Need more evidence that Melbourne are tanking?

[Madness 44]

We will lose by 126 points, and I think I'm being generous...

[DemonDave 1,078]

So with Carroll dropped, that only leaves White and Junior Mac as our players to have played every game this year. Wonder what the all-time low for this figure is? 1? None? We must be close!

Ferg has played some good footy when given his chance, but unfortunately Sylvia selfishly took him out against the Bulldogs last year, and he broke his thumb after a promising start against Wet Toast, at least they've given him a few weeks to show his worth when fit...

[drdrake 3,047]

Maybe the club is under Salary cap pressure also. The club wouldn't of budgeted on so many players being used, you might find guys like Bizz, PJ, CJ maybe on low base but high per game rate. Could be clutching at straws but it may be a reason.

The club is also trying to find a fringe player that other clubs may want. Key defender Ferguson, Ruck Jamar, give them some game time hopefully they show something and we can get a third round pick for them.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I've come to think that Biz was dropped to give Ferguson a last chance, Carroll was dropped to give Holland a last chance and PJ was dropped to give Jamar a last chance.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Maybe the club is under Salary cap pressure also. The club wouldn't of budgeted on so many players being used, you might find guys like Bizz, PJ, CJ maybe on low base but high per game rate. Could be clutching at straws but it may be a reason.

No the Club is not under Cap pressure.

Bizz, PJ and CJ are on flat term contracts (A set amount per annum). Contracts designed for low base with incentives will bring you unstuck with the Cap if everyone performs. Players will always seek surety of flat term contracts.

The club is also trying to find a fringe player that other clubs may want. Key defender Ferguson, Ruck Jamar, give them some game time hopefully they show something and we can get a third round pick for them.

That is not correct.

Trading is grossly overrated as a process on this site.

Very few players are actually traded out of those actually shopped around. Each year very few deals are done. Most deals are for players with ability but questionable attitudes who could possibly add something to a side immediately. Clubs would be backfilling their lists getting underperforming players from a bottom club.

Why would any Club give up even a third round pick for flawed players in their mid 20s that cannot sustain a regular game in an underperforming side? You can pick up better for free in the PSD for no cost.

We tried to hock Ferg for the past 2 yearscould not get a serious bite for him. Whats changed? If someone offered even a 4th round it would be a steal

In the next two years MFC has to offload about 12 players (deadwood) off their list even allowing for Neitz and Yze to retire in 2008.

Playing Ferg and co. allows the footy department to make a clear and informed view on just who gets cut now and those possibly in 2008.

[Rogue 585]

If I was Carroll, I'd be desperate for Riley not to get the gig for next year.

it's a bit hard to delist blokes when they've spent the whole season in the VFL putting in good peformances

No, it isn't.

If they've been in the VFL all season it indicates that they couldn't get a gig in Melbourne, a team struggling at the bottom of the ladder and with substantial injuries...

Fine lets drop Brown but I am not sure who your smaller forward is.

I'd rather see CJ play forward than Brown.

[Jarka 767]

Trading is grossly overrated as a process on this site.

I'd imagine that Hawthorn fans would disagree with you.

[Scoop Junior 3,021]

I disagree with many here.

I don't think it's tanking. I also don't think it's a try-and-see scenario.

Let's be realistic. We know what Benny Holland gives us. He'll be honest and competitive. He may do a good job on Brogan/Lade forward. But will this mean suddenly he will earn his spot on the list for 2008? We know he can stop Rocca and we know he can do a good job. But we also know the limitations and we want someone better. So I think the try-and-see scenario is not right.

It's definitely not tanking. If you are tanking, you'd play all your youngsters. Dropping CJ for Bell/Bruce adds strength, it doesn't equate to tanking.

The way I see it is that Riley believes Holland and Ferg are the right match-ups for Port's forward structure. Westhoff is tall and thin - sounds like a Ferg match-up there. Brogan/Lade often rest forward - perfect for Holland and Miller will probably get first crack at Tredrea. Carroll/Bizzell do not have the height for Westhoff/Brogan/Lade. It's pretty simple really.

But at the same time I'm a bit confused. Frawley got towelled up last week yet gets another game. That smells like development. But then playing blokes like Ferg and Holland who may not be there next year smells of a desire to win. It appears as though there an eye on wanting to win and be competitive and the other eye on development at the same time.

But I think the tanking and try-and-see arguments aren't really consistent with the changes.

[sylvinator 96]

I disagree with many here.

I don't think it's tanking. I also don't think it's a try-and-see scenario.

Let's be realistic. We know what Benny Holland gives us. He'll be honest and competitive. He may do a good job on Brogan/Lade forward. But will this mean suddenly he will earn his spot on the list for 2008? We know he can stop Rocca and we know he can do a good job. But we also know the limitations and we want someone better. So I think the try-and-see scenario is not right.

It's definitely not tanking. If you are tanking, you'd play all your youngsters. Dropping CJ for Bell/Bruce adds strength, it doesn't equate to tanking.

The way I see it is that Riley believes Holland and Ferg are the right match-ups for Port's forward structure. Westhoff is tall and thin - sounds like a Ferg match-up there. Brogan/Lade often rest forward - perfect for Holland and Miller will probably get first crack at Tredrea. Carroll/Bizzell do not have the height for Westhoff/Brogan/Lade. It's pretty simple really.

But at the same time I'm a bit confused. Frawley got towelled up last week yet gets another game. That smells like development. But then playing blokes like Ferg and Holland who may not be there next year smells of a desire to win. It appears as though there an eye on wanting to win and be competitive and the other eye on development at the same time.

But I think the tanking and try-and-see arguments aren't really consistent with the changes.

i hate to break it to you buddy, but playing ferguson and holland does not smell like the desire to win. These two players are so average it's actually redilcous. they really shouldnt be on an afl list next season. carrol is far better than both.

playing ferguson is simply giving him a last opportunity to prove to a next coach whether he should be on MFC's list next year.

[Jaded No More 58,751]

But I think the tanking and try-and-see arguments aren't really consistent with the changes.

Ferguson and Holland are not a winning combination, and they never have been.

The argument to play them, is to either bump up their trade value (in the case of Ferguson), or give them a few fairwell matches.

As you said, we know what they bring, and it's not much. The decision on their future was clear a long time ago, and there is little they can do to change their fate at the MFC.

Now looking at Adelaide's forward line, here are what I think could be the match-ups:

HF: Danyle Pearce, Warren Tredrea, David Rodan

F: Daniel Motlop, Justin Westhoff, Brett Ebert

Assuming Miller takes Tredrea, and Ferguson plays on Westhoff, that means that Holland will spend time on the bench while Lade/Brogan are not playing up forward.

Ward has to play and will probably play on Pearce (oh the joy), leaving Belly on either Ebert or Rodan.

That means Frawley takes Motlop (?) who I fear has too much pace for him, and Wheatley plays on Rodan/Ebert.

We would have been better off forgeting Ferguson, playing Miller on Westhoff (gives away a bit of height, but definitely beats him for strength), Carroll on Tredrea, and PJ on the resting ruckman (he's played a couple of games down back and wasn't horrible, and this is all about development).

If we were really trying to win, there is not a chance in hell that Carroll would have been dropped. He is easily in our best 22, and we can always find a match-up for him. Same goes for PJ (I'm in favour of giving Jamar another go, but not at the expense of another developing ruck).

If we were interested in looking at the list, we'd play Warnock instead of Ferguson/Holland, which again, are not at all unfamiliar.

There is nothing competitive about our team at the moment. Bell and Bruce's inclusion are a no-brainer and make us both competitive while keeping an eye on the future (both will play next year and beyond).

However, 8 of the players named in the squad are not in our best 22, while up to 6 of those are unlikely to be on our list next year. Sure, injuries are mostly to blame, but a team who isn't tanking wouldn't drop their FB. Furthermore, a team trying to develop a list for the future, wouldn't play so many players who are unlikely to feature in their side going forward.

I don't know what Riley or the MFC is trying to achieve here, but one thing is certain, we're not trying to win.

Sunday afternoon will simply be a percentage booster for Port.

[BrownlowBruce 1]

You are right. We should be playing Carroll and PJ in the midfield and on the ball all day.

This is all about looking at the list for 2008

IMO the Club will axe two of Ferg, Jamar or Holland at year end. Which two? Performances in the coming weeks will have a say in that.

Fine lets drop Brown but I am not sure who your smaller forward is.

Ward will definitely be around in 2008.

I cant understand the overblown hissyfits about selection from here to year end. This is all about seeing who stays and who goes for 2008.

not often i agree with rhino but he is spot on.... this may even be sone players fairwell game

Ferguson and Holland are not a winning combination, and they never have been.

The argument to play them, is to either bump up their trade value (in the case of Ferguson), or give them a few fairwell matches.

As you said, we know what they bring, and it's not much. The decision on their future was clear a long time ago, and there is little they can do to change their fate at the MFC.

Now looking at Adelaide's forward line, here are what I think could be the match-ups:

HF: Danyle Pearce, Warren Tredrea, David Rodan

F: Daniel Motlop, Justin Westhoff, Brett Ebert

Assuming Miller takes Tredrea, and Ferguson plays on Westhoff, that means that Holland will spend time on the bench while Lade/Brogan are not playing up forward.

Ward has to play and will probably play on Pearce (oh the joy), leaving Belly on either Ebert or Rodan.

That means Frawley takes Motlop (?) who I fear has too much pace for him, and Wheatley plays on Rodan/Ebert.

We would have been better off forgeting Ferguson, playing Miller on Westhoff (gives away a bit of height, but definitely beats him for strength), Carroll on Tredrea, and PJ on the resting ruckman (he's played a couple of games down back and wasn't horrible, and this is all about development).

If we were really trying to win, there is not a chance in hell that Carroll would have been dropped. He is easily in our best 22, and we can always find a match-up for him. Same goes for PJ (I'm in favour of giving Jamar another go, but not at the expense of another developing ruck).

If we were interested in looking at the list, we'd play Warnock instead of Ferguson/Holland, which again, are not at all unfamiliar.

There is nothing competitive about our team at the moment. Bell and Bruce's inclusion are a no-brainer and make us both competitive while keeping an eye on the future (both will play next year and beyond).

However, 8 of the players named in the squad are not in our best 22, while up to 6 of those are unlikely to be on our list next year. Sure, injuries are mostly to blame, but a team who isn't tanking wouldn't drop their FB. Furthermore, a team trying to develop a list for the future, wouldn't play so many players who are unlikely to feature in their side going forward.

I don't know what Riley or the MFC is trying to achieve here, but one thing is certain, we're not trying to win.

Sunday afternoon will simply be a percentage booster for Port.

who said holland wont play up forward?

all of u stop carrying on like a lil school girls and look at the bigger picture.... this isnt about the younger players its about sorting the MFC 2007 side from the 2008 side.

[Rogue 585]

bell and bruce no brainers?

last week u were crying for bell to be included. now uve changed ur mind. daniel bell needs all the game time he can get.... if he can keep improving like he has.

Jaded means that the decision to select them needed no brain - it's automatic, a decision requiring zero mental capacity.

[BrownlowBruce 1]

Jaded means that the decision to select them needed no brain - it's automatic, a decision requiring zero mental capacity.

understand... now...

i thought it was a contrast between the players included in the side compared to bruce and bell.

[Jaded No More 58,751]

not often i agree with rhino but he is spot on.... this may even be sone players fairwell game

who said holland wont play up forward?

all of u stop carrying on like a lil school girls and look at the bigger picture.... this isnt about the younger players its about sorting the MFC 2007 side from the 2008 side.

A forward line consisting of Holland, Neita and Robbo? Accountability on the rebound would be at an all-time low

Also, where does that leave Newton?

Holland was clearly selected to do a job, which is fine. That is the only reason he's on our list.

I don't actually care who comes into the side, as we should certainly look at everyone (even if for the last time) over the next few weeks. It's who they drop that annoys me. Memembers of our best 22 (who are fit) in favour of extremely ordinary players, or developing kids (i.e.- Dunn last week, PJ and CJ this week). Meanwhile the same players get a game every week, when clearly their careers should be over.

[DemonTux 95]

looks like we are going to have a fair clean out at the end of the year

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,299]

I disagree with many here.

I don't think it's tanking. I also don't think it's a try-and-see scenario.

Let's be realistic. We know what Benny Holland gives us. He'll be honest and competitive. He may do a good job on Brogan/Lade forward. But will this mean suddenly he will earn his spot on the list for 2008? We know he can stop Rocca and we know he can do a good job. But we also know the limitations and we want someone better. So I think the try-and-see scenario is not right.

It's definitely not tanking. If you are tanking, you'd play all your youngsters. Dropping CJ for Bell/Bruce adds strength, it doesn't equate to tanking.

The way I see it is that Riley believes Holland and Ferg are the right match-ups for Port's forward structure. Westhoff is tall and thin - sounds like a Ferg match-up there. Brogan/Lade often rest forward - perfect for Holland and Miller will probably get first crack at Tredrea. Carroll/Bizzell do not have the height for Westhoff/Brogan/Lade. It's pretty simple really.

But at the same time I'm a bit confused. Frawley got towelled up last week yet gets another game. That smells like development. But then playing blokes like Ferg and Holland who may not be there next year smells of a desire to win. It appears as though there an eye on wanting to win and be competitive and the other eye on development at the same time.

But I think the tanking and try-and-see arguments aren't really consistent with the changes.

BIG RED SIGNING IN:

Good points Scoop. I was initially suprised that Carroll was dropped but there is no match up. Did anyone not notice the height we gave away in our backline last week? Petrie and Hale towered over who ever they played on. I would state that Lade and Westhoff give just the same height issue and combined have shown better form/quality. Riley has tried to get the right match ups. In saying this though I would have played carroll in front of Miller (but we know they want to have a good look at him back) or Frawley (we know they want to fast track him).

We are still playing youth in Buckley, Newton and Frawley. I think they may have seen enough of Cj and realised he is not up to it.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,370]

Surprised they didn't recall Shannon Motlop for this one

[Axis of Bob 10,311]

Frawley's matchup in that scenario is Ebert. Bell on Motlop.

Also, I think you'll find that Doggy Brown will be on the list next year. I know he's unfashionable, but he does a lot of things that most people on here don't notice. Like run hard defensively, which is something that we don't get a lot of in our side. I have been a critic of him in the past, but he plays a very important role that nobody really notices because they only look at players when they have the ball.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,370]

Also, I think you'll find that Doggy Brown will be on the list next year. I know he's unfashionable, but he does a lot of things that most people on here don't notice.

I too have given him credit throughout the year, but his fate was sealed last week. Too slow and his skills are found wanting at times.

His major strength is he knows how to get the ball, and is usually in the top 5 in this department each week.

Would be staggered if he survives the September/October 2007 purge, but wouldn't be upset either, as he bleeds for the club.

[Maverick 0]

I think they may have seen enough of Cj and realised he is not up to it.

Really wish they would atleast persist till the end of the season with CJ in the seniors instead of giving him a small run of games and then dropping him...granted he hasn't set the world on fire, but wouldn't mind seeing him get a run on the HFF instead of Brown just for something different.

[TonyMelb 7]

Look, you either pick the best available team each week, or you treat the rest of the year like a pre-season and assess the players by giving them all a go ... in some cases a last chance to prove any value they have at all.

I favour the latter. This is not the time for the usual whingeing about who is selected and who isn't ... it's a time to prepare for next year.

Totally agree! with only 6 games left the Selection Committee needs to play each all the MFC players at least once so they and the incoming coaching panel has some basis for deciding changes at year end. Have to give Ferguson etc a go, Looks like Holland has been put in for back up (not possible there is a plan b???) or to stand Tredrea first up.) I would expect several more changes over next few weeks. The Pt Adelaide game is alogical one to use as MFC has lost last 9 at AAMI against Power. The games need to pick best side for are r 20 against pies at G and ironically R22 which is only home game at g in 2nd half of the season. MFC needs to put on a reasonable show in last round ( which may be a dilema if Blues dont win in meantime!) as many MFC supporters will be looking for something positive for 2008 before deciding to renew memberships etc. That together with choice of new coach - vital! Dont think 150th year will sway many!

My other selections for rest of the year would be on assistant coaches - OUT after this week - Curran, Williams ( cant see them having any role in 2008) IN -for experience Yze (fwds) Rivers (Defence) M. Whelan (midfield). These guys getting paid and need something to do!

[CHAMP 347]

The way I see it is that Riley believes Holland and Ferg are the right match-ups for Port's forward structure. Westhoff is tall and thin - sounds like a Ferg match-up there. Brogan/Lade often rest forward - perfect for Holland and Miller will probably get first crack at Tredrea. Carroll/Bizzell do not have the height for Westhoff/Brogan/Lade. It's pretty simple really.

That covers the big guys but I'm still a bit worried about Pearce, Ebert, Motlop, K.Cornes, Rodan and to a lesser extent, Lonie, Cassisi and S.Burgoyne.

[Real Demon 232]

Look, you either pick the best available team each week, or you treat the rest of the year like a pre-season and assess the players by giving them all a go ... in some cases a last chance to prove any value they have at all.

I favour the latter. This is not the time for the usual whingeing about who is selected and who isn't ... it's a time to prepare for next year.

Absolutely spot on!!!!!

What else do we expect at this time of the year anyway......the season was shot to pieces weeks ago......try something different, and test different players!

There is only 22 spots available each week........some players have to make way!

There is no point going in with 3 ruckmen to test Jamar.......and keeping Bizzell, Carroll, Ferguson, and Holland all in the same team is crazy as well.

Let's not get too hysterical about the changes.

And can people stop suggesting that players get games to improve their trade value.........that is the biggest crock I have ever heard!

By that rationale, you would stop playing good players you wanted to keep for the following season to stop their value going up! Please be serious!

[Axis of Bob 10,311]

Doggy's strength isn't his ball winning but it's his hard running which, in turn, gets him a lot of the ball.

He's just an exceptionally hard worker and he'll stay on the list because of it. We need more of it.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,370]

Fairly sure Brown is getting a game this week as a farewell AAMI Stadium game for him. He is from SA.