Dean Bailey as coach?

[rpfc 28,520]

a bit unsure, l think he's a great orator but don't know about motivator and IMO the juries still out

The jury hasn't been assembled yet.

We are at the start of the crime here.

Before the opening credits on Law & Order...

Miles to go before we sleep... or pass judgement.

[demoniac 1,333]

I do listen to people who know something about football, unfortunately I don't find many on this website that fall into that category.

I'm old enough to have endured that dark ages of the 70's, when I did go to the football and accepted honourable losses, simply because watching Robbie Flower was worth the admittance.

What Hannabal wrote was spot on, but I tend to take the pessimistic view, rather than see things through rose coloured glasses. That's what 27 years of supporting Melbourne does to you.

I am also old enough to have endured the dark days of the mid to late 1970s. Can clearly remember watching World of Sport as a 7 year old and being not to impressed by our coach Denis Jones. Went to the game in which Fitzroy kicked a then record score against us. Went to the 1988 Grand Final with my Hawthorn supporting brother. Yep it was great growing up in Hawthorn in the 70s and 80s as a Dees fan. At St Dom's there were only 2 other Dees fans in my year - where are you now John and Trevor? At St Kevin's there was Joe and I. The 2000 Granny was also alot of fun. It is almost sad to write that the highlight of my almost 38 years of being a Dees fan is the euphoric feeling I felt at the Dees making the finals for the first time in my lifetme as I walked over the bridge from the Western Oval after the last round of 87.

And yes it can make you pessimistic - if you let it. But I am finally convinced that the tide is starting to turn off field and that we are committed to a full rebuild on the field. And yep, players like Dunn and Sylvia need to get a move on but they do have talent. I think our years of failure tend to dispose some to looking for the weaknesses of players whilst disregarding their strengths. Dunn showed promise as a half forward when he first came into the team. He is now older, fitter, stronger and has had a good footy education over the last few years. Thats a fair reason to say there is a good chance he will step up. Looking through rose coloured glasses? No. Just not automatically assigning the sins of the past 45 years to the current coaches, recruiters and list.

[H_T 3,049]

I am also old enough to have endured the dark days of the mid to late 1970s. Can clearly remember watching World of Sport as a 7 year old and being not to impressed by our coach Denis Jones. Went to the game in which Fitzroy kicked a then record score against us. Went to the 1988 Grand Final with my Hawthorn supporting brother. Yep it was great growing up in Hawthorn in the 70s and 80s as a Dees fan. At St Dom's there were only 2 other Dees fans in my year - where are you now John and Trevor? At St Kevin's there was Joe and I. The 2000 Granny was also alot of fun. It is almost sad to write that the highlight of my almost 38 years of being a Dees fan is the euphoric feeling I felt at the Dees making the finals for the first time in my lifetme as I walked over the bridge from the Western Oval after the last round of 87.

And yes it can make you pessimistic - if you let it. But I am finally convinced that the tide is starting to turn off field and that we are committed to a full rebuild on the field. And yep, players like Dunn and Sylvia need to get a move on but they do have talent. I think our years of failure tend to dispose some to looking for the weaknesses of players whilst disregarding their strengths. Dunn showed promise as a half forward when he first came into the team. He is now older, fitter, stronger and has had a good footy education over the last few years. Thats a fair reason to say there is a good chance he will step up. Looking through rose coloured glasses? No. Just not automatically assigning the sins of the past 45 years to the current coaches, recruiters and list.

Good post demoniac. I had the same euphoric feeling in '87 leaving the Western Oval that day too.

PS. Mo64? - A query. You say 27 years of supporting Melbourne, yet you also said you endured the dark ages of the 70's when you went to the football....can you clarify this?? Or is it my maths??

[Weedster 174]

a bit unsure, l think he's a great orator but don't know about motivator and IMO the juries still out

Agree - his match-day coaching, in my opinion, leaves much to be desired - too many avalanches against us for mine.. :angry:

[mo64 5,875]

Good post demoniac. I had the same euphoric feeling in '87 leaving the Western Oval that day too.

PS. Mo64? - A query. You say 27 years of supporting Melbourne, yet you also said you endured the dark ages of the 70's when you went to the football....can you clarify this?? Or is it my maths??

Ha, ha, no it's my maths. See what the club's done to me!!!!

[Guest petjud]

"Not many posters have a knowledge of football on this board".....what a sweeping statement.....Whispering Jack, Rhino, and a couple of others must be rolling around their keyboards.................seeing that we are doing it by numbers.....this year is my 32nd year of watching football.....and I was in my twenties when I started, so not a young kid to be dazzled by a full forward kicking a bag.

We need to give DB a chancem, I like a lot ot others expect to see improvement by the end of the year and the next, I am sure Jim Stynes and Cameron Scwab expect the same thing...and they will reassess DB's abilities if the improvement is not there.......as we will.

If the backline we have at the moment is any indication of the type of young player we have to look forward to..I say bring it on.....

.DB is tinkering and testing where he can...but he also needs all his cattle, at the moment we have about 13 not ready to play at AFL level through injury, fitness, rookie etc

If you look at the poll result you will see most of the non-knowledgable posters actually think he is doing a job, obviously the NO's are the only ones who know anything about football

[H_T 3,049]

First time poster here. But long time Demon Fan and member.

Just thought I'd direct all "Bailey Bashers" to an article by Leigh Matthews on AFL.com

Here is what I thought was a key point

"If I had to give a percentage, a successful team is 80 per cent playing ability and 20 per cent what a coach does with them. Of the coach’s contribution, nine tenths is getting the basics right and one tenth would be devising a game plan that maximises your strengths.

The longer I coached the more I became convinced of this fact."

Full article can be viewed here.

The truth about coaching

Great article by lethal. If Bails really loves - as he says he does - the development and teaching side of things and drilling each player on his tasks as in tackling techniques, etc. I think we're on the right path. As Lethal says, the basics are very important. All we need is the players talent..

[norwood_demon 196]

Like a few other posters on this thread, I am a middle-aged Demon supporter who was just too young to appreciate 1964 and who has been through the anguish of the last four decades (brightened only by the miraculous Robert Flower and the occasional better season). If I live my three-score-&-ten, I figure that I have 3-4 re-builds/premiership windows left in me. I am very happy "to use one-up" on Dean Bailey. In fact, I have more faith in DB than any coach since John Northey. He is most definitely a "development coach", who has not had the cattle to determine his match-day coaching. IMO, he has not made a major mistake yet in his 1+ years. Young players are developing, older players have been appropriately moved-on, and the backline (the foundation of a premiership) is potentially among the best in the league (it gets plenty of practice!). The forward line is a disaster and we lack skillful quick on-ballers. The 2008 & 2009 drafts should fix those deficiencies!

My criteria for team selections or judging Bailey are not the Richmond game on Sunday or any other result in 2009, but where will each player play in the final series of 2012-2015 and are we nearer our long-term goal. No quick fixes! No rushing Watts et al for some dubious and meaningless short-term gains. By taking this careful methodical approach, Bailey is jeopardising his own position and thereby showing commendable integrity and insight. I would really encourage the Demonland Forumites to show the same patience. Geelong and Hawthorn both took similar long-term approaches and the final results are obvious. In fact, I would suggest that the Club should show the same faith and integrity, and stop the mindless innuendo in the media that will come with mounting losses in 2009, by extending Bailey's contract before the end of this year so that he has a guaranteed 4-5 years to see this project through.

In short, MFC supporters need to be like an on-baller charging through the middle. We need to look-up to the distant options not at our feet.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

I do listen to people who know something about football, unfortunately I don't find many on this website that fall into that category.

I'm old enough to have endured that dark ages of the 70's, when I did go to the football and accepted honourable losses, simply because watching Robbie Flower was worth the admittance.

What Hannabal wrote was spot on, but I tend to take the pessimistic view, rather than see things through rose coloured glasses. That's what 27 years of supporting Melbourne does to you.

Yes i too remember the '70's when we never ever played september even though i went to all the Grand Finals....

Bailey has by far the Toughest Job in AFL footy at the Mo. He must be given time. We as Supporters have got to stick Fat, as i doubt any of us would do a better Job.Bailey has had numerous occasions to "lose it" in Public after MFC performances over the last 12 Months, but he has kept it together.

That said I Believe we can TRULY beat Richmond this week & i hope those boys know it to. Dean Baily must demand a win this coming sunday. The team has been training since last October.

I will not accept defeat this week. The Tigers are Mentally weak & we must be tough over 4 Q's

[Demonic_Inferno 17]

By taking this careful methodical approach, Bailey is jeopardising his own position and thereby showing commendable integrity and insight. I would really encourage the Demonland Forumites to show the same patience.

Great post Norwood Demon, this part in particular.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

Like a few other posters on this thread, I am a middle-aged Demon supporter who was just too young to appreciate 1964 and who has been through the anguish of the last four decades (brightened only by the miraculous Robert Flower and the occasional better season). If I live my three-score-&-ten, I figure that I have 3-4 re-builds/premiership windows left in me. I am very happy "to use one-up" on Dean Bailey. In fact, I have more faith in DB than any coach since John Northey. He is most definitely a "development coach", who has not had the cattle to determine his match-day coaching. IMO, he has not made a major mistake yet in his 1+ years. Young players are developing, older players have been appropriately moved-on, and the backline (the foundation of a premiership) is potentially among the best in the league (it gets plenty of practice!). The forward line is a disaster and we lack skillful quick on-ballers. The 2008 & 2009 drafts should fix those deficiencies!

My criteria for team selections or judging Bailey are not the Richmond game on Sunday or any other result in 2009, but where will each player play in the final series of 2012-2015 and are we nearer our long-term goal. No quick fixes! No rushing Watts et al for some dubious and meaningless short-term gains. By taking this careful methodical approach, Bailey is jeopardising his own position and thereby showing commendable integrity and insight. I would really encourage the Demonland Forumites to show the same patience. Geelong and Hawthorn both took similar long-term approaches and the final results are obvious. In fact, I would suggest that the Club should show the same faith and integrity, and stop the mindless innuendo in the media that will come with mounting losses in 2009, by extending Bailey's contract before the end of this year so that he has a guaranteed 4-5 years to see this project through.

In short, MFC supporters need to be like an on-baller charging through the middle. We need to look-up to the distant options not at our feet.

This Post should be written in STONE. Well said Norwood. (Go the Red Legs-wish we had snared that Taylor Walker, Bloody Tragedy seeing him run around in a Froot Loops Jumper!)

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Yes i too remember the '70's when we never ever played september even though i went to all the Grand Finals....

Bailey has by far the Toughest Job in AFL footy at the Mo. He must be given time. We as Supporters have got to stick Fat, as i doubt any of us would do a better Job.Bailey has had numerous occasions to "lose it" in Public after MFC performances over the last 12 Months, but he has kept it together.

That said I Believe we can TRULY beat Richmond this week & i hope those boys know it to. Dean Baily must demand a win this coming sunday. The team has been training since last October.

I will not accept defeat this week. The Tigers are Mentally weak & we must be tough over 4 Q's

Another great post and I am with you all the way with this one WYL.

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

You people getting stuck into mo64 are ridiculous.

If you say that Bailey is a great (or poor) coach (for development/game day/PR/whatever) then you should be prepared to back up your statements.

Thankfully, most of you realise that it is too early to judge. But if you are going to judge him on as a development coach over the last 2 years, then it is hardly fair to be selective.

I'm surprised that mo is still yet to be accused of being Neale Daniher in disguise.

P.S. Sorry for taking your side mo, I realise it does nothing for your credibility on here.

[stevenDEMON 0]

Is it still to early to say we made the wrong choice of coach?

Game plan does not seem to be working (If there is one)

Is he the master of development coaching that some think he is? To me he seems to be getting as much as any other Joe blow would be getting out of the players.

Is he taking us in the right direction

Dean still does not seem like the right choice.

PS. you can merge this with the other thread if you want. I would like to see if the poll results would still be the same too.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Is it still to early to say we made the wrong choice of coach?

Game plan does not seem to be working (If there is one)

Is he the master of development coaching that some think he is? To me he seems to be getting as much as any other Joe blow would be getting out of the players.

Is he taking us in the right direction

Dean still does not seem like the right choice.

PS. you can merge this with the other thread if you want. I would like to see if the poll results would still be the same too.

No, we made the right choice. If you were going to List Manage, to build the talent available to aid the resurrection of your club, one that nearly went out of existence, how would you do it???

[jnrmac 20,104]

The worry for me is that the senior players have not developed into more consistent players. When I think about this my criticism of the past few years is that we have lacked true leadership. Junior prior to this year has shown it but we are lacking. The only bloke to show it this year from the senior brigade is Green. Maybe Davey as well. I would include Sylvia if he can keep going for the second half of the year.

Is that the coach? Is that lack of success culture? Ultimately the coach cops it if these senior players don't perform. DB has been good at dropping them if they are not playing to his plan (whatever it is!). But the team can become unsettled and thats the trade off.

Players in my view that are running on the spot (no improvement) are: McLean, Bruce, Miller, Rivers, Bell, Jones

PLayers going backwards: Bartram, PJ, Whelan, Dunn.

The improvement we are seeing and yes despite the past two weeks we are seeing it is coming from our junior players:

Warnock, Frawley, Morton, etc These guys have stepped up but then again you would expect them to. The new guys like Bennel Jetta, CHeney, Watts are going to make plenty of mistakes. And at this time of year they also get tired.

[Weedster 174]

Is it still to early to say we made the wrong choice of coach?

Game plan does not seem to be working (If there is one)

Is he the master of development coaching that some think he is? To me he seems to be getting as much as any other Joe blow would be getting out of the players.

Is he taking us in the right direction

Dean still does not seem like the right choice.

PS. you can merge this with the other thread if you want. I would like to see if the poll results would still be the same too.

I might well be in the minority but I think you're spot on.

Of the list he took on :

Sylvia, Warnock Miller, Frawley & Garland (before injury) have progressed (as they should )

Bate, Dunne, Bartram, Jones, Mclean, Jamar, Maloney have shown marginal improvement ( which we are entitled to expect after 3 or 4 years in the system ) or stagnated

Bell, Pettard, Newton have gone backward

Davey, Green, Junior, Bruce continue to hold us together

Wheels & Robbo are on their last legs

Anyone can introduce new players - all good stuff - but I'm not seeing a game plan emerging. the fact is we have won 4 games in the past 33 - none of which were convincing bar perhaps the Eagles match last year when they were well and truly driving the Sherman tank

This year is again a write-off - all we can do is look forward to the draft picks`(hopefully we won't stuff that up ) - but next year there must be significant improvement to match the strides being made off the ground. :angry:

[CarnTheDees 52]

To me coaching contains three major fields: List management, Player development and Game-Day control.

So far I would say that list management-wise Bailey has done fairly well but he's also done exactly what needed to be done. Gotten rid of some dead wood and recruited midfielders and forwards to fill the holes.

In terms of player development it is difficult to judge. Yes, there are some players who seem to be stagnating (Dunn, Bate, Bell) but we do have some of our younger players who are stepping up, especially Sylvia and Frawley, and to a lesser extent Warnock. The big issue is that none of the 'core' players that DB inherited (Bruce, Green, Miller, Jones, McLean etc) have taken the next step to becoming really dominant. The exception is Moloney who has lifted under DB to become our most influential onballer.

Game-Day control consists of putting a strong, consistent game plan into action, as well as managing things like team selections and match-ups. So far I have seen nothing at all encouraging about the way Bailey is teaching this team how he wants them to play footy. A major lack of intensity at the ball and the man, over-possession by handball, pushing the forwards outside the 50 consistently leaving a 1-on-3 or 2-on-4 inside our 50, massive numbers behind the ball, and players milling in the area 30 metres in front of the ball carrier clogging up the space. These are not things that can be directly attributed to our "young list", this is guys playing football to a set of instructions that isn't working.

This is the area that has me most concerned about Bailey's future. Any talk of extending his contract this season is massively premature, lets wait until he shows us that he can win some games.

[stevenDEMON 0]

To me coaching contains three major fields: List management, Player development and Game-Day control.

So far I would say that list management-wise Bailey has done fairly well but he's also done exactly what needed to be done. Gotten rid of some dead wood and recruited midfielders and forwards to fill the holes.

In terms of player development it is difficult to judge. Yes, there are some players who seem to be stagnating (Dunn, Bate, Bell) but we do have some of our younger players who are stepping up, especially Sylvia and Frawley, and to a lesser extent Warnock. The big issue is that none of the 'core' players that DB inherited (Bruce, Green, Miller, Jones, McLean etc) have taken the next step to becoming really dominant. The exception is Moloney who has lifted under DB to become our most influential onballer.

Game-Day control consists of putting a strong, consistent game plan into action, as well as managing things like team selections and match-ups. So far I have seen nothing at all encouraging about the way Bailey is teaching this team how he wants them to play footy. A major lack of intensity at the ball and the man, over-possession by handball, pushing the forwards outside the 50 consistently leaving a 1-on-3 or 2-on-4 inside our 50, massive numbers behind the ball, and players milling in the area 30 metres in front of the ball carrier clogging up the space. These are not things that can be directly attributed to our "young list", this is guys playing football to a set of instructions that isn't working.

This is the area that has me most concerned about Bailey's future. Any talk of extending his contract this season is massively premature, lets wait until he shows us that he can win some games.

Yeah thats spot on.

I would hope they would not extend his contract this year (maybe not at all)

Also it may be to early to judge DB, but i am willing to wear egg on my face if i am wrong. Some people sit on the fence for to long. Criticism is not going to hurt DB one bit, we as supporters need to keep the pressure on everyone at the club just as they do to us when we are late to renew our memberships.

[G'borough Demon 0]

To me coaching contains three major fields: List management, Player development and Game-Day control.

So far I would say that list management-wise Bailey has done fairly well but he's also done exactly what needed to be done. Gotten rid of some dead wood and recruited midfielders and forwards to fill the holes.

In terms of player development it is difficult to judge. Yes, there are some players who seem to be stagnating (Dunn, Bate, Bell) but we do have some of our younger players who are stepping up, especially Sylvia and Frawley, and to a lesser extent Warnock. The big issue is that none of the 'core' players that DB inherited (Bruce, Green, Miller, Jones, McLean etc) have taken the next step to becoming really dominant. The exception is Moloney who has lifted under DB to become our most influential onballer.

Game-Day control consists of putting a strong, consistent game plan into action, as well as managing things like team selections and match-ups. So far I have seen nothing at all encouraging about the way Bailey is teaching this team how he wants them to play footy. A major lack of intensity at the ball and the man, over-possession by handball, pushing the forwards outside the 50 consistently leaving a 1-on-3 or 2-on-4 inside our 50, massive numbers behind the ball, and players milling in the area 30 metres in front of the ball carrier clogging up the space. These are not things that can be directly attributed to our "young list", this is guys playing football to a set of instructions that isn't working.

This is the area that has me most concerned about Bailey's future. Any talk of extending his contract this season is massively premature, lets wait until he shows us that he can win some games.

Could not have put it any better myself. I wonder if DB's game plan has stopped the core players you mention above (other than green) taking that next step to be really dominent??? I'm with you CarnTheDees, if they don't show any improvement in playing as team by the end of the season DB should be shown the door.

[CarnTheDees 52]

Could not have put it any better myself. I wonder if DB's game plan has stopped the core players you mention above (other than green) taking that next step to be really dominent??? I'm with you CarnTheDees, if they don't show any improvement in playing as team by the end of the season DB should be shown the door.

I'm not suggesting he should be sacked at the end of this year, but by this time next season the excuses relating to lack of experience will be starting to wear thin. He should be allowed to see out his three year deal, but if we're in this same position next year, losing every week and playing an ugly, disjointed, negative brand of football, then the board should be looking around for a replacement for 2011.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I'm not suggesting he should be sacked at the end of this year, but by this time next season the excuses relating to lack of experience will be starting to wear thin. He should be allowed to see out his three year deal, but if we're in this same position next year, losing every week and playing an ugly, disjointed, negative brand of football, then the board should be looking around for a replacement for 2011.

Agreed.

[rpfc 28,520]

But was three years ever enough to turn around the list he was given?

I have already said that finals aren't out of the question next year but also 15 losses isn't out of the question.

This is why I believe another year should be put on his contract at the end of this year.

I just think that, with the best talent being out of the past 2 drafts (Morton, Grimes, Maric, Cheney, Martin, Watts, Blease, Strauss, Bennell, Jetta, and Jurrah) and the next draft (possibly Scully), 2010 shouldn't be a make-or-break year.

As good as this talent looks, they might not begin to impose themselves on games until 2011. That is not to say they won't contribute, but 10+ wins requires this group of players to do more than contribute.

[H_T 3,049]

But was three years ever enough to turn around the list he was given?

I have already said that finals aren't out of the question next year but also 15 losses isn't out of the question.

This is why I believe another year should be put on his contract at the end of this year.

I just think that, with the best talent being out of the past 2 drafts (Morton, Grimes, Maric, Cheney, Martin, Watts, Blease, Strauss, Bennell, Jetta, and Jurrah) and the next draft (possibly Scully), 2010 shouldn't be a make-or-break year.

As good as this talent looks, they might not begin to impose themselves on games until 2011. That is not to say they won't contribute, but 10+ wins requires this group of players to do more than contribute.

rpfc, I agree with you to a certain extent, IMO the three years is probably only just enough time to turn around the list he was given. Some would argue it's plenty of time, others would argue not enough time and the list hasn't been turned over enough.

Personally, I don't think an extension to the contract should be given this year. A contract is a contract. Three years. End of story. If for some reason next year there is good progress, I think it an extension could be looked at next year in the mid season review. Otherwise Bailey can see out his three years and a decision can be made at the conclusion of season 2010. Prudent decisions need to continue for the Mfc.

[CarnTheDees 52]

I'm not calling for a flag after three years, or even to be playing finals, but three years is more than enough time to get the team playing how you want them to play. And with the team that he will have by the end of 2010, and the small amount of experience that most of the good young players will have by that stage we should be off the bottom of the ladder.

I don't ncecessarily think that results or ladder position should be used as the measuring stick but put it this way: if we finish in the bottom 2 in 2010 (and we haven't had a horror run with injuries) then he should not be re-signed. And if we're 13th/14th but not looking like we're making decent steps forward then serious questions should be asked.

But really I'd be more interested in judging him on the team's overall style of play, structure, attitude, teamwork and fitness. If these areas don't seem to be heading in the right direction then we should be looking elsewhere.