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Just got back. Had to leave after two hours because of Richmond parking restrictions. The boys were still going strong at 11:30am. Roos is back! Some observations... Viney was indeed training full throttle. His hit on Evans was the kind of thing you love to see in a game, but I reckon Evans feels it unnecessary in a training drill. Viney only knows one way. The product of this bump was that Evans went to the sidelines and resumed after 15 minutes. Viney eventually headed indoors with a rather forlorn look on his face (may have slight concussion - Evans seemed to have neck soreness). Standouts for me... Strauss - I still have question marks but his efforts at training today were first class. He was very quick and for sustained time, gave it everything. Spencer - I'm now glad he is the last big man standing. Could be a breakout year. (no sign of Jamar today) Michie - mature body, strong inside and ready to rock n roll. Frawley - bristling and fit Nat Jones - clean as a whistle in ball-handling Howe - great run, good foot skills Garland was with the rehab group today, along with Tappy, Clark, Dawes, Gawn, Hogan, Kent, Fitzpatrick and Aidan Riley (I think) Hogan seemed to be running okay... not 100% yet. I am pleased to report that Maia Westrupp is getting the hang of the game and trained well in the main group. Harmes and Hunt move well, very pacey and lots of upside. Good to see Clisby back with main group. Georgiou a capable ball-handler, runs hard, kicking not as bad as some have indicated. Tyson did enough to show he will help lift our midfield. Oh yeah, Bernie Vince is a gem!

I left training at about 12 when the main group had finished. Unsighted today was Matt Jones although he may have joined the rehab group after they left the main oval and did running and other drills on the old training oval. But I didn't see him or Garland. The rest of the rehab group were as WW has said. The balls were out from the beginning and there was a lot of enthusiasm in the group. Players who stood out for me today were Strauss and Blease. I haven't read much about Strauss in the reports to date but he didn't put a foot wrong today. He ran hard, kicked very well and didn't fumble. Blease also trained well. In the first session back after Christmas when he ran 300's he fell off the pace in the second and third repeats. There were no 300's today but when the ball went away after about 2 hours they did some 40 and 80 metre reps and Blease had no trouble keeping up. His kicking during training was very good and he stayed behind after training had finished to do some specific goal kicking. Towards the end of training Clisby left the main group and did multiple laps as did Hogan and Gawn. None of the rehab group looked significantly troubled and Dawes wasn't wearing any bandage on his knee. Barry was training with the midfielders and looks good although it was disappointing to see both he and Kennedy Harris make some silly skill errors when under no pressure. I'd be surprised to see either play much footy early this year. Today was the first time I'd seen Salem train and he was quite impressive with sure hands and beautiful kicking. He, Toumpas, Watts, Strauss and Blease all kicked the ball well today in what was a solid and good training session. And what would a training report be without Watts. Trained with the mids and when they were practising centre square clearances he played as the wingman. He got his fair share of contested ball and as usual made good decisions. But all of this is just "dancing with your sister" and we won't really be able to judge until the first NAB cup match.

I only stopped for 10mins on my way past, but Viney was going full throttle. I know he has been managed of late, but he was very quick and agressive in the drill I saw. 4 on 4, offence/defence. He actually took Pickles Evans out with a heavy hit and they both had to step out of training for 5 mins. Tappy back with the rehabers. I wonder if it was a light day for him or something else. I suppose we'll know more later in the week.

I have a feeling that he's going to be playing basically the role Hird played. He'll sit off the packs and be the designated outlet man for guys like Viney and Cross. If they go in and get the ball out to him he has the pace, poise and skill to really hurt the opposition with it. I can't see him suddenly becoming an inside hard man with a change of coaches, but he can certainly get more of the ball and be more damaging to the opposition playing in the middle.

Another week of summer training beckons but this time it's back to the big city action and close to the epicentre of world sport around Melbourne Park and more specifically for us, Goschs Paddock. Still, it won't be easy topping the past week; foggy conditions greeting the players at Cranbourne on at the start of a week of scorching heat, a refrigerated truck at a training session on a day when nobody was quite sure where or when it was taking place, a couple of minor injuries at training, a missing coach (reports put him anywhere between Africa and Hawaii) and a bit of hype about a #1 draft pick whose ascendency to the top has been a long time coming and about who there is renewed hope - Demons' Jack Watts ready to take on elite And ... as the playing group builds up to full fitness with those NAB matches around the corner, one of our main concerns is always the health and well-being of the playing list so I've compiled this list of players who reports have indicated were missing from training since the new year return or had injuries during training (some appear to be minor). Those players have asterisks next to their names and the injury if known is in brackets:- 1. Jesse Hogan * (jarred knee) 2. Nathan Jones 3. Christian Salem * (ill) 4. Jack Watts 5. Jimmy Toumpas 6. Chris Dawes * (recovering from knee surgery) 7. Jack Viney * (hip - but trained 20.1.14 & apparently concussed) 8. James Frawley 9. Jack Trengove 10. Shannon Byrnes 11. Mitch Clark * (foot/hamstring) 12. Dom Tyson 13. Jordie McKenzie 14. Lynden Dunn 15. Mitch Clisby * (?) 16. Dean Kent * (patellar tendinitis) 17. Sam Blease 18. Daniel Cross * (nose) 19. James Strauss 20. Colin Garland 21. Cameron Pedersen 22. Viv Michie 23. Bernie Vince * (? but trained 20.1.14) 24. Jay Kennedy-Harris 25. Tom McDonald 26. Daniel Nicholson 27. Aidan Riley * (fractured right fibula) 28. 29. Jayden Hunt 30. 31. Jack Grimes 32. Michael Evans * (bumped into #7 at training 20.1.14) 33. Dom Barry 34. 35. Luke Tapscott 36. 37. Max Gawn * (hamstring) 38. Jeremy Howe 39. 40. Mark Jamar * (hamstring) 41. Alex Georgiou 42. Jake Spencer 43. James Harmes 44. Rohan Bail 45. Matt Jones * (calf) 46. Dean Terlich 47. Max King 48. Jack Fitzpatrick * (?) 49. 50. Maia Westrupp [if anyone can help clarify the nature of the unknown injuries please let me know and I'll update the list] If anyone's thinking "why us" let's not forget that while it's not ideal for players to have restricted pre seasons, none of those injuries appear likely to derail anyone's season at this stage, some players are on specially formulated modified programmes that should have them back at their peak at the start of the season and every club has them anyway. In the past week, we've learned of fairly serious injuries to Nathan van Berlo, Zac Clarke, Tom Bellchambers, Steven Motlop and now Lewis Jetta.

Not only you and I, but unfortunately some of the players too. My expectation is that there will be noticeable improvement in the playing list. The reality is that some wont and will disappear end of the season.

I think we have to give everyone a clean slate this year.

Toump did the full session. HIs kicking is great. Hogan is in rehab but was running without difficulty and there was no bandage on his knee.

IIRC, Jack has only really played 1 game in the midfield which was Rd8 2012 v Swan (we lost by 101 points) and by playing in the midfield i mean that he lined up at the centre bounce. In reality "playing in the midfield" that night was essentially playing as 7th, 8th, 9th & 10th defenders as the I50 count was 71 to 35 (33 scoring shots to 12). Stats for the game: 34 Disposals (18 kicks; 16 HB) 11 Marks (2 contested) 1 tackle 1 free for 1 free against 12 contested possessions (equal 5th on ground) 76.5% disposal efficiency (26 effective disposal - equal BOG) 4 clangers 2 clearances 8 rebound 50s (only 6 dee's players didnt record a R50) 3 1%'ers 150 Supercoach points (2nd behind Kieran Jack) If you dont remember the game, dont go watch it... it was horrible; but Jack and Sam Blease (maybe Garland) were the only good things that arvo for us. Even Neeld recognised Jack's efforts in his special backhanded way when he said something along the lines of "Well when your best midfielder is playing his first game in the middle, you know you are in trouble" Someone might be able to help with that quote. But my main point is that he has never played in the midfield in the AFL so don't write him off. But if you have watched any of the games he played at Sandringham he was used as a midfielder, he only played CHF for Vic Metro and even then he ran through the midfield in parts of games. I believe that we all want Jack to succeed, but we all have different expectations on him which will lead to knockers no matter what but as supporters rather than sitting here doubting him before he has even kicked a ball this season, which is just plain disrespectful, why dont we look at what he is doing on the track (i havent been this pre-season). It does seem from the reports that he is more involved, pushing harder, he has moved up into the "top" group in the running and is generally working harder in training (which is a knock everyone seems to have on him). It is hard being positive after so many years of mediocrity, but finally it feels like we are moving in the right direction. If we are to climb to the top it is guys like Jack, Trenners, Tyson, Toumpas, Mitchie & Viney who are going to be the driving force and guys like Cross & Vince are there to add depth, experience and protection for the younger guys. Sorry for the rant.

I think Watts best position would be wing. Don't think he has the balls to be a midfielder but surely it can't hurt throwing him in there - he may just grow some. With Watts height, speed, kicking/decision making and aerobic capacity he could use all of his strengths to his advantage playing on the wing. He could use his speed and aerobic capacity to burn off/tire opponents. He is no good in congestion but playing as a wing man he could drift from back pocket to forward flank either clearing the ball from defense or setting up a goal with his kicking/decision making. If learns how to use his height and weight he could also be a good target coming out of defense. Watts needs to become the kind of player which keeps his opponents always on his toes - not the other way round. I just don't think I could stand a whole year of Watts trying to chase midfielders around with half arsed tackles.

Bulldust, if you're still in the camp that our player development has been good enough to allow our players to become their best then you seriously have NFI.

Talk's cheap Jack. Action in 2014 please.

I'm an unashamed Jack Watts fan. I really believe that he will make it and make a lot of posters look silly. Lets back of our loyal players who had the opportunity to jump ship and decided to stay. My 2 up has the number 4 on the back of his jumper

Watts being the 137th best player in the AFL reminded me of the song, The Ballad of Irving, by Frank Gallop... He was short and fat, and rode out of the West With a Mogen David on his silver vest. He was mean and nasty right clear through, Which was kinda weird, 'cause he was yellow too. They called him Irving. Big Irving. Big, short Irving. Big short, fat Irving. The hundred and forty-second fastest gun in the West. A hundred and forty-one could draw faster than he, But Irving was looking for one forty-three. etc. etc.

He is another one I am prepared to give a clean slate to. McKenzie circa the last 3 years - you would be right in thinking that he doesnt have a long term future. However with good training and repetitive training that the likes of Roos and Stone will be imparting..... Be trained to go to the right spot and knowing that someone is going to be where he is trained to be and repeatedly being drilled in that....We know that McKenzie can get down and dirty and to where the ball is at. I am not saying that McKenzie will all of a sudden become a star or even that he will be a mainstay in our team. He is another of many I will give a clean slate too and say - no previous history - all past performances and weaknesses are forgiven. Prove yourself now. He like Watts, Bail, Tapscott, Dunn and lots of others have a fresh chance with what I believe are good educators to make good forward progress. Its up to them. Postscript - I watch the good midfields - especially Geelong and Hawthorn and am amazed at how they clear a ball from a stoppage. So many times players who second receive the ball dont get the ball because they are seen or heard. They get it because it is a drill and without looking or hearing, their teamate knows they will be there. Thats where we need to get to.

Thanks Swooper. Great news. And I'm a fan of Michael Evans so good to see he's in the thick of things. FWIW, Evans is my pick as the bloke who smashes our perception of him. I rate him highly in terms of footy nous.

Thanks for that depressing info TT

Watts has sublime moments of vision and finesse but also stuffs up when he gets caught thinking... I'm not convinced he's as 'soft' as people say, but he often hesitates to go in when he gets caught thinking... He's also quite a good shot at goal, but sometimes sprays it completely when he gets caught thinking... So, what I'm saying is, Watts can be a great player when in a good mental space, calm but alert. I wonder where we'd find a coach who was right into fostering that sort of thing?

Hitting the board hard tonight Bitty. Hit the bottle hard as well?

Pendlebury is a good comparison, but surely Pendlebury's sidewards agility is grades above. As for the victim of poor development? While I think Neeld treated him appallingly (subbing Essendon game 2013), hunger for the pill should be so intrinsic that it can't be taught or erased. Personally, I can't see Watts the midfielder. I want to see it, but I can't. I know Roos is trying to emulate the Freo midfield giants (Mundy, Fyfe etc..), but I can't see how Watts can be the transitioned into the midfield. I really wonder whether Roos knows this (Watts midfield) will work. The good thing is it won't do him any harm trying. His engine will be better. His body will be more hardened and his tackling intensity etc. will be better. But he will end up forward; he is a natural; and he is the guy I want having 8 shots at the big sticks come GF day 2018.

It has been happening for years now WJ.Not sure why a guy still trying to prove he is an AFl player gets so much hype.

Oh for facks sake. I am very hopeful that in 2014 1. He will be a much improved player and 2. You will be all knowing, mind numbingly petty

Yeah, reading his meanderings is like being on drugs without the expense or risk of arrest.

It doesnt .... it supposed everything is finite...it isnt Bit like those that say after a coin turns up heads 50 times in a row it ought to be tails.. odds still exactly the same for that event...50/50 Scoring of yourself doesnt necessarily change 'their' outcomes. Denying them the ball does.

I have been advised wing is now mid and i am sure Roos wants Watts on the wing/mid taking the ball from defence and yes a great target in open spaces..Watts not a good option for inside mid..

The Hawks didn't go to Tasmania for anything else. The membership flow-on effect was an afterthought. And honestly, what else do they get out of going there? Only memberships. And how do they sell those? By making it easier to ensure you get a seat at the matches with a "membership", rather than just a ticket, at pretty much the same cost. All it really does is push the membership numbers up. And success breeds success, so people see the boosted numbers and want to get involved themselves. It might be artificially boosting membership numbers, but there is a flow on effect. One that would be very handy for us. With multiple games in Darwin in a season, we should be selling 2 game memberships at a slightly reduced rate in comparison to buying tickets to the 2 individual matches. You lock the fans in for both games and get the numbers up. The positive effects won't be as great as those in Tassie, but they will be there.

I've illustrated that it is only a correlation, and that different game styles, most obviously that of Fremantle under Ross Lyon, can produce high level results without anywhere near the inside 50 or goals-per-game rates of some other top teams. 'Likely' is far from the same as 'set'. 'Average' is far from 'actual'. There has been a remarkable consistency of the overall aggregate scores for seasons (a little over 90 per game on average, and about 4000 points per team per season... on average). Despite that, in 2008 there was a 'spike' up to 97 goals a game. But that means sweet diddly-squat on a team-by-team and game-by-game basis. For instance, 30 seconds looking at this year's ladder and hopefully anyone would notice a few things, like - Geelong and Hawthorn have higher scores both for AND against, compared to the next three teams on the ladder. For total volume of scoring, the difference between the grand finalists in 2013 was 800 points. 800. Eight hundred. Eight-zero-zero. That's equivalent to six goals a game. Lower in the 8, Richmond, Collingwood and Essendon have almost identical 'for' scores but a differential of 250 in the 'against' column - that's an average of two goals a game. Just out of the 8, Carlton and Adelaide have very similar percentage, but Carlton's games have seen 150 more points scored than Adelaide's. Meanwhile, North Melbourne, sandwiched between the two, see another 100 points a season on top of Carlton's. The Bulldogs and Gold Coast have the same number of wins, and close to identical 'for' scores. Bulldogs have 170 extra points 'against'. Down the bottom of the ladder, GWS scored 70 more points over the season than Melbourne did, and also had 300 more points scored against them. Close to 3 more goals per game were scored in GWS games than Demon games. Just one final factor for consideration; change within one team, year on year. A pertinent example for Melbourne's consideration might be, say, following a change of coach to a more defensively oriented one? Fremantle 2013 For: 2035 Against: 1518 Total: 3553 (161 per game, equivalent to 27 goals per game) 2012 For: 1956 Against: 1691 Total: 3647 (166 per game, 27 goals per game) 2011 For: 1791 Against: 2155 Total: 3946 (179 per game, 30 goals per game) 2010 For: 2168 Against: 2087 Total: 4255 (193 per game, 32 goals per game) Conclusion: Goals per game is not a static figure, scoring more goals does not reduce the number of goals your opponent will score, and the total scoring taking place each game can vary considerably from one season to the next for a given team. Can we call this one wrapped up?

All we need to complete this thread is a contribution from ENYAW after which it can be closed.

nah its legit

^^^^^ A supporter re-writing history. If Watts was drafted by the Pies they too would have tried to make him a key position player like they did with Ben Reid. Both were skinny 196 cm talls that were always going to take time. Reid has always put his body on the line far more than Watts. There's a reason one is a key defender and the other is trying midfield. And it is such lame thinking to assume that Watts has Pendlebury's midfield ability. This isn't a kick mark or handballing contest. We know Watts has skills. Pendlebury is so superior when it comes to midfield positioning, play and preparedness to compete it's not funny.

If only he played as well as he talked.... Go in hard Jack, that's what we want to see.

If only you could remember it. Were you the guy in the mall with the leather g-string and the demons hat trying to sell "original Liam Jurrah" jumpers?

Pick we used on Jack Grimes.

McQueen, I facking well love steak and therefore concede if you tell me the perfect steak secret.

McQueen, it doesn't matter whether he is compared to Selwood or Pendlebury. If he is playing in the midfield these guys will be his nearest opponents, and with his lack of experience playing against these types it could be a tough job for Watts. I will be glad to see him give it a go but his fitness will be challenged considering the defensive two way running which is required. You believe he has the tools to be as good as Pendlebury...if that is to be the case he will need to learn an elite inside and outside game with the ability to show poise with the ball in hand and the ability to find away through traffic and his tackling ability and core strength will have to improve. One area which I think Watts could compare to Pendlebury is the ability to be a goal scoring midfielder. But apart from that...let's be honest it's never going to happen. Only Watts can help himself.

That is a sh it comparison. The most relative (or heard about) is Pendlebury, and I believe he has the tools to be that good. Watts is a victim of poor development in a poor team. If he was drafted by Collingwood in '08 he'd be a vastly different player. Roos will extract everything we've seen glimpses of in Jack on a regular basis.

I did that very thing two years ago. Enjoyed the sights. Met the players. Drank plenty of booze with fellow tragics. Had a fantastic time away from cold Melbourne. Only problem was ths result. So I don't see a memorable weekend as "stupid".

Maybe the AFL has come to the realisation that the GWS experiment is not working, so they are going to merge them with us, relocate the team to Canberra and call us the Melbourne Avenue Demons.

Stop taking threads off topic will you Moon!!

FMD. Should not be speaking to the media in my opinion. Just puts pressure on himself and the club... and as we know he struggles with the weight of expectation. Work hard on the track, play some decent footy and earn some respect.

Playing mid, all he needs to do to be successful is hard straight lines at the ball when in congestion. He has everything else, the rest will take care of itself, should be simple to just play see ball get ball kind of footy.

So far so good AHG. What I would love to see from the MFC is low cost trip option to Darwin for those games. I can never understand why we cannot come up a reasonable priced option. Get it set up now months in advance, or advertise a special Dees charter flight up Friday back Sunday evening. I reckon you could fill a plane no problem. Come on MFC fire up

I thought the Vikings would go for a coach with a offensive background as our last coach was a defensive man. Seems to be good reports on Zimmer. The vikings always hire the opposite personality to the coach we just fired. Frazier was the nice guy after Brad Childress was fired and now we have Zimmer who as you said doesn't hold his tongue. Hope he can work with a new QB. We should trade up or hope that Bortles falls to us at pick 8.

I locked my keys in the car that day couldn't get them out tried for an hour cracked the shits smashed my window and drove home, my son and ilistened to it on the radio, couldn't believe our luck.

Training pictures at Casey today including an action sequence of young Billy Stretch ==> http://www.smugmug.com/photos/swfpopup.mg?AlbumID=36047047&AlbumKey=ccGjHn

Mines reverse psychology, if I back the niners they are sure to lose since I've backed against them and they seem to win. Is there any way both teams can be disqualified Ahhhh no fun watching two of your rivals playing the the championship for a shot at the Super Bowl.

A lot of love for the Niners this week. I can't see it happening. We're playing well, and I don't think Seattle are at the best right now, but if there's any game to get Seattle playing their best, it's a home game against us. And I'm still not sure Kaepernick is good enough to get it done at Seattle. As for the AFC game, I'm going to give it to home-field advantage, but it could go either way. New England 30 Denver 33 San Francisco 17 Seattle 20

He actually did do that, in the OP.

So if we have about 13/14 inside 50's each quarter and kick about 25 points then we should be competitive.....will remember that for next year, thanks C&B. but that's just one of many statistics that we struggle in our possession differential to our opponents would have been huge compared teams in the top 8. Basically we are at rock bottom and we can only get better with all statistics.

I like it C & B. I'm surprised Stuie has had a crack at you though. That's not his style.