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A young player gives platitudes and mindless cliches in an interview with the press? My god, how could he? I've never, in all my years of supporting football, seen a footballer do this. Ground breaking. Some of these kids aren't very good at speaking frankly in interviews. In fact, the vast majority of them aren't, but you can't just interview Jack Grimes all the time. Some of you really need to just learn which interviews you ignore and which ones are worth reading in to.

Who's the leader of the club That's made for you and me M-I-C-K-E-Y ........M-A-L-T-H-O-U-S-E

Stu, your ability to process what's happening on the footy field right before your eyes is disturbingly poor. I'm not sure what your day job is but I wouldn't be leaving it any time soon. My football views have evolved over the years. I too was originally seduced by Watt's talents, which is why I was a strong advocate of him pre-draft, but one is never too old to keep learning and I'm constantly wanting to improve my understanding of the game. The things I didn't appreciate enough were the intangibles. I've learnt that it's far easier to direct a player's natural aggression if it's wayward than it is to instill it in a player that has very little. I've learnt that it's very difficult to change a player's instinct. If they're timid about putting their body on the line it's hard to change that. You can improve it, but to what degree ? And it also depends on the position you play. If you're 175cm's you're not usually subjected to the same situations you are when you're 196cm's. I've learnt that when you're considering drafting a key forward there are prerequisites that are desirable, such as aggression, courage and a yearning for physical contact. I've learnt that there's a reason that quality key forwards that regularly impact games are as rare as hen's teeth. It's not easy to find a player with talent that has also these qualities. When I watch Watts I see a player that won't commit to contests. When I watch Jeremy Howe I see him busting a gut to reach a marking contest from a mile off. I'm anticipating whether he'll get there in time. When I watch Watts in the same circumstances I'm watching a player that hopes he won't get there. Actually, he doesn't try. I'm watching a player that doesn't want to compete. I'm watching a player that hangs back when in the same situation a Clark, or Howe would be contesting. Jack Riewoldt, Brown, Carey, Clark, Brereton and plenty of others would just about kill their Grandmother to get to a contest. They're manic in their approach. It's what's required when you're a key forward. On occasions when Watts' knows he has no choice, because the ball has been kicked on his head, he'll usually meekly put one arm in the air and close his eyes. He has no appetite for the contest. He picks and chooses when to go. It's called "playing on your own terms". I've seen a skinny Nathan Fyfe regularly put his body on the line. I've seen a skinny Jeremy Cameron regularly put his body on the line. He has a crack. Cameron was the youngest player in the league this year and has kicked roughly 30 goals from 16 games. Now I know that you think I'm being mean. You think I'm annoyed that he's not the type of player I was hoping for. Yes, that's true. I thought we were drafting a 600+ goal key forward and clearly we haven't. I've long been resigned to the fact that he's a poor pick one. But I'm more annoyed that he's terribly soft. I'm more annoyed that he won't put his body on the line. I'm more annoyed that he's nowhere near fulfilling his physical talents. Playing as a creative half back doesn't appease me, especially when I still see soft efforts. Either you think I'm wrong and you think he does put his body on the line, or you think he'll substantially change his playing instincts and suddenly commit to contests he presently avoids. I don't share that optimism. If you've ever played the game you'll know that contested marking requires the most courage in Aussie Rules footy. Having your midrift exposed while you're leaping in a pack takes courage. Waiting for your ribs to take a hit, but not letting that affect your efforts in the marking contest takes courage. Waiting for an errant/deliberate fist in the head takes courage. Expecting a knee right in the small of your back takes courage. None of this is for a faint heart. It's also not for Jack Watts.

Bloody Jordie. He's keeping all the Cotchins and Fyfes we have tearing it up at Casey out of the side. Land sucks sometimes...

people forget that the board consists of some seriously established and successful businessmen who know what it takes to run a successful business (which is what Schwab has to do) and can make hard decisions. no doubt the board has played a huge role in clearing the debt but that doesn't mean schwab has sat on his hands for 4 years. a couple in particular Stuart Grimshaw - CEO of BOQ + Guy Jalland - Legal Exec to the Packers. I'm not going to dance around like some of you here and say its a fantastic or suicidal decision but i do know that a) these guys are far far more qualified than most on here and B) they actually get to work with him and see the inside of the club If they've come to this decision it wont have been without hours and hours of debate and scrutiny and i will stick with them on it

The thing that worries me about Watts is that he actually does have elite physical attributes, but he doesn't use them. He could not gain another ounce of muscle for the rest of his career, but still be a great of the game with the physical tools he has right now. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem like it will happen. "Jack Watts marks strongly out in front on a lead" is a sentence we should hear ten times a week. I've never heard it once in his entire playing days. Great endurance, tall, good hands and super quick. He is all of those things, but doesn't put them to use.

Poor Cam. He gets 2 sponsors in a month under intense pressure and he doesn't get squat for it. Furthermore the poor bastard doesn't even have a good product to sell. Fancy trying to [censored] off oil to Arabs, because sponsors certainly weren't getting on board knowing we'd be helping their image! Cam has done a good job with the resources in front of him. I'd love too see what he can do with a real football team on the ground gathering outside support. I personally think 2 years may have been more suitable but I trust the club and say congratulations Cam, don't take your foot off the gas yet- the good times are coming.

I note that after 9 pages the pro NikNat people still haven't been able to come up with any comparative statistics that support their stance. The simple truth is that Watts, despite playing in a truly awful side, is matching up very well statistically. The difference is that he is not a gigantic deadlocked black man and as such is not as eye-catching. Now, to those who sing his praises, I am perfectly happy to say that NicNat has the potential to be an amazing player. His speed, strength and athleticism are astounding, which is why he continues to make headlines despite his skill level. But therein lies the problem. His lack of games sense means that he rarely gets into space or spreads from a contest, so too many of his disposals are contested. His skills are abysmal. He still struggles to take a mark in his hands, he still struggles to hit a target by hand or foot. Much of this is mitigated by the quality of the personnel surrounding him, so he is still looking pretty good, but if he is every going to deserve the hype, he needs to drastically improve in both his ball-handling and game sense. In comparison, we have Watts. His skills are light years beyond NikNat's. His disposal efficiency is well above, despite paying in a team that regularly makes even the simplest pass into a clanger through sheer ineptitude. Despite the oft-repeated claims of some media personalities, he does have an opponent when playing on the HBF (or do people think that his man has dropped back to be the spare defender at the other end? Against Melbourne!). His style is far more subdued and as such less eye-catching, but his effectiveness can be measured by the very claim his detractors continue to make. They never notice his opponent, and as such assume there isn't one. Those of us who pay attention know that his opponents are rarely sighted because they can't get the ball. Obviously Watts continues to have issues he needs to work on. His core strength would be the primary issue for me. While he can and will beat his man to the ball on most occasions, if he is forced to wrestle or fight on the ground, he often finds himself outmatched. Greater core strength would help in this area. He also needs more confidence in the air. Despite his athletic ability, he rarely jumps for the ball, preferring to use body positioning, which is often beaten again by his lack of core strength with which to hold his ground. If he is to continue playing as a rebounding defender then this is the primary area he needs to improve. If they want to move him forward again at any time, the biggest issue will be teaching the midfield how to hit a leading player so that he isn't forced to wrestle against player like Rutten. All this goes to show that they are two very different players, playing in totally different positions in teams which are poles apart in terms of quality. As such, there is little point in trying to compare them. Looking at the statistics for both players, both for their respective careers and for this year, there is really little difference in their output. They have both had times where they have impacted the result of games, and far more frequently, they have both failed to do so. In all honesty, the only difference I see between them at this point in their respective careers is that one is far more marketable.

People just need to harden up and work out what's candid and what's just an automatic response. There are heaps of reasons why you would end up with an interview full of fluff, so it's always going to happen. The player might be nervous. He might be unsure about what he's allowed to say within grounds of confidentiality. He might get ambushed with a hand grenade of a question (see Brock McLean). All these things lead to your thought process feeling completely clouded. You feel rushed and you don't give yourself the time to really digest what you've been asked or really think through your answer and you tend to just follow the path the interviewer has put you on even if it's not the right one, or you allow the interviewer to put words in your mouth because you can't find any. This is so often the case: Interviewer: Do you think yesterday was a reality check for the club? Player X: Yeah, I think it probably was actually. Headline: Player X says match was reality check for club. When I post on Demonland, if I read something that I believe deserves a considered response, I usually take a few minutes to think about it. Get up, get a glass of water or whatever and really think it through before posting. The net result, I hope, is a well considered post that conveys the correct message clearly. The reason I do this is because I know that I'm a terrible on the spot thinker. I need time to think my answer through, otherwise I make a poor post. This is something I've learned through adulthood, though. I reckon if I was a 20 year old footballer doing interviews you'd have been tearing your hair out in frustration. As I said, not everyone is Jack Grimes, who is clearly a good on the spot thinker. Grimes gives a good interview. Really, though, bottom line is that I can't believe people are wailing about this. This has only been happening since footy media existed, surely we've learned to just accept that that's how it is by now. I've wasted more than enough of my lifetime's quota of words on this post.

Why are you guys repeating yourselves?

Crap thread. Watts' 2012 has been much better than his 2011. It's also been much better than a lot of other MFC players' 2012s. No excusing yesterday, he was terrible. But to ask him to be at the top of his game week in, week out, when no one else is, is a bit unfair. He was given tasks he clearly isn't capable of (Frawley's brainfades meant Watts was continually required to mop up his problems). This year, on the whole, he's shown improvement in both skill, strength and courage. I see only upside in Watts, as opposed to about 15 other MFC players. Is he going to be a CHF/FF? No. Does that matter? No.

I don't think you fully appreciate the task that Mark Neeld has been given. For Chris Scott, his task was to take a dual premiership team choc full of talent and experience, and tweak their fitness training and to get them playing less down the corridor. Mark Neeld in contrast, has had to spend his first preseason giving the players a training programme that will 'GET US' to AFL standards of fitness in 2 years. That's coming from Dave Misson, one of the most highly credentialed fitness trainers in this country... He has had to actually teach the playing group 'defensive principles' that have been ingrained in other playing groups for YEARS. Due to the fact the playing groups level of fitness was not AFL standard, and getting this aspect on track was given priority, time normally spent on 'teaching structures' and 'gameplan' was neglected until the start of the season. He has inherited an extremely unbalanced and inexperienced playing list, with senior players who have been found wanting under a tougher regime, and youngsters who have not been properly developed previously. The group of players 25 years+ are widely regarded as the worst in the competiton with the least effective leadership of any AFL club. The fact we appointed a 20 year old as a captain should illustrate this point if it wasn't already obvious. Players are clearly playing 'tired' because most of them are still adjusting to the spike in expectations required from a fitness perspective, and this seems to have had an adverse affect on performance in games to some extent. Aside from these hurdles, Mark Neeld has been charged with changing the ENTIRE culture of the football club. I've heard from various sources that opposition perception of the 'Bailey gameplan', was that it was good for 8-10 wins a season, but wouldn't hold up to being a 'finals football' gameplan. We could smack teams off the park when they weren't switched on with one-way flair heavy football, but when sides structured up well against us, and didn't allow us the time and space to operate, we had absolutely no counter. So essentially, it was a gameplan ineffective against good sides, which is surprising considering our 'giant killing' status between 2008-2011. You are being unrealistic.

Carlton thinks they can buy a premiership by sacking a contracted coach and enthroning Malthouse as to restore the blues' fortunes. This trick has already been tried - with Dennis Pagan - and there is no reason to believe that Malthouse can bring Carlton a premiership. He was a long time at Collingwood before he got lucky. Carlton's culture has been to buy flags but the lack of loyalty in this case will rebound on them.

I know that some of the stories posted on the club website are pretty soft but FFS Trengove describing the game against Adelaide as a "reality check' defies belief. What the hell does he think has been happening all year?? A reality check?? That implies they thought the team was travelling well and got knocked down a peg or two. A 69 point thrashing?? What, none of the other thrashings we have copped this year made any impact on you Jack?? Maybe he thought that coming off a 25 pt 'belting' of GWS had us staring at a finals spot. It sadly reminds me of the pathetically soft rhetoric from the Bailey days about 'getting games into players' and 'we aren't worried about results' as if by some process of osmosis simply playing 70 games will magically turn them into elite footballers (Cale Morton says hi) I want to see some comments along the line of the reality bus rather than reality check. Does this club have a clue about where it sits?? Because its supporters do and it isn't good.

I am not posting as regular because I am getting rather bored with the negativity and the constant hijacking of threads by a minority But back on topic I had the opportunity on Sunday to ask Josh Mahoney a direct question to which he gave me a direct answer, which I am sure he won't mind me quoting re Lucas Cook and Jack Fitzpatrick I will have to paraphrase a bit because memory not the same as it used to be I asked "with the rumour we are chasing Travis Cloke, does that mean we don't think Cook and Fitzpatrick will make it" He answered "don't believe everything you read about Cloke, but saying that young players need time to develop, especially key position, at least two or three years, and the Club can't afford to stay at the bottom for that time, so there is a need to try and recruit ready to go players, whilst the younger ones develop"

Fitzroy and University say hi....

"Mick, Range Rover has started another thread."

Well whoever you are bringing in, make sure you get their money and sign them up before you allow them to read Demonland.

No, he's hardly been discussed.

I'll tell you how it happens. One thing Sheedy, Allan and GWS want more than forcing us to pay overs for Viney (or correct weight depending on your point of view) is getting their hands on pick 3. If they make Melbourne choose Viney at pick 3 then we can't trade it to them for a mini-draft selection. We've already expressed interest in Hogan and perhaps Martin, or Kelly, and they'll want our pick 3 to facilitate such a trade. If Gold Coast are also prepared to trade pick 2 GWS end up with picks 1, 2, and 3 in a good draft. That's more attractive to them than making us pay more than we want for Viney. Even if they don't get their mitts on pick 2 picks 1 and 3 is also very attractive. And if they make us pay pick 3 for Viney we're less likely to trade pick 4 for a 17 year old, which makes it less likely for them to get pick 4 too. If we can secure Viney in the second round we're more likely to be prepared to get a 17 year old into the club. The Suns may bid on Viney, but I'm not sure where they rate him and they may just want to make sure of Grundy, or Toumpas. I don't know how things will unfold, but there's definitely logic in GWS not bidding for Viney.

You have to be kidding. Has obviously been told to kick more. His handballing is actually very good, and he tackles ferociously. And as Sam Blease would say, he always cracks in and has a crack. Will be a required part of this team for at least the next 2-3 years, easily. I wouldn't be surprised if he was part of a Melbourne premiership team. After all, Geelong won 3 premierships with Ling......

I caught the reality bus the other day. It was full of crazy people and junkies. All of them dressed in red and blue muttering meaningless platitudes and threatening to post them on Demonland.

Trengove's whole season has been a 'reality check'.

Thank christ Neeld isn't like that otherwise he'd talk to none of them!

they will all be dead by 2030

He took Fremantle from $8 million dollars of debt to a profitable one, and the foundations he set in place now make it in the top 4 or 5 AFL clubs for financial stability. Schwab has done the same with us, we continue to get more and more members every year even after the worst 10 years in the clubs history IMO. I don't like him getting too involved in the squad decisions but I'm more than content with his ability to set up the club, he's shown an ability to do so, and it is Mark's place to tell him to stay out of list management decisions.

This shock-jock persona you seem to have taken on is really grinding my gears RR. You make outlandish comments and the best thing is in a year if and when the tables turn, are you going to stand up and admit you got it wrong on Neeld, Watts etc. If Melbourne get good in the next 5 years I'll quit Demon Land because you'll need 50 posts just retracting statements. But that's not even the worst bit. Listen to what people say and take it on board- you refute any claims that counter yours. YES there was a go home factor with Natanui. YES we are 3 and a half years into their careers and YES Natanui has the luxury of a team that isn't useless whilst Jacks team averages 80 less possessions than his opposition. I get that you're not happy with the decision, but don't feel the need to reply to every poster who is happy with it. Natanui is currently good, Watts has been just okay, but don't think you can shut your eyes and swap it, JW will be here for 12-15 years so you better start getting on board because once the train leaves the station the only one looking foolish will be you.

Hazy, You missed the point. Nothing I wrote detracts from the fact that club officials need to be accountable and that's a given. The fact is that despite heavy scrutiny and a strong campaign by his detractors in both the media and among some who call themselves supporters of the club, Cam has the support of the Board and apparently the endorsement of the AFL and accordingly, has been appointed as CEO for the next three years. He now needs to be allowed to do his job if we're going to succeed at our core business which is to ultimately produce a successful football team. My point is that we need a unified club and strong leadership at the top to move forward and make that happen.

I hated pretty much every aspect of his game. Even his kicks were mainly short switching kicks rather than anything remotely attacking. He is a long way behind where he should be and 1 of many reasons why we are so crap. At 1 stage he had to go back with the flight but didn't commit to the contest. Instead he meekly jogged back and put his arms out to mark the ball which almost resulted in an injury. My U/8's coach wouldn't accept that. It was soft. (Nor would my APS coach but that is another debate) Lastly, as a forward he struggles due to his lack of forward nous and urgency. His leading patterns are horribly flawed, he shows an unwillingness to run at the high ball with any ferocity and he doesn't demand the footy on long searching leads. (which should be a strength for an athlete such as him) For someone who showed great ability to read the play as a backman, Watts' positioning as a forward is laughable. I cannot see the light with this kid at the moment. AS previously mentioned he will be OK to Good for his career but perhaps not the A Grader tall we so desperately need. Lift damn you!

Actually I thought the knowledgable ones idea of playing Dawes in the 2's this week to freshen up was a good one considering the VFL season is over for Collingwood and they don't play again until 2013. Then again a week is a long time in football.

The thing that the Melbourne Football Club needs the most is unity and consistency at the top and the Board has decided to offer Cameron Schwab an extra three year contract. This constitutes a fairly strong endorsement of a man who, as CEO, presided over a club whose financial position has improved from being in debt to the tune of $5m to a point where we are in a positive asset situation in excess of $6m. I've never quite known why the angst about Cameron Schwab. His critics speak in whispered tones of his interference in football matters leading to the disasters of late July 2011. I still don't know if, in the end, he deserves to be damned or praised if this is in fact the truth. We have a CEO who by all accounts is well respected by those high up at AFL and club level and on that basis, congratulations go all round on the appointment. To those who don't like it, get over it - it's time to move on.

maybe rangey could start up a poll on this yes/no/not-sure ?

I don't know why some flogs get concerned by where 'some' recruiters rate a player. Fyfe was pick 20, but where would you have him now ? Beams was pick 29, but where would you have him now ? Hannebery was in the 30's, but where would you have him now ? Redden was in the 30's, but where would you have him now ? Shuey was 19, but where would you have him now ? Yet dickwads argue over whether Viney is 6-10, or 5-15; and if he falls outside our range whether we'll say bye ? You're delusional. Viney will be at Melbourne next year no matter what pick we have to take him. And he's worth it. The guy is a leader, he's as manic as Joel Selwood, he hits targets, and despite the views of some fools he's quick. We're lucky he's ours - even if you don't recognise it. Our first decent F/S since Barassi and supporters are happy to let him go. FM.

No it was a small group, but I asked him directly, if that makes sense, the group I was with all have very good 'bulldust detectors",so what we got was an answer, I have asked a couple of similar questions to Jade Rawlings, Leigh Brown and Mark Neeld on previous occasions and you get the same consistent answer.....I for one along with Nathan Jones believe we have the right people in the right jobs.....what they are doing is for the long term....it may be painful, it requires patience but it will work......developing Key Position Players being one part of it

And I hate to do this but ...

You have valid concerns, but you lose credibility with misguided and petty inclusions like the above: What 'bloated off-field department?' We had one of the smallest footy depts incl. pro-recruiting, drafting, and sports science in the AFL and it showed. We were amateurs in these areas. What 'waste?' Is this just repeating the 'bloated' idea above? The 'stupid logo & blazers' line is just pettiness. And, finally, the poisonous culture is not something that a CEO can create and cultivate by himself - far from it. If we are talking why 186 happened then that is the domain of the senior players and the coaches before it is the CEO. And what was it like under Harris and McNamee? How was our culture then? This is just bitter. Would try to keep this nonsense out of posts as it is very similar to the nonsense about the Gardner boards that you rightly dismiss from time to time. Schwab had an awful 2011 with most of the club enjoying a similar time. The dysfunction was caused by competing interests in the club, a CEO looking for a sacrificial lamb and a coach trying to save himself - as Warwick Green pulled from Jim's notes. But events have given him a mulligan because his destructive behaviour was on the right side of history and the fact that he is the last one standing from that mess. I hope he does very well, because I support the Demons and so does he.

Lets cut the crap 12 months ago he was gone, cooked, done, put a fork in him. Now he's signed to a 3 year deal. This board has tied their future to his if he goes down they do. I'm comfortable with that. 3 years for the board, CEO and football department to turn this ship around.

I think we should sack Leigh Brown. Goals are what win games and forwards kick goals. We haven't kicked many goals so it must be Brown's fault. Also, sack Jade Rawlings because it's the defenders jobs to stop goals, and the opposition are kicking a lot goals, so it must be Rawlings fault. Yes, sack all the line coaches, and next year if we're no good again, sack all the new line coaches, and do this again every year until we somehow magically find the right combination that lifts us in to the top 4. What could possibly go wrong with this plan?

Great thread. It's a hard pill to swallow, hard like a marshmallow. There's no dancing around the fact that if the ball isn't placed in his hands, he's not going to get it himself with any urgency. Sad.

Chances are most of them will be giving it an F U Demonland as well!

I love the fact that our club is putting on a bit of a show, trying to create the illusion that we won't follow through on our promise to draft Jack and from what I've seen the only people who are starting to lose their nerve are MFC supporters. We will take him but we're going to bluff all the way to nomination day and hope that the recruiting departments of GWS and Gold Coast scare as easily as your average Demonland poster. If they do, we grab him in the second round and we have what will be viewed as a bonus early first rounder. If they hold their nerve and nominate him, we'll be spewing that we've missed out on another early selection but then we'll call his name and move on and be rapt that Jack Viney is at our club.

We are solvent. For MFC, that's a massive achievement. Given this year, that's a near miracle.

Picking up a gun inside mid who is playing against experienced AFL players as a teenager is not getting shafted in my eyes. I don't care if we have to use a high pick on him. I will not feel shafted at all if viney is read out at pick 3. At least for once we can say in years to come we got a high pick right for once.

I just want a flag so we can hold a press conference and Scwhab is there with Watts,Morton,Neeld and any other whipping boy and they all step up to the microphone, clear their throats and begin and end the press conference with F you herald sun and F you Brock Mclean and F you Energy watch and F you Wojo (still haven't forgotten) and so on.

Just get Viney. I don't give a stuff where just get him. Christ he is already playing well at VFL unlike bloody Cook. If he were to be at another club next year it would be damn hard for me to respect this club anymore.

Is this where I am supposed to pretend I know if he is doing a good job or not? I have no idea and I imagine a lot of supporters don't know. So good on you CS I think?

Neeld's CV is extremely impressive. I outlined the reasons why I think we are underperforming right now, but you seem to want to lay the blame at Mark Neeld's inability to coach. Yes, the results are bad..... for the very reasons I outlined in my previous post. It's extremely frustrating to see a lack of progress, but I don't believe he should be crucified on the basis that he's unable to turn the fortunes of a club in utter disarray into a finals outfit within a single season. Give him time. Bailey got 4 years, Neeld hasn't even completed his 1st.

I know CEOs take longer than ruckmen to develop but when is he going to put on some weight. Talk about skinny project sign-ons!

That's a pretty good start, in my book. Think we all just have to wait to see whether he ends up as a tall Luke Hodge or Brendon Goddard, both of which would be a win for MFC.

FFS... He's been good this year. He's come back from an ankle injury and had an ordinary game and you bag him out and put him in the gun? Get a friggin grip man.