our current best team in the meaningless last few games rather than playing players who will get most out of the run FOR NEXT YEAR, or we don't manage injured players properly (get them treated & rested early for a good pre-season), or we draw on some emotional reserves to get us up for a big-hearted win against another jaded team... all of which is silly and means we increase our chances of being a good middle order team for the next decade or so.

Nope, I don't entirely agree with Quayle (good football writer that she is). I don't want us to tank, but I defintely don't want us winning games that on form we shouldn't.

Which means only one more win this year!

'Don't manage injured players properly?

I absolutely agree that to play one's best players who may be struggling with injury, would be silly--send them away until pre-season. I would also agree that playing senior players who won't be with us next year would be silly--but who are they? Only the skipper?I doubt Wheatley will retire and neither should he. Robbo? Perhaps.Our position is entirely different to that which Sheedy was describing--they've always had heaps of old players at Essendon during Sheedy's reign [which I think was a largely unsuccessful reign having regard to the money, players and other resources at his disposal]

Neither the sending away of the injured, nor the non-playing of the retirees is tanking. It wasn't tanking when chaps such as Bizzell, Holland Doggie Brown Yze or White were played in the reserves leading up to their retirement.

But where does that leave us now?

Who can be sent way injured or dropped because he's going to retire?[Apart from Junior] Can we simply announce that Green Bruce Davey Warnock, Jamar, Jurrah--and whoever else-- won't play any more this year? I don't think so.

And I'm not ware of anyone playing at present who should be rested [for the remainder of the year] on health grounds.

So Hannabal etc--don't just tell us of your most favourable outcome--tell us how we get there!For everone[i think] agrees that once the team runs out on the ground it must give it everything it's got.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

It wasn't tanking when chaps such as Bizzell, Holland Doggie Brown Yze or White were played in the reserves leading up to their retirement.

Bizzell, Brown, Yze and White were all played in the AFL prior to their retirements.

And I'm not ware of anyone playing at present who should be rested [for the remainder of the year] on health grounds.

If you believe his devoted supporters, McLean is injured....when he does not play well

[old55 21,446]

If you believe his devoted supporters, McLean is injured....when he does not play well

I'm sticking fat with McLean.

The ONLY reason he wont make it is because of injury.

Edited July 21, 2009 by old55