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Arguing over who should be in or out at Melbourne is a bit like arguing over a preference for the electric chair or lethal injection. Young players need the senior group to lead the way. Without any exaggeration our senior group, and I don't mean leadership group, is the worst I've seen in my time following footy. Our 25+ age group has no-one that inspires confidence, or impacts games. Green, Davey, Sylvia, Moloney, Rivers, Jamar, Joel MacDonald and Stefan Martin are the only players over the age of 25 on our list. Green has had a fine career, but he's finished and the rest are disappointing and certainly miles off the upper echelon of the AFL. Those group of 8 players are the reason we're crud. The fact we only have 8 players over the age of 25 is also one of the reasons we're crud. Hawthorn have 19. Carlton and Collingwood have 14. But more importantly some of their senior players are bona fide stars of the game, which is a far cry from our miserable 8. Even the Crows and Port have 13. There is talent on the list, but we can't expect young players with less than 50 games experience to dominate games of footy. Col Garland feels like he's been around forever, but he's still 23 (nearly 24) and has only 60 games to his name. His best footy is ahead of him. And for these reasons I'm not slitting my wrist and can still glimpse the future. To all and sundry, even the experts, it looks like our list is crap, and the dearth of quality senior players ensures we're in for a tough year, but I like plenty of our young players. It's really disappointing that due to injury concerns we haven't seen enough of Strauss, Tapscott, and Gysberts, but if you put many of our developing players in the West Coast side they too would look terrific and be lauded by the football world. How would Andrew Gaff have looked if he was running around for Melbourne yesterday ? You'd see his talent, but he wouldn't have had half the game he did. Unfortunately, there's going to be more pain until we get strength and preseasons into the younger players. When their time does come - and it will - I'm expecting a pretty steely resolve. These tough years will be etched into their psyche. Akermanis, Simon Black, Bradshaw, the Scott Bros, Keating, Leppitsch, Power, Chris Johnson and McCrae all played in 98 when the Lions won the spoon. They'd all played less than 100 games. Obviously it's drawing a ridiculously long bow to suggest we'll win one flag, let alone three, but there would have been times through that season when Lions' supporters doubted their talent. When some would have been questioning whether their kids were good enough ? Needless to say, in 1998 not one Brisbane player made All Australian. In 2001 they had 4 and by 2002 they had 6. All of those players were on the list in 98. That said, we're no Lions of 99 who rebounded back up the ladder with a new coach. They had Lappin, Voss, Alistair Lynch, Ashcroft and a couple of other senior players showing the way, which gets back to the heart of our problem. We're in for some more hurt, but I'm certain we do have some very good young players on our list and while that's the case I know things aren't as bad as they seem.

People want him to rant and rave and be out of control. Apparently there's something wrong with being calm and measured - it means you've got no HEART or SPIRIT (because they mean more if you write them in BIG LETTERS) or some other such hyperbolic nonsense.

That is pretty defeatist. I am not suggesting all is great but it is not that bad. We don't have major sponsors atm but they will come. We have a $10m asset unlike ever before. Today we played a very good team, at their home ground, in the heat with only 2 missing from their best side. We had several good players out. We had a real crack in the first half and copped a 21 - 1 free kick count against us, which is an AFL record. They got at least 5 goals from the umpires in that first half to our none. We were ahead in the contested possessions. Clearly then we fell away in the second half. We are weak in disposal and running power and in the midfield. These things will be addressed and improvement will come. We could have 3-4 new mids next year. Joel Mc, Green and a few others will be gone. Tom Mc looked good. Magner continues to impress. Amongst the [censored] there are a few positives. I am feeling as down as you but I won't give up, not after investing 55 years in this bloody club.

I'd like to ask the administrators and moderators of the site why posts questioning the performance of Cameron Schwab are being routinely deleted from threads, particularly the 'New Sponsors' thread? Is this a democratic forum where one can freely and respectfully opine, or a mouthpiece where only certain views are allowed? Sad if the latter, as appears to be the case.

Always such a downer stuie. I genuinely enjoyed watching the game today, drunk as I was. Feel like we've become the mighty ducks and neeld is our emilio estevez. Still, what was enjoyable was I felt like we were better than last week. Neeld & co are moulding us into something and I think what some people are missing is that we're a rubbish team and you can't just get angry to solve the problem. It's rough but the bailey/prendegast era has quietly [censored] us, this is rough, feel free to have your whinge about that, BUT right now we have possibly the best coaching structure in the league and finally have some decent facilities to go with it. So if there was ever a time to jump on the bandwagon and place your blind dumb undeserving faith in this team, it's now. You can see now why so much of preseason was spent on fitness cos we can be competitve for a quarter and then we have nothing left. The [censored] that this coaching group has inherited very sadly needs to be rebuilt from the foundations up, I'd hope everyone can see that. Maybe going in and tweaking or whatever, getting something simpler happening would get us to 9th for a few years but what they're trying to do is get us to finally win that premiership asap and so we're dealing with the garbage now for the diamonds later. For whatever reason, I'm more optimistic about this team than ever and will keep going along to each game to watch us get hammered because I believe we're finally headed in the right direction. So whinge all you like, whatever floats your boat. See you on the other side. TL:DR Ride the wave, cos a premiership's comin. Also... so drunk.

Can we stop the Nic Nat thing? He wanted to stay in Perth . Jack Watts is good . If you hate yourself for being a Demon either take lots of drugs like I do or quit and barrack for GWS. FFS cut out the "I give up" stuff.

Just got back from Casey Fields where Casey won by 1 point. It was a bit difficult to make out the Dees players at times but here are my insights for what they are worth. Fitpatrick continues to develop. He puts himself into a good position in almost every contest and is super quick for a big bloke. I am not a fan but he impressed me today. But his kicking is going to restrict his influence at AFL level. Leigh Williams had a shocker. Tried hard and he is coming off illness but his marking and in-close disposal was ordinary. Sam Blease is on shakey ground. He runs well but that is it. He tried to get around every opponent and often couldn't, his kicking long to position often ended up with an opposition mark, but his defensive efforts were absolutely horrible. He only ran when Casey had the ball and his intensity around the packs is absent. I am a fan of this boy but I don't want him doing this in a Dees jumper. Tapscott was OK. Some great stuff but only on 3 - 4 occasions. Seemed to be a bit lost today. Cale Morton was excellent. He put his body on the line on numerous occasions, inlcuding standing beneath pack marking, and was poised and deliberate in his disposal. In the last quarter he held his nerve when the crowd was yelling at him to kick it: he held it for as long as he could and fed it off at the right time. An impressive game. Jai Sheehan had a lot of the ball across half back and is a really good kick, but a lot of his disposlas were under no pressure so it is a bit difficult to gauge. His timing for defensive spoilng was good. Couch was good, and excellent in-close during important moments. Troy Davis. A really good game. Dominated his opponent for most of the game, often left one out and won most of the one-on-one stuff. Good thinking and disposal off half back. The game was a blatant lesson about the importance of the half-forward line. There were a lot of stoppages (which Frankston won really well), and there were a lot of free possessions across half back. But the the half-forwards running into the right place at the right time was a lack for both teams. Frankston got it right in the last quarter and almost stole the game. The only Casey player who played a good game through half forward was Fitzpatrick when he rested there. But he would not excell there at AFL level. There is no strong half forward at Casey whom the Dees could promote, on today's form. If someone could tell me who is no. 14 for Frankston that would be good. Read the game really well, used his body well, was quick for his size and and outstanding kick. Morton, Couch, Davis should be considered for promotion. Fitzpatrick maybe. They may promote Tapscott but it would be on potential not form.

Thought Neeld was good in his conference. Better than last week. Don't know what some people expect him to say.

What a pathetic thread, yes lets all give up. Lets expect the club and players to rally but we all just give up. Yes it is bad now but I am not throwing away about 55 years of fanatical devotion to just give up. It will turn around and I will be there when it does. There is lots to fix but it will be fixed. One good draft, picking well, can give us a new midfield. That is our main problem on the field. Our list will be turned around quickly. It will change and I will be there when it does. My only alternative is to give up footy and I won't. To those who want to quit, grow some balls. Go Dees.

Well it's hard to gauge success solely by premierships, when there's only one trophy worth winning. By that measure, 17 clubs will ultimately fail each year. But this is the reason we chose to rebuild our list so dramatically, and why a champion like McDonald was sacked. The club and its supporters were prepared to endure 5+ years of pain in order to give ourselves the best opportunity to win a premiership. The reason supporters are so disheartened at the moment is because the plan doesn't appear to be working - after 5 years, the 100 point drubbings continue as our prized recruits are outshined by a player off the rookie list. When I think about this mindset, I spare a thought for the minnows in the English Premier League. How do they value a season, knowing that every trophy will almost certainly be taken out by the big 4? Is it a success just to avoid relegation or do they just savour each victory along the way? Melbourne has given us some wonderful games, stories and moments over the years - are they all worthless without the validation of a premiership? Of course not. I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my concerns. We've gone backwards since 2010 and I can't see where the improvement is coming from. I don't know how much of a factor the loss of James McDonald has been, but it's plainly obvious that importance of true leadership was grossly undervalued. To assume that any player could easily take on the mantle and set the standard for the team was a huge mistake.

Look, it's development of our recruits that is troubling, but... It is still a red herring in terms of explaining our current plight as the best teams of today are not those formed from 2007-2011 (the drafts we worry we didn't do so well in). Geelong: Corey, Chapman, Enright (99), Bartel, and Johnson (01). Hawthorn: Hodge, Mitchell (01), Sewell (02), Roughhead, Franklin, and Lewis (04). Collingwood: Ball (01), Jolly, Maxwell (02), Shaw(03), Cloke (04), Pendlebury, and Thomas (05). We have Green, Jamar, Rivers, Davey, Sylvia, Bate, Dunn, Jones, and Batram from 1999 to 2004. These are the drafts we are paying for, and/or the development we didn't get right.

Out Royal. Has anybody noticed that this guy is coaching poison. In 2010 we had a good developing backline coached by Sean Wellman. Fast track to 2011 and Royal takes over suddenly the backline leaks goals like a sieve. In 2010 we had a midfield that held a lot of promise. Fast track to 2012 and Royal is the Mid field coach and the mids are a pathetic rabble who are not competitive.

I'm sick of this argument. We've been through this a hundred times on Demonland before. Only a couple of other clubs were outright looking for a KPF after the Gold Coast snatched Tom Lynch at pick 11 ... us and Carlton and one other who I can't recall. We went for Lucas Cook instead of Jack Darling who is already a gun and don't give me a crap about him only being good because he's in a good side. WE STUFFED IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went to the game yesterday and it's quite incredible to watch the Eagles structure up when they get the footy. The speed at which they got into position and the confidence they had when passing the footy was awesome to watch. They just knew where their team mates were going to be. This is the same team that won the wooden spoon in 2010. I'm sure that Neeld referring to the Eagles as slick, and that our players getting a close-up look at them will only benefit their development and understanding of what Neeld is trying to implement in the way of a game plan. People said that the Eagles had tanked in 2010 but that's far from the truth. The Eagles of 2010 were sticking to their guns and building a brand of football that wins games and earns finals appearances. It was a long year for them but it appears to be paying off. We need to give our players and new coaching staff the same opportunity to implement then consolidate their new brand. I understand we absolutely have to turn a few blokes over at years end, but let's all take a deep, deep breath and let the experts play their hand.

I will back us to beat Richmond. We had plenty of excuses in round 1 and 2. This game will turn our season around. I am in my bomb shelter now and am waiting for the prophets of doom and their collection of bricks to descend.

What a rubbish topic. Curses? Really? Almost as ridiculous as some guy coming back from the dead...

I think that this is the main reason. Chris Judd has been instrumental in Marc Murphy's development, Hawthorn youngsters are shown the way by Hodge, Sewell and Mitchell, Scott Pendlebury is now the main man at Collingwood, but at least he and Daisy Thomas had Nathan Buckley on the list and teaching them in their first two years. The Bulldogs are down the ladder, but Liberatore, Wallis and Clay Smith have Boyd and Cross to set the standards. The good news is we now have a fine coaching structure and some really talented youngsters that will come through together. Tapscott, Strauss, Trengove, Gysberts, Howe, Watts, Blease, Viney, Tynan, Davis and Gawn plus two first round picks from this year's bumper draft will all be around their mid twenties at the same time.

If anything it is the contents of [censored] threads such as this that make you want to give up, not the MFC or its players..... Our supporters are so weak

I FACE YOUR DEMONS REFUSE TO GIVE UP, AND WILL STILL MAKE THE 600 ODD KM ROUND TRIP DOWN TO WATCH MY BELOVED MELBOURNE PLAY. Please note. The statements listed immediately above are the sole opinion of the noted writer of the above document.The information should be construed as an open opinion and information contained in this document represents facts to the best of the writers knowledge and should not be viewed as permanent certified fact but that as the way the information is interpreted by the opinion of the author

He has to draft well this year or else! We have Viney in the bag and two compo picks in a superdraft, which could be handy for a trade for one of CHF/HBF/FP. He needs to draft an elite kicking, solide yet pacy HBF and MUST, MUST GET IT RIGHT! Last chance??

We've been getting educated for 5 years but haven't made it past prep...

Well said Big Red - I heard that comment from Gerard too and thought it was spot on. People bang on about effort and heart etc. and it does play a part but at the end of the day if you don't have the cattle you are going to get exposed no matter how good your effort is. Midfield quality is an obvious one - at the moment Jones is looking like the only player with the ability to get the ball often enough and use it well. And he's a good solid player rather than an A grade midfielder. Magner has been great as a grunt player. It's just devastating that with all the high picks we've had we haven't built a dominant midfield. We haven't even produced an A grade midfielder yet. Trengove and Gysberts offer hope to become A graders, but it's just hope at the moment based more on potential than evidence. There are too many similar types, too many blokes with poor disposal. Too many who lack pace and who struggle to run and spread. That's why I liked $cully so much for what he added to the mix in terms of his pace and ability to gut run. The few players in the team who can regularly hit targets don't get the footy enough and the few players with pace don't go in hard enough. At the moment it's just a mishmash of players with each possessing some strengths but ultimately having glaring weaknesses. And the midfield depth is a good point too. Most teams have specialist talls and smalls, with the rest of the team made up of midfielders. We seem to have an obsession with 6''1 flankers who can't play midfield. The modern game requires 9 or 10 of the 22 blokes that can go through the midfield, I'd say we had about 7 today. If we do finish in the bottom three or four then we will potentially have the chance to pick up two top 5 players, a pick 12 and then Jack Viney as an early second rounder (assuming you can't use compensation picks on father-son(?) and that the bottom two or three don't bid for Viney). If we do have these picks then it'll be absolutely critical that we pick up some outstanding midfield talent along with Viney. No more mistakes. Things can turn really quickly when you start to build a good midfield. At the moment we are simply uncompetitive in there, arguably the worst midfield in the comp. Embarrassing and gut-wrenching to watch. I also thought it was disgusting that no one even went up to Waters after he ran through Grimes. We let our captain get flattened and do nothing about it. I don't even care if someone gets reported - you don't let your captain go down and not react. [censored] weak.

Like you Redleg, I saw some positives in the tripe shown today. Many here don't realize how energy sapping constant free kicks to the opposition are. And the amount of diving, head ducking and shoulder dropping (a Selwood family trait) that was rewarded was unbelievable - are WC trained to do it? Tommy Mac showed that he will be a player, the captains gave their all and Clark (who, if the maggots were consistent, would have received 5 frees) kicked 5 without taking a mark. The pharmacist pointed out that the WC midfield group were considered no good 3 years ago, but stuck to their structures and roles - and look at them now. I'll wait until the end of the season before I contemplate the slashing of wrists and the burning of personnel that regularly occurs on this site. And the comparisons with Fitzroy are laughable. The one thing that my 58 years of watching the various forms of dross served up by this club has provided is an appreciation of the 4 winning grand finals I've attended. The present coach has given me genuine hope that I'll see another one before I move on.

I think Russian's poor performances are getting under the radar. He's gone seriously downhill this year and last year.

We have a serious problem with our senior players and this issue dates back to the Daniher years. I'm not at all surpised at our current situation however recent drafting decisions have made things worse. My prediction is that things are going to get even worse before they improve, but Neeld is still the person to lead us

I envy my wife. She hates sport, she seems so much happier.

When are Schwab and Connolly going to to get the sack? I am starting to believe these guys are responsible for the ongoing mutiny at the club?

Im from Corowa, the Corowa 2nds had there first win in 2.5 years, there on a roll give them a run...

Out: *Jamar ( a confidence player who currently has none, and is the slowest player in the AFL. Jack Fitzpatrick a much better option given he can at least get to where the ball is, assuming Martin back as well), *MacDonald ( not up to it, and Tom McDonald is going to be a ripper. Not overawed, good overhead, good engine, and makes good decisions) *Bennell ( not up to it either, too many chances, just doesn't get the ball enough), *McKenzie ( gutsy and hard, but just not talented enough) In : *Martin (let the guy ruck and rove, all day if he wants,which he did bloody well last year when Jamar went down) * Fitzpatrick, *Moloney, *Couch ( our McKenzie alternative)

That is exactly why he should do it. He is fresh. Not tainted.

Hahaha top thread.

Did you hear? Scully's gone too, and Dean Bailey's been axed. He's the one who came after Daniher.

I just can't stomach a coach pulling out "positives" straight after a game like that... Where's the pride? Where's the anger/disappointment? Where's the HEART?! I can't cop these political answers when my club is in so much need of soul.

I don't think his spirit is broken, i think he now realizes the absolute magnitude of his new job.

yep we are approaching 5 years since the sacking of Daniher and we are actually a worse football side now then we were then, despite getting 20 top-20 draft picks or whatever number it is. Absolutely staggering. At least in the Daniher years we got to think we were good 50% of the time, I would kill to be back in that sort of situation. Mediocrity would be bliss! Bring back Neale!

Analysis at its best

Spot on, the 2001 Hodge, Ball and Judd superdraft we picked up Luke Molan, Steven Armstrong, Aaron Rogers and Brad Miller. Any of the following players could be playing for us Brent Reilly, Nick Dal Santo, James Kelly, Jason Gram, Steve Johnson, Sam Mitchell, Leigh Montagna, Jarrad Waite, Dane Swan or Brian Lake now that hurts. The 2002 draft was no where near as strong but we still missed out on some quality players. We picked up Daniel Bell, Nick Smith, Jarad Rivers, Gary Moorcroft, Cam Hunter and Ryan Ferguson. Players who could be playing for us include Kade Simpson, Adam Selwood, Ryan Crowley, Nic Malceski or Daniel Merett. I know I would love Kade Simpson in our midfield at the moment.

18 months ago my god mother was diagnosed with agressive cancer. i was knocked and could see no light at the end of a long tunnel. she grabbed the bull by the horns and with the help of family and friends fought the bastard off and is now enjoying life and a grandson. i felt like [censored] at subi today and thought to myself how the fook are we going to improve and i couldn't think of anything barring snarring some quality mids from somewhere. so for those wallowing in self pity for following the dees and talking of the end of the club HTFU. Did we learn nothing from Jimmy he never gave up even in the clubs darkest hour or when doctors gave him little time to live. Se must carry on his fight 2011 showed us you get nothing cause you have young talent, the club has put the neccessary sources into the footy dept but ffs if you thought it was going to change in one pre season you were mistaken. And in closing i dont give a fook that some have waited 48 years, either be prepared for some more pain before we move forward or take up something else for th next two years before coming back!

You make some points which could be considered valid but the fact is I am sick and tired of excuses or reasons or however you want to frame it. If I see one MFC player giving an interview this week spouting platitudes I will SPEW UP. Media blanket on the club until we get a sponsor and win a game. Other than that I don't want to hear a damn thing coming out of the club.

1) Inventing the sport

Odds on sportsbet are shortening rapidly

The ones that stay the course through thick and thin and continue to be positive .Knock the players if they are weak but 23 frees to 1 in a half makes it impossible to win a game .The result was decided by the umpires and the crowd by half time .I would give up if I had to play with those umpires.he players did well to keep chasing .

Chased leather like all of them .The bathwater goes .The baby stays.

Do you really think I'm satisfied with mediocrity? Four players played okay last week, and four this week. Jack Watts was one of them. Why consider delisting him when there's at least 26 players on our list who are performing worse than him.

I've seen this a few times now and I call BS on this - how can you lose the players after one pre-season? If it is true then it is an indictment on the players and not the coach - the players have to go not the coach. What right do they think they have to complain or whinge about the coach when most of them have been rubbish their entire careers? The mindset that would require that train of thought is just astounding. Or it could be the players are just soft lazy and rubbish. They were last year and it looks like nothing's changed.

I'm a disappointed too but we seem to have gone from wanting to savie the club following the Energy Watch debacle to eating our own. In the last six months we have appointed a new coach, a new football department, fitness coach and heavens knows what. The world has changed in more ways than one for this group. They are learning a new game plan and have totally different expectations on them both individually and as a team. The last month has been horrendous both on and off the field BUT I am not burying my team just yet. I have to have hope that this group will learn to work together just as Neeld plans. I will not give up and neither should you - any of you. Instead I intend to look for the positives and they will always be there. Magner has been a great find but we can also ask why he is succeeding where others are failing and perhaps the answer lies in the fact he is a mature player, given a great opportunity and that he is not scarred by what has gone before. I will be patient and hopefully there will be joy for us before the season ends. If not, I will shed a tear or more, crack a bottle of wine and think of the future.

Ummm... have you seen the game or are you going by radio or just what you think would be right? After WATCHING the game I thought Watts, Howe, and Petterd were at least consistent in running and effort, but I guess it's just easier to pick on forwards playing out of position than more popular guys like Garland, Frawley, Rivers, Jamar, Green etc who all had terrible games.

R.I.P. M.F.C. I'D LIKE TO APOLIGISE TO MY KIDS FOR DRAGGING THEM INTO THIS AWFUL MESS OF A CLUB.

How about approaching Bank of Melbourne for BoJ sponsorship. They're solid and reputable and should be impressed with the way we as a club have handled some pretty tough issues.

Thanks for letting us know. We appreciate it. On a side note, it is tempting to note that while knee recos are difficult to come back from, the career of Gawn would probably best be likened to the one that this thread is named after. Jamar didn't play regularly until his 5th year when he was understudy to White (22 games). He showed little, and showed even less the next year in an injury and form riddled year (10 games). He then doubled his hitouts the following year and showed a little before injury came calling again (14 games). He continued his improvement in his 8th year but was brought down by a foot stress frature and quad issues (7 games). In his 9th year he was AA (22 games). In his tenth year he did his PCL (15 games). Take this story as you wish. What I take from it is: Gawn doesn't have to be a consistent back-up until 2014 and he has until 2017 to be a consistent number one ruck. He has plenty of time...