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McDonald is a bit like Jones in that he has improved each year. He is fiercely competitive and a student of the game as shown by his study tour of U.S colleges during the off season. Obviously his decision making and disposal need further improvement but he is unlikely to finish his career and wonder if he could have tried harder. He is disciplined and I bet one of the first picked by the coaches each week. A fair chance also to make the leadership group this year And let's face it if he hadn't got injured Rd 1 against the Saints, Riewoldt wouldn't have had free reign and we would have won. He is still only 22 years old and with 60 games under his belt should be now entering some of the best football years of his life So yes I'm one of those happy show Tom some love

Do you get a good view from your high horse. If I cross the line with a question, the players tell me so, I have a really good relationship with most of them, having talked to them at other things besides training I didn't lay a finger on Michie never mind probe him, when players are in the rehab group I try and find out why, most tell me, if they don't that's cool, Viv said nothing so I left it at that, he certainly wasn't upset. Dave Misson will tell me why a player is missing, he even gave me advance warning about the run up Andersons Hill so I could get some good pictures for Twitter, the players like to favourite them If the players tell me something that I consider not the norm, I ask their permission to quote on here, most do, Howie with his contract, Dawes with his fitness etc etc I speak to the players once their training is finished, other supporters there do as well Every player I asked for a time for the 3k volunteered it Chris Salem loves soccer, he has finished training, it is his lunch time, we have a chat about a shared interest I even had a chat with Max King yesterday in Swan St when I bumped into him whilst myself and lady were out shopping To answer a couple of questions above, Howe was still with the defence, Vandenberg wasn't there this week, he looks ok been in rehab group so hasn't been doing much, Frost is big, strong and fast, reckon will have a real crack during NAB Cup, he is really happy being back in Melbourne, and feels part of the club already

I just read Ben Newton's article on club website, where he reiterated what he had told me about the similarities with Port training One thing I have noticed and it may be a Roos thing, very minor but shows the new mindset, and after viewing vision of both Bombers and Saints training on the telly. Once a drill has finished, particularly a running drill, no player is allowed to sit on their haunches or lay down, immediately they get shouted at or another player goes across to keep them upright, seen this with Jamar and King, Viney and Harmes and a few others Other good bits from training, Bernie Vince presser, the club had 10 guys under 10 minutes which is elite, but Bernie says it counts for nothing if it doesn't translate to game day. Me thinking that the ball movement and kicking at one training was looking very good and Ben Mathews telling me it was 'ordinary', high standards Justin (his surname escapes me), the Casey coach, being at most of the training sessions, learning from the best Shannon Byrnes being a Casey player and coach, total professional and will ensure consistent standards on the field there as well The total professionalism in everything, no more complaints from anybody about development, everybody from Roos to the property guys has a piece of paper dealing exactly what will occur during a particular session Watching Jess Hogan, Jack Viney, Daniel Cross and Jack Grimes train, two young guns and two highly respected guys leading the way

Mate, as an interstate supporter I can't make it to watch the boys train. Your training reports that you share with us are much appreciated, you obviously have good relationships within the club which allows you to have conversations with the players and coaches, all which you can keep to yourself, but you kindly choose to share some of those conversations and information on here with us, take it from me mate, people like you keep a lot of others interested in the club.

Agree totally, JVF. I, too, am interstate, and very much appreciate Saty's regular reports and comments re his banter with the players. Absolutely nothing wrong with it, and the constant sniping at him frankly pisses me off.

Slightly off topic but slightly the same, last year in a meeting at work I suggested we replace some of our supervisors with life size cardboard cutouts. I stated we could save money and get the same output. It wasn't well received.

I did. When Bailey was coaching it looked like the local side down the park. They yelled a lot, dropped balls all over the place and generally stuffed around. Neeld got rid of that crap and tried to make them act like they were professional athletes. Unfortunately he turned out to have no people skills and alienated pretty much the entire list by being too blunt and harsh. Roos came in and said basically he same things as Neeld, followed a lot of the same strategies, but he has the people skills and the experience to sell it to the players and the supporters. It's still the same mantra of get them fitter and bring in some older, bigger and more experienced players to balance the young list, but Roos managed to get better quality imports and got the playing group behind him.

Irony.

The bloke really pisses me off. Having to hear him pedalling the I am Geelong line and see him pumping up the cats on social media is such a slap in the face to Melbourne supporters. Different if he had of gone quietly and been humble but he is carrying on like an excited first year player and blowing smoke up the arse of the Geelong Footy Club, just as it did when he first came to the MFC! The bloke is a fraud. He has severe personality disorder. Rumoured to have nailed a past MFC players girlfriend while engaged too. Love to know more to that story. The very fact he hides behind the veil of depression makes me sick. I saw photos of him smashing booze with the MFC players supposedly during the height of his depression. He lied to Brisbane and then did the same to us. No well wishes from me. I admire people giving it to him on social media. The weak dog never answers any questions. Just replies with "like you'd know" "coz you understand my situation" blah blah. Just a big load of B.S.

N. Jones, Dawes, Watts and Hogan didn't run. The top 23 all finished within one minute of each other: 1. T-Mac (6 seconds ahead of Bail) 2. Bail (5 seconds ahead of Jordie) 3. Jordie (3 seconds ahead of Grimes) 4. Grimes (7 seconds ahead of JKH) 5. JKH (was stoked with himself, probable PB. Finished 2 seconds ahead of Cross) 6. Crossy (filthy at himself, or just exhausted) 7. Howey (finished right after Cross, along with the next 5 in quick succession) 8. White 9. Stretch 10. Viney 11. Lamumba 12. Newton (elated at finish line, probable PB) 13. Dunny 14. M. Jones 15. Toumpas 16. Salem 17. Vince 18. Brayshaw 19. Harmes 20. O-Mac 21. Pedo 22. Tyson 23. Jetta 20 seconds later were Kent, Michie, Fitzpatrick, Vandenburg and Petracca (absolutely exhausted). 25 seconds later Frost, then 5 seconds later Garland, then Garlett 5 seconds after that. Didn't recognize the player who came next (99% certain this was Kieran Collins, our AIS trainee), and King was last. *May have missed a few players in the mix but top 20 is accurate.

He is just relaying what he see's and hears, give it a break.

How do you see that? Tall young defender that rarely gets beaten and has a facet of his game, his endurance, that is a major weapon against the best forwards in the comp. If you judge a tall defender on his basic skills, you are missing the point of; 1. What key position defenders should be primarily judged for, and 2. What makes skills so important for a team. Defenders do their job when the opponents are not winning the footy, and skills are important for the 10 players on a team that get more than a handful of kicks a game, if they get less kicks than that and are still in the team - then they are not in the team to get kicks. Like the excellent Tom McDonald.

James Frawley is a ready made player. Frost will need time. I'm worried for him. A couple of blunders (like the one he made against us this year) and he'll be very quickly placed under the Demonland microscope. He seems like a good kid with the physical tools to make it. Whether he can defend and read the play and make good choice with the pill remains to be seen. Give him a chance and be understanding of where he is at in his development. Frawley was far from the finished article after his first three seasons.

Ditto. Saty, for all his blind loyalty, does us all a favour by bringing such detailed training summaries. I, for one, am grateful.

Worked for the Hawks & Pies ... as a concept, it's a workable idea (albeit "bending" the rules) But, with those "best draft picks" that can eventuate from tanking, a club needs to get it right. Pick duds and not get any improvement and the recriminations can begin. The way it works is if you tank and then pick well, you're generally off the hook. Tanking is always a chance of happening when there are drafts involved. It's happened in footy on numerous occasions and it happens in the NFL & NBA on an almost constant basis. The Cleveland Cavaliers and the Oakland Raiders get the finger pointed firmly in their direction because both those clubs kept drafting "busts" after tanking. The Indianapolis Colts on the other hand tanked and then drafted Andrew Luck - no such recriminations. There's a pattern. GWS & the GCS have tanked yet most people in the football world either turning a blind eye or haven't noticed. Out of sight, out of mind. There's a very good chance that the Saints tanked last season ... were they seriously trying to win games? They started off at 3/2 after 5 games and then went 1/16.

As is the case with every other Demons supporter, I have suffered through this deep trough of defeats, mis-starts and off-field disasters that have besieged us in recent years and, like every other supporter I arrive in the new year with a sense of hope that this season will be different. I look at training reports and the media and look for any glint of gold amongst the dross to indicate that there is hope. Well this year I am going to approach it differently. I am looking at the team as a clean slate. No history for each player. what you see is what you get. No more "so-and-so needs to do more of this" "What's-his-name can't do that" "Blah blah blah cost us a game last year and he will do it again." I will judge them afresh from their performance at training, in pre-season games and in each game they play be it for the Dees or Casey. This is their second year under Roos, there are a bunch of new players and the team structures and game plan are bedded down more than last year. I want to give them all the opportunity to convince me that they are players I want to watch in my team. It will be hard to set aside the prejudices that the many losing seasons have ingrained in me but I will try. I will still judge any player harshly if they do not step up when required, I will still criticize if they make mistakes but I will not let the players history colour my view of them this year. All are first years players as far as I am concerned. Any one else want to give this a go?

The irony, considering the way you routinely attack posters on here if their opinion differs from yours.

I say we have a good look at the blueprint they are using for International Darts competitions. That is working a treat, imagine replicating the Etihad Darts experience at the G on a Saturday Arvo!

I didn't jump the gun , when I say professional training and the intensity, that means in the running etc, that never changes, the players are professional athletes both Bailey's and Neeld's coaching of the footy side failed with the cattle they had and the level of fitness required as the game had changed. Neeld at least tried to improve the fitness during the pre season, even in Bailey's last year the training looked good, unfortunately inside the head of the players hadn't been fixed. Even Roos found that in the second half of the season and couldn't do anything about it. What I am noticing is the standards in the little things that are changing and with the change of personnel and the way they are coached, we may have the heads in the right place finally

what struck me a lot was how hands off bails and neeld seemed to be at training...neeld more so it seems to me roos is much more hands on and involved. can only be a good thing methinks

Training is training I will admit, but when I went to a recent training session it struck me how easily I knew the 'point' of everything they were doing. It may have been basic (kick to kick with four players in a cross formation to make players 'meet' the footy with the dukes out and hand it to either side), or more complex (game situation planning with a short lateral kick to CHB and then follow up runs through the other wing and the corridor), but I could easily see what they were trying to achieve. When I went to a Neeld training at exactly the same time of the year (maybe a bit later in PS even), some of the drills were foreign to me or seemed 'pointless' to my eyes, players seemed to be just running through the motion of the drill, not much repeated by a majority of the players and I found it difficult to describe to myself what was happening.

Short term objectives. Smash Mitch Clark into oblivion ,leading to severe bout of depression,make him quit. Smash Joel Selwoods head to a pulp. Set fire to the Cattery after the win. Long Term More games at the MCG on a Saturday Arvo. 210pm Burn Etihad to the ground Introduce LSD into Eddie McGuires food supply gradually until he needs to remain in a Mental health facility for the rest of his life.

Yes but we also collected NB and O. McDonald as steak knives ( two picks that weren't going to be used by GWS but which were bl-- dy useful to us )! Picking Frost didn't leave a 'hole in our defence', Frawley did, if anyone, but even that is questionable considering the fact that he spent most of last year in attack! p.s. As Oscar McDonald is also a defender, ( down the track ), trading pick 23 was inspired as it actually strengthened our defence by giving us two ( long-term) defenders.

I reckon Roos will have it in mind to create 4/5 marking options in our forward line ... not necessarily to all play in the one side but if we're going to win games, we'll need to have more than just Hogan & Dawes as targets. So, who are the other options? There's a number of possibilities ... from those who were on our list prior to last year's influx of new players - Watts, Pedersen, Fitzy, Howe, Toumpas, Vince, Gawn/Jamar are all candidates. They could all play as a 3rd tall/tallish forward. Of the new players, O-Mac & Petracca could possibly play that role - even Brayshaw might be tried. It's not unusual for a new player to start off with a role in the forward line and we're not talking about the no.1 or no.2 target - a 3rd forward just needs to be able to play a 3rd forward's role. Most here probably know what that role is but here are my expectations of what a 3rd forward should be capable of ... Sometimes decoy An ability to create space Can lead to the right spots Half decent hands Play the lead up role when needed Can consistently get to the front position A reasonably accurate kick We probably only need 1 or 2 of those aforementioned players to click and away we go. Hogan & Dawes need to be firing to a certain extent but we'll need to have good back-ups regardless. Roos likes versatility in his players and he also likes to build players to play that sort of role. I'm expecting the unexpected with regards to the line-up in our forward line. As for Clark - we got by before he rolled up and we'll certainly get by without him. Plus, a large chunk of our salary cap has been freed up. I'm actually quite relieved that he's gone.

Not just find space but strip the ball from him, find space and kick the damn goal.

This question was asked before and my vote would be Judd.

The top 4 over the last few years: 2014: Sydney, Hawthorn, Geelong, Fremantle. 2013: Hawthorn, Geelong, Fremantle, Sydney. 2012: Hawthorn, Adelaide, Sydney, Collingwood 2011: Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, West Coast 2010: Collingwood, Geelong, St Kilda, Western Bulldogs 2009: St Kilda, Geelong, Western Bulldogs, Collingwood 2008: Geelong, Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs, St Kilda 2007: Geelong, Port Adelaide, West Coast, North Melbourne I know it feels like the same teams are ALWAYS at the top, but realistically the cycle has actually been in effect. What we don't know yet is whether (and it seems highly likely) free agency will have a drastic and highly negative impact on the natural cycle of teams going up and down the ladder. If anything, the MFC are the true anomalies, permanently glued at the bottom of the spectrum. 14th, 16th, 16th, 12th, 13th, 16th, 17th, 17th. No other team has been that ingrained on the bottom of the ladder, and it's history of our own making.

I think people forget how young Tom is. He's been scary good in some games and he's only entering his fifth year. He's bloody disciplined for his age, and shows fantastic leadership. Wouldn't be surprised to see him in the LG this year following the departure of Frawley.

Yep - I also felt this with both players. Reality is you don't want the wrong people around you when there is hard work to do. Both could play but neither would improve the team because their commitment was equivocal. If we paid overs to keep them, then the rest of the group suffers. Roos and co have made the best of their exits and probably engineered a win in the medium term.

Deliberately lose games to get the best draft picks, then have a great team and be world beaters.

It's amazing (but not surprising) that I can't even mention three names without you getting all fan boy offended and throw a few barbs. We don't all attend every single training session on our scooter and pester the players with questions about their injuries and ask them to pose for "gun pics". They are just player X, Y and Z to me. I can't assess players who haven't played a game. It's not fair and it wouldn't be accurate to do so,so. They are excluded. With that in mind, those three are the ones near or at the bottom of the list. If someone like Riley steps it up I'll be thrilled, but I don't greatly fancy the chances of Terlich or McKenzie making me eat humble pie.

Well I'm a "Christian" - someone who thinks about Jesus and reads his messages and tries to understand what I realise is a constant effort (if you choose to make an effort that is) to make a path in the world when my flaws are no doubt as significant and my selfishness no doubt as sincere as pretty much anyone else's. Now given that my family has an Irish background and that the IRA waged a terrorist war over a long period I have no difficulty putting my metaphorical hand on my heart and saying that these people ( the IRA) were not acting as "Christians" but rather were attaching themselves to a pseudo-religious position to achieve ends that no doubt at the time they would have killed me or mine should public opposition to them have been expressed. The argument seems to be being put in various quarters that these extremists in Islam who perpetrate these bombings and assassinations/murders are poor misguided brainwashed dupes and we need to protect the young ones from being seduced by the attraction of the messages projected to them drawing them toward this pathway which seems to me to have the end of achieving maximum infliction of death and suffering on the identified targets (and "collateral damage" is acceptable ) Now the point to this offering is this: I have zero difficulty in stating that the IRA actions were against Jesus' explicit directions and without doing any research whatsoever I give two examples : when Jesus was arrested, one of his followers used a sword (it is recorded) to defend him and was rebuked for his efforts by Jesus who told him to lay down the weapon. Further, Jesus said that " no one takes my life from me - I lay it down freely" These are just two examples of the nonviolent approach that the author of "Christianity " demonstrated and which if I was to engage in a public debate with "Christians " promoting violence I would refer to to demonstrate that their methodology was contrary to their alleged loyalty. Not saying that would have changed anything in their actions - they ( IRA or similars) may well have been being deceitful about their motivations in any case and I may have been killed or kneecapped for my efforts. Now it may be that in a similar way these murdering Islamists can be shown (by the majority of Muslims who are not treading this path) to be being untrue to the faith they claim to be following and that the majority's contrary approach demonstrated to have a sound philosophical underpinning given the presuppositions of Islam. ( and the bald statement that the majority do not ascribe to that approach will not suffice - that alone does not oppose the deeply held justification of the militants) If it is the case that there are anti-militant arguments contained within Islamic scriptures, I for one would love to see that debate in the public arena because if counter-arguments to the Islamist position exist, I haven seen them yet - and I do mean from within the Islamic community. And I have been looking. If similar examples to the ones I quoted above from Christian writings ("scriptures ") exist within the Qur'an it is time they hit the naked light of day so that it may be clearly seen that the actions of these killers who claim to be true followers of the Prophet are not indicative of the core and nature of Islam. It's time.

Our backline is stacked as far as I'm concerned. There's barely enough room for our best defenders and recruits at once. The forward line is the obvious problem, and we desperately needed to fix that in the last trade period. Garlett was a great outcome, and Petracca (although young) will likely start at FF or HF, hopefully providing another target. Get Hogan on the park and expect natural improvement from Kent/JKH and we have a semblance of a forward line at last. That said, next year we really need to target another key forward because our depth is simply not good enough. We're stacked with developing mids but not forwards.

Gotcha. He certainly looks physically ready but I think we need to be patient. Dunn, McDonald, Garland should all be picked ahead of him come Round 1. Howe seems destined to play down back and I'm a Grimes fan so do really see a spot yet for Frost. Roos appears big on creating a culture where you have to prove yourself and not be gifted games. Going in his favour is the usually tall make-up of the Gold Coast forward line.

One of the worst aspects of Demonland are posts of regular updates on former players now at other clubs . Can't we just move on and concentrate on our promising young talent ? Maybe with the single exception of the detestable $culs who was virtually gone before he started .

Uncle Bitter has always been his charming best

Fair call. I believe the only time Roosy referred to him as 'arguably the clubs best player', was when we were right in the middle of the draft assistance request. When that was a lost cause I think Mitch got the mail.

'Macca', I have no problem with Clark moving on but I do have a big problem with him using the depression card. He did so many people a disservice with that one.

Maybe if people stopped attacking the new members then lurkers would be more encouraged to start contributing. Too many times I see posters with less substantial post counts dismissed based on their newbie status. It's very off-putting to people who love the club just as much as you, and discourages new members and new ideas and discussions from taking place. Post count holds too much gravitas on this forum by some members.

It's interesting for someone like me who always reads D'land but seldom posts (anymore) the often quite vitriolic posts that are directed to TDI's training reports. I'm assuming DD36 that you also attend just as many sessions as you seem also to be very well informed (is that correct) I for one don't attend training sessions and so read with avid interest the reports from people that do attend and whilst I realise that these are opinion based I would certainly see no reason to bag these opinions . When the season proper starts we will see for ourselves the improvement or not in our MFC players. So if Roos & Co see fit to keep Jordie, Bail, etc on our list , I for one will applaud these players for trying to get the best out of themselves & will withhold criticism until it is warranted in 2015 & not based on past performances. In summary ....to all those who are able to attend training sessions the reports & photos that are posted are very much appreciated by I am sure many on Demonland & when I am in a position to actually watch the players in this pre-season then I can then legitimately agree or disagree with these posts

Who is going to volunteer to tell Daniel Cross to his face that he is going to retire at the end of the year To all the posters who don't get it, the club has 40 odd players on it's list, they put themselves through hell both physically and mentally to stay on that list, whilst they are on that list, they will have my support. I would respect some of the posters on here a bit more if they could walk up to Jordie McKenzie and tell him to his face that his kicking is poor, but it is quite easy to hide behind a keyboard. I have had a couple of chats with him, discussing where he thinks he needs to improve to stay on the list and he is very honest with his answers, last year he told me Roos had said he was too one dimensional and needed to change, this pre season I am seeing that change at training As for Garland, he is now back in full training, and has looked really good again in the last couple of weeks

With saying that, I didn't ever see you speaking up at AGM's or putting yourself forward to assist the club, I attended a workshop recently and when asked for words that sprung to mind with MFC, I said whingers, and was howled down, then the whingeing started, but nobody came up with solutions as per the norm I am a realist, the club fell in a hole of it's own making, and somebody kicked the ladder away, we have now found the ladder, we just have to climb out of the hole The coaches do know better, that is why they are an AFL coach, and most if not all on here are not Some on here can't even form their own opinions, I listen to or read a piece from one of the so called experts in the media and the next day it's quoted on here as fact Jordie's disposal efficiency is around the normal for most solid AFL players over their career which is 75 to 80%, if it wasn't he wouldn't be on the list Actually to make a point re the efficiency, Nev Jetta's was always in the 90% region yet he was delisted, why because his body continually let him down, let's see what McKenzie can do with a full preseason

I was actually at training this morning Just a few notes on the 3k time trial We had 10 players sub 10 minutes, with Tommy Mac first and Max King last, that being said King took 25secs of his time, said he had to Jimmy Toumpas was bitterly disappointed with his time, has had a bit of a cold and couldn't get the engine running smoothly Salem was around the 10 05 to 10 30 mark (trying to get the correct time was a battle, (bloody Arsenal supporter) Viney took 2 secs off and got a PB HL surprised me, he said he did ok for his first 3k, seems Collingwood only ever did 2k, he was around the Salem time McKenzie and Cross were both sub 10, so was Bail Jetta didn't front for training, so assume he is crook with his poor 3k They had another good hard session when they got back to Goschs, lots of ball work, Stafford did a lot of work with the ruck brigade which was all present, so that's a bonus there, Jamar, Gawn, Spencer, Fitzpatrick, King Hogan did the full session, has now got a mean looking haircut to go with the new beard, looks bloody fearsome Only Terlich and Watts really in rehab, they did a bit of kicking and marking with Spencer at the beginning, Watts forgot it was wet and took a beautiful tumble trying to mark, bounced straight up so would say the groin problems are over Any questions feel free

Nice to see the Brisbane Heat put to the sword by the Perth Scorchers. Puts paid to their chances.

Would that message be: people like winners? Everyone already knows that. As I said - there is nothing wrong with the 10k (hopefully) bandwagon members out there, but trumpeting it and implying others are chumps for signing up before success is not going to go down well on Land of all places. We are pathetic Demon tragics, if it wasn't for the 30-35k members who sign up regardless - the club would find it impossible to function - there is no escaping that fact.

The physios will have checked it out, but I assume there wasn't a scanning machine available at the ground, yes I agree maybe there was a mistake made with the diagnosis, but his reporting of the issue was not ignored. Have we thought that maybe an 18 year old wasn't articulating what he was actually feeling

Can you clarify that? Or is it just yet another Demonland myth, as far as I know he reported the issue after the Geelong game?, and it was immediately dealt with, I am not "pollyannerish", I am repeating what the players have told me, unlike some I prefer to ask

I seriously feel sick reading that (Thanks for the report BTW)

Hello chaps, fellow reporters, naysayers, lemon suckers and the general diaspora. Missing in action - Nathan Jones, bad gash from surfing, Misso said he is absolutely filthy with himself, hence no pics on social media. McKenzie has the man flu. Trengove still rehabbing inside. Walking wounded - Hogan, think he had a bit of back tightness, think this issue is similar to Hawkins, can create discomfort but not stop him playing, left track early. Petracca, just tweaked his knee, got it strapped and carried on, so obviously not serious. Kent is fine, still working his way back, trying not to do it again, so on a modified program. Watts, still on his modified program, worked his guts out again. Alex NB, was doing bits, no serious damage to his knee, taking it day by day, no time set for return to full training. Others: Riley, Stretch, Terlich, Vandenberg (whose body shape is changing already), and Spencer, all said they were exactly where they should be. Slightly walking wounded - JKH who had a second look at breakfast after one of the running drills and made the fitness staff laugh by saying that was last time he has bacon and eggs before training. Bernie Vince is nearly back at full training, took part in all the drills, did the 'guns' photo this week to prove he is nearly symmetrical again. Jayden Hunt is being looked at as a project for half back utilising his speed and neat kicking. Nice touch today, Max King, who I think they are trying to kill, was absolutely spent after one running drill, Jamar over to him, arm around him encouraging him on, Jamar is setting himself for a big year, has his game face on. Dom Tyson is absolutely pumped, another session completed, is bouncing around. Most who completed the session today rated it at 7. One interesting thing, Nev Jetta is actually looking faster, asked him, agreed did speed work over the Xmas break. Another interesting point, new friendship seems to be Salem and Viney, last 2 off the track today after doing some extra work. Any questions feel free, pics on Twitter Demonpk later.

agree LG. carrot & stick too many are rivalrous against our own, & instead of a good humored response to something they think 'weak' or 'below the standard', they get terse or demeaning. maybe this is a part of why we don't have more supporters & members generally... I don't know, But maybe there is an arrogance surrounding the RednBlue that stinks it up & puts many Off us ????