2 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

I really don't understand why fans thinks that a new coach = more success. History will show you that in many cases, new coach does not in fact equal instant or faster success.

There are any number of studies out there that show that for teams performing poorly, changing a coach brings no long term benefit.

People should look up regression to the mean - especially when the AFL has its finger on the scale in terms of access to high-end talent.

Further skewed by Academy players (Sydney especially, but also the Dogs with JUH), and father-sons (looking at you Collingwood).

But take all that out and teams will rise and fall. Always.

Edited August 5, 2024Aug 5 by bing181

2 hours ago, John Demonic said:

Roost meant Justin Leppitsch. And I concur. Great tactical mind on SEN a few years ago, down to earth and approachable, but still looks like he doesn't take [censored]. Head coaching experience which he would have learnt a hell of a lot from like Voss. Went over and was instrumental in the Pies premiership alongside McCrae.

Although how could we pry him away from the Pies? It would have to be a big contract offer with the mind that his tactical approach is going to be a key reason for us contending next year ie a senior assistant who's either going to be successful at it, or take over as head coach if the club isn't next year. Oh and he should also take a key role in selecting/bringing over some line coaches. That might be the way we can get him over.

I’ve heard (from people that know) that Leppitsch is a real hot head, would be a pretty big cultural shift from the mentality of the current coaches.

Edited August 5, 2024Aug 5 by BW511

5 hours ago, Norm Smith's Curse said:

Surely this is trolling

For the 3rd time I meant Justin Leppitsch 

2 hours ago, BW511 said:

I’ve heard (from people that know) that Leppitsch is a real hot head, would be a pretty big cultural shift from the mentality of the current coaches.

Leppitsch should be targeted as an assistant as Goodwin needs fresh ideas need to move on some of the longer term assistants … 

On 05/08/2024 at 03:26, bing181 said:

There are any number of studies out there that show that for teams performing poorly, changing a coach brings no long term benefit.

The [censored] lol 😂 

Yeah sam Mitchell looking [censored] as at hawthorn, mcrae did nothing for the pies. Kingsley at GWS. Scott won a flag after taking over from Thompson, Longmire at Sydney. There's literally evidence everywhere 😂 

On 05/08/2024 at 02:06, BW511 said:

I’ve heard (from people that know) that Leppitsch is a real hot head, would be a pretty big cultural shift from the mentality of the current coaches.

That's the benefit of a CHANGE St…d.

Really Thsts what’s required whether it’s Goody infuced( which Ivfear won’t happen) or selected assistants that power the arguments for necessary and positive moves in game plans, recruiting certain types for a new game plan and making the Club look invigorated. And futuristic to today’s football. We are in a rut.  Mini can’t change anything majorly if Stafford ( how can he survive again please  no move him on). 

At this stage WCW is rolling  her eyes and saying how disloyal.!

BUT footy clubs have to evolve and new personnel are essential. Our game plan is still defence and contest but offence and challenge need to be added. If the forces that set the FD and Coach don’t realise this ( with JT and TL) recruiting along skill and running  advantages we will not make pace and simply drop each year yo the bottom again

Snd heaven help us if thst happens. Look at the topic on where were you and see the sample of priorities of at least 10,000 fans from 6 weeks ago when we had 32,000 vs the Coasters, . 

Down to 16/17,000 in a month. If that’s sticking as a fan through thick and thin then please don’t sign up and desert the Club  because of a 92 pt thrashing after 7 years from 2017 where increases and due to our 2021 flag many new members.

Can I  suggest that parents generally don’t abandon their child’s sport each week unless it’s a real drama to continue. No it’s not all parents etc but some other fans as well  who have obviously cruised with the good times and success we only dreamed of and after a couple of shockers ( don’t worry about 3 games decided by less than a goal to the 2nd, Fourth and Fifth teams that we were brave and just don’t take our  chances.

Why because we are not trained to take chances in our game plans. We are engrained in saving goals snd not kicking them. Our forwards don’t know how to win close games as the brain is not non change from defence to attack. 

It has not helped that Trac Clarry and Gawny have not been available or this season not fit enough to have a major influence on the play.

Goody again could use Clarry more up forward cut out the gut running with very limited bursts on the ball. Give Laurie and Kynan an opportunity. McVee also. 

Will Spsrrow be any better for at last being dropped? Let’s see.

i did about 2 mths ago that Goody needed to be creative but look at his abysmal Sub selections and minimal usage. Really Disco a sub? Yes if he gets a half up forward or down back but not a 10 minute lick  of the ice cream when it’s far too late!! 

So the Club have got to move heaven and earth to move on from 2021 no matter how we feel. Thats why in 2/3 short  years the Tigers have degenerated so quickly. Felt that 2017 was going to kick in again in 2021/2 and3.

CHANGE that word and Goody will need to if not in 12 mths we will not have breathed a new style or  outlook so necessary to 2024/5 success . 

the longer its delayed the harder for the Club in the long run and our last decade of progress will be under serious threat at this time. 

Sorry to be so Goody oriented but it is the major issue in change and the Board are unlike y to make a major move in view of his success. 
Chris Scott finally worked out about change and hit a flag. 
Cats fans should be grateful that after 7/8 years he did.

We need much more immediate impact now either in house or starting from the fence to the backyard. 

It’s not saying failure but just evolving in time that change is necessary.

Accepting it is hard but totally necessary to have the effect on our next 4/5 years if we are to utilise all our long term stars extensions. 
 

 

 

Goodwin won't change, he does the same thing week after week even when it fails.

On 05/08/2024 at 11:35, Wells 11 said:

Agreed. 

Me too

2 hours ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Goodwin won't change, he does the same thing week after week even when it fails.

Another reason to let him go!

5 hours ago, 58er said:

That's the benefit of a CHANGE St…d.

Really Thsts what’s required whether it’s Goody infuced( which Ivfear won’t happen) or selected assistants that power the arguments for necessary and positive moves in game plans, recruiting certain types for a new game plan and making the Club look invigorated. And futuristic to today’s football. We are in a rut.  Mini can’t change anything majorly if Stafford ( how can he survive again please  no move him on). 

At this stage WCW is rolling  her eyes and saying how disloyal.!

BUT footy clubs have to evolve and new personnel are essential. Our game plan is still defence and contest but offence and challenge need to be added. If the forces that set the FD and Coach don’t realise this ( with JT and TL) recruiting along skill and running  advantages we will not make pace and simply drop each year yo the bottom again

Snd heaven help us if thst happens. Look at the topic on where were you and see the sample of priorities of at least 10,000 fans from 6 weeks ago when we had 32,000 vs the Coasters, . 

Down to 16/17,000 in a month. If that’s sticking as a fan through thick and thin then please don’t sign up and desert the Club  because of a 92 pt thrashing after 7 years from 2017 where increases and due to our 2021 flag many new members.

Can I  suggest that parents generally don’t abandon their child’s sport each week unless it’s a real drama to continue. No it’s not all parents etc but some other fans as well  who have obviously cruised with the good times and success we only dreamed of and after a couple of shockers ( don’t worry about 3 games decided by less than a goal to the 2nd, Fourth and Fifth teams that we were brave and just don’t take our  chances.

Why because we are not trained to take chances in our game plans. We are engrained in saving goals snd not kicking them. Our forwards don’t know how to win close games as the brain is not non change from defence to attack. 

It has not helped that Trac Clarry and Gawny have not been available or this season not fit enough to have a major influence on the play.

Goody again could use Clarry more up forward cut out the gut running with very limited bursts on the ball. Give Laurie and Kynan an opportunity. McVee also. 

Will Spsrrow be any better for at last being dropped? Let’s see.

i did about 2 mths ago that Goody needed to be creative but look at his abysmal Sub selections and minimal usage. Really Disco a sub? Yes if he gets a half up forward or down back but not a 10 minute lick  of the ice cream when it’s far too late!! 

So the Club have got to move heaven and earth to move on from 2021 no matter how we feel. Thats why in 2/3 short  years the Tigers have degenerated so quickly. Felt that 2017 was going to kick in again in 2021/2 and3.

CHANGE that word and Goody will need to if not in 12 mths we will not have breathed a new style or  outlook so necessary to 2024/5 success . 

the longer its delayed the harder for the Club in the long run and our last decade of progress will be under serious threat at this time. 

Sorry to be so Goody oriented but it is the major issue in change and the Board are unlike y to make a major move in view of his success. 
Chris Scott finally worked out about change and hit a flag. 
Cats fans should be grateful that after 7/8 years he did.

We need much more immediate impact now either in house or starting from the fence to the backyard. 

It’s not saying failure but just evolving in time that change is necessary.

Accepting it is hard but totally necessary to have the effect on our next 4/5 years if we are to utilise all our long term stars extensions. 
 

 

 

So much to unpack there and not saying it’s all wrong but the idea of Oliver as a forward just doesn’t compute - he is or was a great extractor with brilliant handball ability but he has also always been very ordinary by foot - if he was a half decent kick he’d probably have a Brownlow around his neck 

On 04/08/2024 at 21:40, middleagedemon said:

It's the classic goal-post shifting that is the more hilarious thing from Binman and the like.

It's now fatigue apparently!!! Fatigue! 

I mean, give us a break! 

How did fatigue go for us when we managed to peg GWS back in that last quarter? Was it fatigue in the first quarter alone against the Bulldogs? How are we measuring this exactly? 

You can't take that bunch seriously because there'll be an excuse that becomes 'The Reason' for our failings for that given season. Which is utterly ridiculous given these are commonalities ALL teams go through and just covers over underlying issues that have existed for too long. 

Injury and fatigue hey. Wow. 

How you measure these as a supporter depends entirely on what level of bias one holds for their team. For Binman and co, the dees  always seem to be victim of such cruelties, more so than any other side in the AFL! That's because this particular group of dlanders have held the long-standing and unequivocal belief that we are the best team in it, we have undoubtedly the best game-plan and the most talented list. 

If you vehemently believe the above to be true, you're no doubt going to throw up one or two excuses as 'The Reason' for a failed season. Which is exactly what this crew have done since the 2022 finals campaign, all the while completely ignoring a set of underlying issues that have plagued us even throughout our 2021 home and away year. 

Along with the obvious disadvantages that all teams face every year, why don't we look at some of the contributing factors that have remained with us as a side for far too long now. And are the reason that all supporters get so frustrated with Goodwin. 

1: Jackson replacement/genuine Gawn support. Why is it that Goodwin defenders cannot seem to handle criticism of the failings in this area? It's been a significant fail given the way we have relied on him and provided next to no support. If dlanders are happy to throw up the injury excuse when he's out or when 'carrying' injury, how do you not point the finger at Goodwin and co for providing no support in a game where injury is bound to happen to anyone at any time? Especially so when part of your game-plan has been built around Max Gawn. 

2: Midfield balance/attribute diversity I've banged on about this for I don't know how many years and it has plagued us in just about every game in which a team brings heat to our midfield. How much longer will it continue? Look no further than the first possession that we had on Friday night against the Dogs. Viney racing for a ball in dispute, gets to it and has two free Melbourne players if he manages to hook a dominant hand handball over his right shoulder. But no, he sees red, handballs blindly forward straight to a doggies player who takes possession. That kind of play is emblematic of our entire midfield unit when any serious heat is applied. And it happened all night. We have a contested heavy, ball winning heavy midfield unit who all lack in the same area when under pressure. Composure and disposal. 

It is that simple. We win the ball in tight and give it up almost immediately when the heat is applied. And every single side that have a half decent midfield know this when they play us. As the game goes on, the more desperate our mids become to win a clearance/contest and the more we swarm to the same ball and man with ball, in part because these mids have been 'ball winning' players since they were kids and desperation kicks in. The commentary around our lack of pace/run and the 'fatigue' comments are actually by-products of what is happening in close. We give the ball up that easily when heat is applied, it makes the opposition look quicker, fitter and like they have more players on the ground. When opposition half-backs could see the standard set by their mids on fri night, they knew they could have a field day by rolling the dice and streaming off their men, getting that call right the majority of the night due to how easily we were giving the ball up in close if we were getting our hands on it. (Which for much of the night we weren't even doing). So then it's two fold. You've got oppo half-backs playing their own game of footy as their mids are just consistently either winning first possession themselves and handballing out of congestion and then to running half backs, or they knew if we were to get first possession, we'd likely cough it up thanks to the the heat their team mates were applying in close and our lack of composure and disposal came to the fore. 

When the dogs bring heat like that, they look a million bucks because they are one of a few clubs who have mids who excel at feeding a ball out of a contest with a quick, smart handball under pressure. Libba and Bont specifically are specialists at this. Even Treloar has better hands in close than most if not all our mids. 

Now, clearance altogether has two parts to it. The one I listed above and the second being our actual setup at both centre bounce and stoppage. Both our positioning and lack of connectedness with Gawn has been wildly inconsistent for too long. Another issue that Binman and his brigade seem to ignore when they say things like, 'oh well, we don't place a premium on clearances anyway'. 

How about nah. Clearance gives you complete ascendency if you get it right. End of the third Q grand final? 

3: Forward setup/personnel. 

Again. How long? Let's go back to last year's finals and those who basically said inaccuracy cost us the flag. That might be so, but that has been in part down to game-plan and personnel. And inaccuracy has cost us in plenty of other games over the last few years. I'm not sure what Goodwin expects when he plays two key defenders as key forwards and one young kid who is still learning how to be a forward at AFL level. (JVR played a lot of defence as an under-aged kid and I don't classify him as a classical key forward).

Our inability to land one has been telling. We have a make-shift forward line that consistently looks like a dogs breakfast with little to no predictability in the way it moves. At the very least, Ben Brown was a straight line ball leader, which created vacuums of space for specialist forwards like Fritsch or Kosi to creep into. Goodwin has seemed happy to continue to play 'competitors' which means our kids are again happy to bomb away into the forward 50 with little to no intentionality. 

This problem also goes hand-in-hand with our midfield issue which I highlighted above. We have average ball user through our midfield when under no pressure and they're poor when under pressure. 

So, what will it take for us to land a specialist forwards assistant coach and perhaps a complete re-think of the type of players we want to have inside 50? Are we prepared to continue to play Fritsch when the ball isn't perfect for him given his complete disinterest in competing defensively? Another factor in why opposition teams waltz the ball out of our defence. Opposition defenders completely exploit that part of Fritsch's game. Do people notice this? When will Goody hold him to account? I won't hold my breath given the myriad of issues we have in our forwardline anyway. 

Ben Brown at full fitness is what this team misses more than supporters give credit for and we need to bring in another player of that type pronto. 

So, whilst I'm not in the 'sack Goody' camp. I certainly think that he's done this team no favours in the last few years and if he is not to blame, who we blaming? The umpires? Injury? Fitness? 

How about no. Those things will be there every year, period. Sure Petracca has been a missive loss. But that's even more telling! If a team is that reliant on one player, there are some serious underlying issues. 

And just so it's clear, I'm no doomsdayer. I believe we can rectify, recalibrate and go again whilst we still have some key pillars. But we need to absolutely nail this off-season and nail the pre-season and actually fix some of these underlying issues that have existed for far too long. 

If not, it will indeed be a wasted era. 

I've been lurking on Demon forums and social media communities for 20-odd years and this is close to the best post I've read. 

The diagnosis of the midfield problem is so well expressed and incisive. 

53 minutes ago, Sydee said:

So much to unpack there and not saying it’s all wrong but the idea of Oliver as a forward just doesn’t compute - he is or was a great extractor with brilliant handball ability but he has also always been very ordinary by foot - if he was a half decent kick he’d probably have a Brownlow around his neck 

I am only suggesting now that he is totally exhausted and tired Goody  should be looking to get more out of him rather than play him as much on the ball. Post him at half forward or pocket and run him on brief cameos on the ball to get a full game out of him. Next year should after a full pre season should be different hopefully for Clarry. 

On 03/08/2024 at 01:48, Fork 'em said:

I'd honestly hate to play for Goodwin.
These kids that make it to the bigtime do it because they played with some flair.
Then they get here and it's coached out've them.

Our KPI is to keep the opposition under 60pts and somehow hope we manage to rugby scrum 61pts.
Inspiring stuff .... Not.

Amazing that, apart from Jackson and Bedford, every single one that we've wanted to re-sign has done so. How do you reconcile that?

Edited August 12, 2024Aug 12 by old55

50 minutes ago, old55 said:

Amazing that, apart from Jackson and Bedford, every single one that we've wanted to re-sign has done so. How do you reconcile that?

Please take your facts and leave

My my, Demonland and especially a cadre of so called supporters, always the same after a loss, if you are not happy with the coach, the players, the coaching staff, the board, the recruiting staff etc. etc., go and do something else with your life, does it make you feel better to be so consistently negative.

If the Board and the CEO think that Goody is not up to the task, they will sack him, no amount of pontificating on here will affect that decision, even though some would like to think it will.

Melbourne have by the standards of the last five years, had a poor season, I have been disappointed with some of the performances, but pleased with the improvement in some of the younger players,  but we get another crack next season.

Nobody has died because of the poor season.

On 05/08/2024 at 21:14, Demonsone said:

Leppitsch should be targeted as an assistant as Goodwin needs fresh ideas need to move on some of the longer term assistants … 

By the metrics on this thread he must be a failure...his team currently in 11th.

Not likely to make the 8 after a premiership year.

What's wrong with McRae and his FD?

The Goodwin detractors operate on several assumptions which I believe to be wrong.

 

The first is that seasons 2022 and 2023  were a complete fail. Sure, I was not happy that we went out in straight sets in both of them, but to be top four in each was a real achievement - compare Richmond in 2021, Geelong in 2023, and now Collingwood. And particularly in 2023, there were good reasons - the injuries to 2/3 or more of our forward line made it almost impossible to succeed, and all credit to everyone involved for how close we came.

 

The second assumption is that because we have eg the best ruckman in the comp, we should win every hitout; because we have a great midfield we should win every clearance, etc.. It only has to be said for the fallacy to be obvious.

 

Then there is the assumption that there are, eg, good ruckmen around who would be prepared to come to the club and spend the vast bulk of the year at Casey in order to replace Max if he goes down for a short or a long period. Such palyers are in very short supply. And we don't have 'lifestyle" to offer a la Geelong, and the come-home factor for Victorians is shared with many other clubs.

 

Finally, there is a lot of criticism of Goody for not changing to a game plan of speed and skill. In short, our list was built for defence and contest. In 2011-2012, Neeld was given a list built for pace and skill and tried to turn it into a hard defensive team - with predictably disastrous results. To do this in reverse would be equally disastrous. Goody has tried to change the game plan up a bit this year, with mixed results, but why should we? Our game is contest and defence and it is still effective despite the injuries that we now have- getting so close to Brisbane, GWS and Port Adelaide, all genuine contenders, shows that. Some people say it is dull and boring. That is a matter of taste - personally, I love a hard, defensive game and absolutely hate a boring goalfest a la basketball. And what I absolutely love is to go along and see us being competitive, even when we are expected to lose by 10 goals as we were against Port. Yes, there have been a few very poor performances this year, but generally we have turned up to play and have shown some spirit. After decades of watching games with only the hope that I might see a glimmer for the future, this is now a real pleasure.

On 05/08/2024 at 14:41, Norm Smith's Curse said:

There is no value in sacking a coach right now but suddenly our list looks thin, unfit and bog ordinary. 

Perhaps little value now, but it would be pleasing to arrange at this very moment for a replacement coach to take over the reins immediately after this current season is completed for the Dees. Jordan Lewis and/or Akermanis would be useful in the role, for example, or even Big Max. There are many possibilities as far as coaching is involved, we just have to make the decision - there are many fans who are considering a top-down change for 2025. We need to be brave, I guess.

Goodwin

“ there’s learnings”

”we will pivot to find a solution “ 

“I will try to improve our connection “ 

rinse and repeat his verbal diarrhea 2022, 2023 and 2024 

“Regardless of where you sit in a season, regardless of who you're playing, you've got to play a certain way and be a certain team, and that's a part of building a culture that is high performing,"

High performing???  We had high performing.  Where did that go.
What are we admitting it’s all gone to shiff and we are rebuilding ?

I’m sick of this BS from Goodwin

6 hours ago, old55 said:

Amazing that, apart from Jackson and Bedford, every single one that we've wanted to re-sign has done so. How do you reconcile that?

Refer the Trac wants out thread.

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Goodwin

“ there’s learnings”

”we will pivot to find a solution “ 

“I will try to improve our connection “ 

rinse and repeat his verbal diarrhea 2022, 2023 and 2024 

“Regardless of where you sit in a season, regardless of who you're playing, you've got to play a certain way and be a certain team, and that's a part of building a culture that is high performing,"

High performing???  We had high performing.  Where did that go.
What are we admitting it’s all gone to shiff and we are rebuilding ?

I’m sick of this BS from Goodwin

No answers, no strategies, no hope. Agree fully with you, SONS! 

2 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Refer the Trac wants out thread.

Just like how Kozzy went to Port and Petty went to Adelaide eh?

14 hours ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Goodwin won't change, he does the same thing week after week even when it fails.

This is not really true though. Maybe in season it can be true for periods, although we've changed it up a number of times this year, for example.

But it's certainly untrue from year to year.

In 2017-2018, we played some of the most attacking football in the league. We scored 155 more points than minor premier Richmond in 2018 FFS! We scored comfortably 200 more points than the next closest that year.

Are people being deliberately disingenuous or have they just got dementia?

6 hours ago, Ollie fan said:

The Goodwin detractors operate on several assumptions which I believe to be wrong.

 

The first is that seasons 2022 and 2023  were a complete fail. Sure, I was not happy that we went out in straight sets in both of them, but to be top four in each was a real achievement - compare Richmond in 2021, Geelong in 2023, and now Collingwood. And particularly in 2023, there were good reasons - the injuries to 2/3 or more of our forward line made it almost impossible to succeed, and all credit to everyone involved for how close we came.

 

The second assumption is that because we have eg the best ruckman in the comp, we should win every hitout; because we have a great midfield we should win every clearance, etc.. It only has to be said for the fallacy to be obvious.

 

Then there is the assumption that there are, eg, good ruckmen around who would be prepared to come to the club and spend the vast bulk of the year at Casey in order to replace Max if he goes down for a short or a long period. Such palyers are in very short supply. And we don't have 'lifestyle" to offer a la Geelong, and the come-home factor for Victorians is shared with many other clubs.

 

Finally, there is a lot of criticism of Goody for not changing to a game plan of speed and skill. In short, our list was built for defence and contest. In 2011-2012, Neeld was given a list built for pace and skill and tried to turn it into a hard defensive team - with predictably disastrous results. To do this in reverse would be equally disastrous. Goody has tried to change the game plan up a bit this year, with mixed results, but why should we? Our game is contest and defence and it is still effective despite the injuries that we now have- getting so close to Brisbane, GWS and Port Adelaide, all genuine contenders, shows that. Some people say it is dull and boring. That is a matter of taste - personally, I love a hard, defensive game and absolutely hate a boring goalfest a la basketball. And what I absolutely love is to go along and see us being competitive, even when we are expected to lose by 10 goals as we were against Port. Yes, there have been a few very poor performances this year, but generally we have turned up to play and have shown some spirit. After decades of watching games with only the hope that I might see a glimmer for the future, this is now a real pleasure.

Great post.