Leaderboard

So here we are coming up to another game against Hawthorn. I think I hate being beaten by Hawthorn even more than I do by Collingwood. In the last couple of years we have been on the receiving end of some drubbings. Did not the unfortunate Dean Bailey coach his first game for Melbourne against Hawthorn with unpleasant results? I can remember Barry Vagg, who wore number 32 as I recall, potting the winning goal with the last kick of the day in 1968. I seem to remember Barry Bourke getting four weeks for smacking my sports teacher, the late Peter Crimmins, although I can't remember if it was in the same game. Most of all, I remember THAT game in 1987. We were sitting in the northern, (I think it's northern, but like many, I used to get disoriented at Arctic Park), end at Waverley almost directly behind the goal square. From the opening moments it was clear that Hawthorn had based their strategy around eliminating Robbie Flower. Robbie started from the goal square. At the opening bounce he led wide towards the half forward flank to receive the kick from the inevitable tap-out from Strawberry O'Dwyer. He was met in a vicious sandwich comprising Gary Ayres running in one direction, and Robert Dipierdomenico in the other. (I later heard that they had practiced during the week with a side of beef although that may be apocryphal.) Robbie had his shoulder reconstructed in the opening minute of the game. He played thereafter with one useable arm. Even though we played with half a Robbie Flower, there was no doubt that we were the better side. In a critical move in the third quarter, coach Northey sent Rod Grinter to full forward where he kicked three goals. Even though Hawthorn lifted in the last quarter and challenged, we should have won if not for the errors of three senior players in the last 15 minutes. Although I know their names I will not repeat them here. Two marked within meters of the goal line only to fluff extremely gettable goals, one chose to blaze away rather than handball over the top to Robbie, who although he had but one arm, was still the best player on the ground. When in a widely celebrated moment, Jim ran across the mark, after the siren sounded, I did not blame him then and I do not blame him now. It is a measure of our ability to mythologize, that the failure of those three senior players to nail a grand final appearance has been forgotten, yet Jim has been universally held responsible for that failure. And so, we come up against Hawthorn again. And the prospects aren't too flash. And I imagine what revenge might look like...

Well, here we are. Amidst the doom of the season we still must admit that the off-season recruitment of established names in footy development is a pleasing aspect to the Neeld era. My concern is that many on here don't realise, or refuse to acknowledge, the need to let the more talented, if poor in performance and less mature in body, to have the time to use the expertise of Craig and Misson to turn their fortunes around. There are no promises in this game but Morton, Watts, Bennell, and Bail are a few names that given the right advice can transform their bodies and give themselves a chance to succeed at this level. And remember that this doesn't occur overnight - it is a project that takes a few years. Do we still wish to delist Bennell? Do we still want to trade Morton? List management decisions must be made I believe, with an eye to the new development dynamic. I will admit this thread is a reaction to seeing Morton called a dud this morning - not on what he has done this season, but because of the previous dynamic that was not conducive to getting the best out of players.

I agree but this "chance" should last up until the bye. You can't chuck players in for one week and then drop them straight away if they aren't BOG.

So good of you to so humbly give us our "options". I for one fall in with the dolts, for all the reasons i detailed earlier in this thread (way back in the mists of time), which i can't be bothered going back over. So i will make some predictions instead. Watts will prove to be an inspired choice as number 1. He will develop gradually (roughly on the same trajectory as he had done so far, perhaps a bit more sharply with Neelds help) over the next 3 seasons, during which time these arguments will persist. His intensity will improve as it did last year. By the time he is 25 he will be selected in the All Australian team and be a regular selection thereafter (something we have not had since Flower). He will play multiple positions (as Neeld has already flagged), including key positions (possibly at both ends of the ground) and the questions over his best position will continue, but more and more the discussion will be more along the lines off "well they just need 2 watts" His intelligence will become a feature highlighted more and more by commentators He will grow into a leadership role and end up being a key mentor and role model for younger players

I thought it worth posting a summary of views about the Jack Viney and our drafting situation. There have been a few good points raised which have generally started to calm me down about perhaps having to (slightly) over pay [or most likely not get an incredible bargain] when drafting Jack Viney. Someone has raised that this problem of overpaying has somewhat been brought on by us in our inability to win games and climb the ladder. If we were sitting atop the AFL ladder, we would all be grateful to be drafting JV with our first round pick. I think that is unanimous. The fact we are languishing at the bottom of the ladder means that by default we may pay market or slightly overs for a father son prospect, something that has not happened before which no doubt adds to the frustration of Melbourne supporters who need as much hope as they can get right now. Another extremely valid point that has been raised is that by being trash this year (assume for a moment – like everyone else does – that we finish third from bottom) we get a much higher pick as our first compo pick for Scully (pick #4). So we may pay slightly overs for Jack because we are junk, but we get much better compo pick for the same reason. Say it is ‘decided’ unanimously by recruiters and commentators alike that JV is rated #5 in the draft. We are effectively getting players rated #4 and #5 in the pool with our picks #3 and #4. If we finished top of the table we would be getting player rated #5 and player rated something like #18. Given the lottery of the draft, from a pure recruiting perspective we are better off with the current situation. So we are fortunate in this regard. Of course, like everyone, I wish we could get players rated #3, #4, our next compo pick AND JV, but that is very optimistic, and I suppose it’s not really worth thinking it as a likely outcome, rather like winning the lottery if that happens. I do think the AFL needs to think about FS selections, as you don’t want a club paying overs simply to keep a family member running at the club (no matter what the premium of payment is). Other points raised about GWS and GC potentially getting compensation picks which might change the order of the draft are worthy of discussion too. The AFL are in for a hard time when deciding these things. GWS have deliberately chosen youth for the future rather than to win as many games as they can this year (sound familiar??). So do they deserve a priority pick for season 2012 performance? What happens if MFC win less than 5 games this year. Do we deserve a priority pick? It would mean that over the past 6 years we have won <5 (2012), 8 (2011), 8 (2010), 4 (2009), 3 (2008), 5 (2007) games. We have been absolutely hopeless. Assuming 4 wins this year as a guess, that is a winning % of 24%. Terrible. Last year that winning ratio saw Brisbane, Port and GC get priority picks. Can the AFL really say that this year a club like Melb does not deserve one? One argument posted previously suggested that MFC would not get one because we already have so many picks in this draft. This can’t be used as consideration for a decision by the AFL as we could have stockpiled those picks for next year, or the year after. The fact we have compo picks for Scully is to compensate us for losing a key member of our side, it can’t then be used as a penalty when assessing the merit of us getting a priority pick for poor performance. All in all, I am comfortable wherever we take Jack Viney so long as he is rated a top 5 player. I am staggered to look back and see our winning record since 2006 it makes me so frustrated. What I would love to see happen is a situation where MFC get JV with second round, pick GREAT players with our other 3 picks in the first round and if we are very poor and win less than 5 games this year (a chance) that we push hard to receive a priority pick from the AFL on the same terms as everyone else. All this and we are less than one third through the season! Talk about becoming masochistic!

Pointless exercise, lets get over 2012, FCS

As I posted somewhere else, this is the first time in decades that I believe there is a coherent plan which will develop the team. Previously there may have been a lack of resources but I had no sense that there was a coordinated approach which would combine gameplan, fitness and personnel. Now I can see (metaphorically) the development occurring. Changing the gameplan, fitness and personnel takes time, but I feel much happier with what looks to me to be a plan for the future being implemented now.

There will be 8-10 players in our 2015 best team that aren't listed in the OP's offering. At least half of them aren't yet on our list.

why not focus on BOTH we need to HTFU just like other clubs would and fight for every inch of territory and not just roll over when it gets difficult you'll never never know if you don't give it a go

The 'handshake deal' can only be formalised after the F/S biiding process. If anyone gets effed around it will be them if we pull a fast one. Besides - if they want Pick 3, then they shouldn't make us use it for Viney. And we wouldn't cry foul - we would have tried the only thing to get Viney into the second round and we would have failed. Move on.

Who? Aaron Davey? Troy Davis?

And duck our heads and shoulders to milk a few frees a la Weagles.

Cam Mooney spoke about Geelong on the radio recently and how early on in Bomba Thompson's time, he, Ling, Chapman, Enright, Bartel, Corey, Steve Johnson and Mackie all played games when they didn't deserve them at times, but then bang, when they all hit 100 and surpassed 100 games, it just clicked. Food for thought.

I actually heard that he was more [censored] off that no one on Demonland can spell his name correctly?

I love sen it's great if you love your footy

I can't believe that this post has slid by with barely a snifter of reaction!! This is the first "official" notice from the club (that I have seen) in regards to what they might do if the situation we are all taking about happens. And what does it say/imply? That the club would consider not picking JV if we had pick 3 and he was only rated top-10! OK, you and I know that they have every intention of getting JV if possible, but Neeld is very clearly here starting the media game of creating doubt in the mind of GWS and GC. This is exactly what Olisik and myself, and some other posters, have said the club would do, and lays to waste the ridiculous posts that some have been putting forward where they claim to have inside knowledge that the club rates him as near enough to a number 1 pick and will be happy to pay anything for him. Again, all the club has to do is create enough doubt in the minds of GWS and GC that they might potentially lose their top 2 pick and have to use a just top-10 pick instead. And, now, the club is starting to do that. Thank you, Neeld.

Go the biff

Don't think your efforts aren't greatly appreciated though, KC.

In 1998 the Lions finished dead last at seasons end. http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ladder?year=1998&pt=SE&st=SE&sb=p They hit rock bottom when the dogs pilled on 11 goals to 1 in the first quarter. http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=852 3 years later they go on to win the flag.... Let's hope that history repeats itself ;-)

We need a montage.

We know we are really becoming desperate when we dredge through history and relate to Phoenix like resurrections to salve our misfortunes. There is hope. Japan rose again after being nuked. The Black Death did not wipe out all of humanity. Not all Christians were eaten by lions. And the bookie odds look good that we will win at least one flag in the next 100 years.

Where do you think Dean Bailey got his strategy on defensive play from?

No matter what you think of Watts, at least we didn't draft Greg Oden: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7908766/a-rare-interview-former-no-1-overall-pick-greg-oden-injury-plagued-career

Loving the fact that those who have come in have had to string 3 or more solid games of VFL before getting a call up. Means those in the side get a couple of weeks to prove themselves, and if they don't, they know they will be facing at least 2 or 3 solid weeks in the VFL before a chance of a recall. It means the guys coming in know they have earned it and have a bit of confidence. Would love to see Jack Watts come back into the side in 2 or 3 weeks, with 15 goals and couple of BOG's to his name.

Couldn't agree more, Deeoldfart! Very pleased that Bennell and Fitzpatrick have been awarded for good form - very good form in the case of the former. I'd have made the Fitz for Sellar change even if Sellar hadn't been injured. Petterd for Dunn was a pleasant surprise for me. As I've said a lot of times this year I believe Petterd is the superior player (and it seems obvious they're both competing for one spot), but Dunn did enough most weeks to hang on to his spot by the skin of his teeth. This is a golden opportunity for Ricky - if he works hard enough he should be able to hold Dunn out of the side for the rest of the year. Perfect changes for mine.

Ah the memories........or is it aaaaargh the memories? I do remember the GREAT Robbie Flower saying in an interview after the game, and in his book, that he missed but should have kicked an easy 'snap' goal in second (from memory) which would have also changed the result......but nobody highlighted that. I felt sorry for Jim on and for a long time after that day but for a lot of the past 15 or so years I felt more pain for Robbie Flower because even if we had won he wouldn't have played in the big one regardless because of his broken collar bone. After the event I always held out that one day Big Jim would be apart of a Premiership. It didn't happen in his playing days and now it is a 'fait accompli' that, that won't happen for him now that he has left this life. I will always have a small void where I believed Jim's missed premiership should have been.......but as I have been instructing my kids about life...I now need to heed my own advice....."life is not fair so just suck it up princess and get on with it". Go Dees ...Do it for Jim...and Robbie....and Gazza......and Oz.......and......all those long suffering sub 48 year old supporters......and ME.

Great to see. Consistently solid (or better) form at Casey over several weeks rewarded with promotion. Exactly as it should be!

You have to make those judgements on a case by case basis. I don't think there is a set formula or time on when a player should or shouldn't be omitted.

I don't think you do hear rangey I never talked about playing a game of bluff and poker (like some have) I talked about doing win/win deals with gws/gcs of course, if we can't do a deal and our hand is forced we will take him with our first rounder but until our hand is forced we should try and come up with something it's not rocket science

Obviously isolating Clark on an underdone Gilham or Schoenmakers is our best one on one match up but I have significant doubts Hawthorn will let us do it. And if both teams dropped a man back I feel it would only play into Hawthorn's superior midfield winning the game. I'm concerned there is no match up for Tom McDonald with Hawthorn only having Franklin, Roughead and Hale as talls who will go forward (and one of them has to be in the ruck). So really after Frawley and Rivers, with Garland playing small who does McDonald go to? I get concerned when we carry extra tall defenders who aren't needed. With Sellar out I'm super keen to throw McDonald to CHF and let him have a run there. It would at least tire out the other tall defender who isn't on Clark. Fitzpatrick would also get a nice match up at least height wise. If they don't play McDonald forward for at least the last quarter if the game is over but hopefully the whole night I'll be very disappointed.

Everyone here knows those names. 20 years later my brother was surfing in Qld when he saw one of those three names also surfing. The surfer in question did not appreciate being sledged by my brother in the Qld surf. He thought he'd escaped feral Melbourne supporters with long memories.

Do yourself a favour Redleg and extend ...

According to SEN Jack Watts did enough at Casey to earn a call-up for the Hawks game and will play tomorrow. Not sure I agree with this another week at Casey might have been the go. I hope they decide to leave him in the forward 50 with Clark instead of playing between the arcs. The kid can kick goals he just needs time to settle down there.

As long as JV's jaw and Mojo both repair 100% we will draft him. He has the toughness of his dad. If there is a better draft choice than JV, he is going to have to be beyond exceptional. Although the media told me Tom $cully was exceptional so i will not hold my breath. We know how good Viney is. He has done the test drive.

Saw an AFL tweet stating that Clarkson is unsure about starting Luke Hodge who is being visited by his old friend General Soreness. He said they will probably select him, but that they are not taking any chances... which in my mind at least, is code for, he won't be playing.

There's not another kid in the entire country who better suits our needs. It's that simple.

I didn't hear Cam Mooney on the radio with Harford a couple of days ago, but my Brother just told me about their conversation with regards to Watts. Mooney stated that Watts had more talent in his little finger than himself, but that his lack of intensity at contests will make, or break him. He stated that Watts had to play like his life depended on it and that he had to do it for every minute of every game. He said that was the requirement for modern footy in 2012. Harford asked whether you can develop that type of effort if it doesn't come naturally. He added that he didn't think you could. Mooney disagreed and said that you can develop it, but if he doesn't he won't make it. It pretty much sums up my views. Can Watts develop his effort and intensity and put his body on the line like his life depended on it for every game he plays ? I doubt it, Jose doesn't, and Deonox doesn't think he needs to. I know who I hope is right.

My point is a compliment to this - Bailey never got the development resources that we have now. Coaches are important but professional development of a players body can take their game to the next level because they can actually accomplish what their talent has promised but their body has not been able to deliver.

He plays like that now, but that's not to say he can't change, and isn't changing. And it wouldn't be the first time a lot of people regarded as AFL "experts" have been very very wrong.

Morton under Bailey didn't develop all that much.... in the first couple of years we pumped games into our young players, they would have had confidence that they could make mistakes and not have to worry about being dropped all the time. In the last couple of years under Bailey, he was injured at bad times, and was shuffled around within the team, and wasn't settled into a role. He has more confidence as a result of being settled under Neeld... and hence shows signs of improvement. Not all players at other clubs are developing fine.... Mitch Thorp? Xavier Ellis? these are high picks that have not exactly worked out for Clarkson. We just know the Dees list more intimately than other clubs.

I agree, its frustrating, but name the other team who had an absolute dud of a coach, who have a severe lack of senior leadership, who has now hired a new coach with the complete opposite gameplan that's doing well?

Obscure to some. When Sheedy was coach of Essendon he commented after the Melbourne Essendon final in 2004 that he was powerless to stop McDonald's clearance work. It is probably not a coincidence that the same Sheedy has now recruited McDonald to GWS. Sheedy was probably also relieved that McDonald missed the 2000 grand final.

If Maloney and Jamar leave we can afford Dangerfield, Caddy & Stanton

if Moloney and Jamar leave...we can afford patrick dangerfield $$$

I have posted elsewhere on this. By any reasonable assessement, the Prendergast / Bailey years were a lost opportunity. Take a critical look at our Round 1 and Round 2 picks over that time. One dimensional comes to mind.

...and he was a leader.

I can only assume that either GWS or GC would meet with Viney before that made a nomination that could commit them to taking him with pick 1 or 2. Surely all that needs to happen then is that young Jack tells them he is keen to stay in Victoria and if they draft him he would seek a trade back to Vic and the end of the standard 2 year deal. There is no way either club would risk that happening, Jack can slip to us in the second round and the AFL has no grounds (or proof at least) to accuse us of draft tampering, a quiet word from Todd to Jack at the dinner table would be hard for even the world police at the AFL to investigate.

I think any player 28 or over should be concerned about they're security & longevity @ Melbourne, as we're om a cultural shift, following our list rebuild. 2 new Young captains & the continuing promotiion of all under 26 yrs, is sign enough of the direction we are forging. The writing is boldly placed on the whiteboard, for all to see. If you want to play till 31, move now. It's probably time for us to do a Hawthorn & trade where ever we can to our advantage. Now whos looking through a half open window peering down on Us?

Indeed. And to think i was going to suggest having to wait 10 years but thought that way over the top (an may well have caused a valve to pop). Anyway we don't want or need a wuffian like Darling at the MFC. I'll bet he didn't even go to a private school. And if he did i bet it wasn't in the class of our Melbourne colleges. Darling isn't fit to shine David Cordner's boots (who by the way was our last last great forward, David that is not his boots)

And Bassett, and Jarman.