PODCAST: Rd 05 vs Brisbane

[Demonland 73,163]

The Demonland Podcast will air LIVE on Monday, 15th April @ 8:30pm. Join George, Binman & I as we analyse the Demons loss at the MCG against the Lions in the Round 05.

You questions and comments are a huge part of our podcast so please post anything you want to ask or say below and we'll give you a shout out on the show.

If you would like to leave us a voicemail please call 03 9016 3666 and don't worry no body answers so you don't have to talk to a human.

Listen & Chat LIVE: https://demonland.com/podcast

Call: 03 9016 3666

Skype: Demonland31

[sam6172 141]

Disappointed but not surprised. Brisbane with plenty to play for and we just weren't quite at our best. 

More of a vent than a question. 5 day breaks. We have 2. I did a bit of research and there are 9 teams who have one 5 day break through their season. 5 teams have zero 5 day breaks and we are one of 4 unlucky ones with 2. 

Is there any rhyme or reason to how these are given out? They are a blight on the game and without going overboard, I feel like they are dangerous. These guys aren't playing lawn bowls, it's an extremely intense, rough and unforgiving sport and the AFL are playing with players wellbeing, not to mention the quality of the game, purely for tv viewers and Ad revenue. 

We weren't at our best tonight and I certainly don't believe that was purely fatigue. There are areas we need to work on but 3 games in 13 days is less than ideal scheduling to put it mildly. The boys had to be feeling the effects of that. 

I think this bye will be great for us. 

Edited April 11 by sam6172

[dee-tox 4,835]

Ummmmmm!

[layzie 34,014]

@dee-toxbeat me to it but I was gonna say I'm looking forward to the Umland podcast.

Um, is the excuse that oppo mids are sharking Max's taps overrated. How can anyone know his taps better than our mids? 

[Garbo 1,542]

I know this will be disputed but tonight’s loss I think can be blamed on 3 main factors

1. The selection of players who are not fit and able to play their roll, Oliver and BB, and some who are horribly out of form for one reason or another Billings, JVR, Petty. Some combination of these guys should not have been on the field tonight.

2. Goodwins refusal to adjust when things aren’t going our way, it seemed obvious to me due to the selection of several players who seem unable to play the zone defence tonight the Lions were able to repeatedly move the ball from defensive 50 to attacking 50 without us been able to get a hand on it putting our defence under enormous pressure. Why we didn’t switch to more man on man defence that would have shut this play down I have no idea. This was also evident the last 2 games but the wins papered over those cracks.

3. The inability to make Lachie Neale accountable, time after time he was extracting the ball and giving silver service to his team with seeming impunity, I watched on serval occasions where he was simply standing by him self at a stoppage. The fact our main man in this regard Oliver also seems unable to perform the same task for us is even more frustrating going back to my first point.

Does any of this make you question our credentials this year and Goodwins ability to take us to the promised land, for me I feel like I’m living in ground hog day for the 3rd year running and we will bomb out of finals once again.

[Travy14 1,951]

Hey guys.

Not all doom and gloom, i think we maybe drank our own bathwater after the SA trip.

I do have worries with Petty though, i understand he is a necessity forward atm but,  I have been saying for the past 2 years that his good performances as a fwd were either against average opponents or when he was swung forward in a game and it was a bit of a surprise factor.

He is a great mark and is actually usually a very good kick, but i think he is a very good defender and the perfect replacement for May when he retires.  He has to stay there now due to our tall forward stocks but is Petty as a long term forward sustainable?

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water over this game, was set up for Brissy to win.  But after the bye we better come out breathing a bit of fire!

[Nairobi_Demon 335]

Watched the game on replay this evening and I thought we looked slow and indecisive from the beginning. So much so that I started wondering whether we decided to take advantage of our 4-1 start and the upcoming bye to put some extra miles into the legs during the week. I went through the Sunday and Wednesday training threads but I couldn’t find any suggestion that they were heavy sessions with extra loads. Do the stats confirm our fitness was down and, if so, do you think it was because it was their third game in 13 days or is it possible they were also assigned extra running outside of the two main training sessions this week?

[OhMyDees 1,834]

Losing Salem so early in the game was a critical factor to our demise on Thursday in my opinion. 

To lose a key experienced distributor off half back and someone who could have taken midfield minutes to give our mids a chop out really hurt us.

I’d love the panel’s thoughts on the significance of losing Salem and how we can cover his absence moving forward.

[demoncat 1,514]

A disappointing loss but not an unforeseen one given it was our third game in two weeks and we were coming up against a Premiership contender desperate to make a statement 

My question for you all is how much of the loss can be attributed to being physically exhausted after our Adelaide road trip vs the systemic problems that were identified around us consistently losing inside 50s, contested possessions and time in fwd half in our last few games?

In other words, would simply having fresher legs allowed us to better employ the ‘Red and Blueprint’ binman has been discussing? Or were those statistical losses in our previous games a canary in the coal mine that pointed to larger issues and suggested we were playing in a way that wasn’t sustainable?

Look forward to the discussion and go Dees 🔴🔵

Edited April 12 by demoncat

[mpc 148]

I think for the first time in quite a few years we are seeing a lack of depth in our team.

Losing Salem so early in the game disrupted our team defense, which was left to Woewodin to fill alongside Howes and McVee. Previous years we would have had Brayshaw to fold back or super sub Smith and adjust things around them. 

In the midfield Oliver looked injured, and I wonder if we played him because we don't have ready made replacements like Jordan or Dunstan this year.  I also fear for Gawn as he is getting older and the seasons seem to be getting longer, we dont have a real backup (Roo is great, but still so young and is a forward, not a ruck, maybe Fullarton) - I miss Dogga.  

Up forward, Brown looks tired and my guess is the club would have planned a rest for him by now, but maybe we don't have anyone to replace him with (also maybe Fullarton?  Jefferson?).  For the smalls - Kolt debuted, and looked a bit out of his depth - in previous years I think he would not have got a run in his first year, and would have been developed at Casey.  We would have had the likes of Bedford ready to go, or Spargo if he wasn't injured.

After the bye it will be interesting to see what our team looks like without Salem, Bowey or Hore. Previous years we would have had Hibberd and Smith as an option or Brayshaw to move back. This year it seems a bit light on.  Hopefully Disco gets a good run at it.

And if a Oliver is still not quite right who do we replace him with? I like the idea of Kozzy, Rivers and Nibbler having stints in the midfield but they are different players to Oliver, and then that leaves gaps in other parts of the field.

Will be a good test of our depth over the next month or so. 

Interested to get your thoughts on this.

Thanks for the podcast, I enjoy it each week.

Edited April 12 by mpc

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

Brisbane have our measure and have proven the last 3 times we’ve played them that they can move the ball easily through our team defence. I’d like to know what the panel think of how we can combat this if we play them in the finals. I don't think it’s as simple as winning more clearance and taking territory. Their ability to transition deep out of our defence (especially via kick-ins) through to their forward half was ultra impressive and I don’t know if we have an answer to that.

[KLV 1,768]

Hey guys, thanks for the pod, listen every week, maybe not quite to the end every time 😉

just read that Brisbane had a specific plan to pierce through our defence, by forcing us to defend the short lead-ups, and therefore opening up their forward 50.

this sounds too simplistic to explain our woeful performance. What do you think, should we be worried?

[dino rover 714]

Interested in your take on our apparent lack of clearance “connection” from centre bounces.

In centre bounces the idea that we play an extra behind the play can’t apply and arguably centre bounce clearances provide great opportunities for forwards because there is less fwd congestion. 

max has a 29% hit outs to advantage stat considered “average” 

what is the stat for hit outs to advantage from centre bounces?

Is this an area for improvement?

 

 

 

[smurf 233]

1 hour ago, dino rover said:

Interested in your take on our apparent lack of clearance “connection” from centre bounces.

In centre bounces the idea that we play an extra behind the play can’t apply and arguably centre bounce clearances provide great opportunities for forwards because there is less fwd congestion. 

max has a 29% hit outs to advantage stat considered “average” 

what is the stat for hit outs to advantage from centre bounces?

Is this an area for improvement?

Further to this do you agree or disagree with Kingy that Hit out stats are overrated.

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Hey Gents.  Great work on these pods ty for all the effort and time put in.

No doubt you'll cover many aspects of the why re Thurs night's result.  Including losing Salo, Fatigue from the Adelaide travel wins, 3 matches in 13, Clarry's fingers etc.

Usually i'd try and answer this question myself but i don't have time this week to trawl through the replay having only seen half of what happened from behind the goals.

To see what i'm about to ask,  you probably need to sit up in the bleaches of the Ponsford alongside Bin or score some behind the goal footage from 7! 

So my question...

What impact, if any, do you guys feel our usual plus one behind the ball had in the result (assuming we went with that all night!???)  which would've left us one down at stoppage (or more) assuming Brissy brought up an extra (or maybe more at times!?).

We got smashed at around ground stoppages even with Max getting his fair share of hit outs to advantage.  And it started from the get go with Raynor running rampant.

At one stage we were 6 - 8 goals down.  Surely you don't maintain a plus one behind the ball in this situation?  Need to even things up at contest & start winning your fair share of first use & clearances and hopefuly hit the scoreboard more often and get back in the game.

Did this (potentially stubborn?) adherence to structure cost us in any way on the night?  Or did Goodwin recognise it at some point (maybe too late!??) and evened things up to try & cool Brissy's jets??

Edited April 13 by Demon Dynasty

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Scoring chains (scoring source) from Brissy came mostly off the wings (+14) and forward 50 (+8). 

Keeping in mind we lost by the total of these two scoring chain (scoring sources)  ... 22 points

Point being (per above)... did we fail to even up the numbers at stoppage or did so too late, giving Brissy a free hit most or all of the night?  Left too much to too few for too long?

Chain start region

Note: region is from the scoring team's perspective.

Category	Region	For		Against
		Match	Season	Match	Season *
Kick-in	D50	6	4.5	1	3.7
Centre Bounce	Centre	9	12.2	7	6.8
Stoppage (Other)	D50	0	1.2	0	0.0
Stoppage (Other)	Centre	1	0.3	6	2.0
Stoppage (Other)	Wing	12	15.8	24	11.2
Stoppage (Other)	F50	2	8.7	10	6.0
Turnover	D50	0	5.2	1	5.7
Turnover	Centre	2	6.0	1	4.0
Turnover	Wing	28	21.3	26	26.0
Turnover	F50	0	8.2	6	5.0

Region	For		Against
	Match	Season	Match	Season *
D50	6	10.8	2	9.3
Centre	12	18.5	14	12.8
Wing	40	37.2	50	37.2
F50	2	16.8	16	11.0

Stats courtesy of wheeloratings.com (see 'Stats File - 2024' thread)

Edited April 13 by Demon Dynasty

[MurDoc516 1,529]

Thoughts on the balance of the side against the lions?

To me it's very telling that Salem goes down and Woewodin is playing half back for the rest of the game. Felt like between Woewodin, Howes, McVee and eventually Oliver we couldn't get the matchups right down back. Then if you look in the forward half, JVR, Brown, Fritsch, Petty and Tholstrup provided little to no pressure on their opponents and were often getting bodied in marking contests. 

Obviously, injuries are a part of the reason for this issue but having no genuine second ruck to relieve Gawn is forcing us to play a very tall forward line that is nowhere near as mobile as even the Lions tall forwards. I would like to see one of Petty/Brown dropped out the side alongside Salem and Tholstrup and then bringing in Moniz-Wakefield (to play half back) and Pickett/Taj (in the forward line). Thoughts?

[DeelightfulPlay 2,561]

To chime in alongside the other comments / questions around depth...

With Gus retired, it was insightfully noted on the podcast earlier this season that we have a few players taking on aspects of Gus' versatile role in the midfield / back.  For example, Salem playing more midfield minutes and Bowey being a clever, strategic kick from the half back.  This seems to have worked well.

For our first few games we've had quite a bit of movement in the team due to injuries (Petty, Hore, May, Bowey and now Salem) which has made it hard week to week to gain cohesion and required us to blood some young ones (admittedly all doing a great job).  Our depth held up until this last game really.

Now, after a punishing timeframe of 4 games in 19 days, including some hard fought games, it's unsurprising that players young and old (and some understandably sore players like May, Brown and Oliver) had no energy this game.  The 12 day break should help us greatly.  But even so, it feels like that's a bandaid fix for what is a long season remaining.

All up, I'm not worried about dropping the Lions game but do worry that in the long run this season we're going to find it hard to keep the cavalry for success. Please help me find some optimism, guys!

Thanks also for the hard work and wonderful podcasts as always!  I've unfortunately had a string of late nights at work in the past month but each week it's a joy to listen to the pod hot off the press.

[Tracforever 47]

Hi guys thanks for the podcast, question for George.

what are your thoughts on bringing in Fullerton to back up Max and leave Van Rooyen in the F50. 
 

I feel that to see the best of Fritsch we need him to play the second or third tall so if we keep Van Rooyen up there I think we will have a more potent forward line.

[dino rover 714]

8 hours ago, smurf said:

Further to this do you agree or disagree with Kingy that Hit out stats are overrated.

 

“You would never pay big money for a tap ruckman” sheesh blasphemy on Demonland given our love of Max but reason says if you don’t dominate around the ground and can’t connect taps to clearances then you are wasting money

clubs who have a relatively [censored] low cost ruck Adelaide Geelong port Sydney Carlton gws west coast Brisbane 

others?

it’s academic I suppose because we aren’t trading Max …. But money ball says….

[defuture15 900]

I had a look at the replay and unfortunately that came with C7 commentary.

With the constant stoppage game occuring is that because they perfected the outnumber advantage that we usually give up? They cant play any better and we certainly could. Only 22 points down but one bad game that will give us many learnings. Think i had better go to the Gabba in the return match

[Old Man Rivers 326]

We have a midfield starting 4 the envy of most teams in the AFL with Big Max, Trac, Clarrie & the warrior Jack Viney however we seem to be getting dominated more often lately from sides like Brisbane, Sydney & Port Adelaide. How do we switch things up mid game to counter this dominance? Who should we add to the mix? Kozzie looks good when he makes cameo appearances & will be freed up even more shortly when McAdam makes his long awaited Demon Debut. Can Trent Rivers & Judd Mcvee transition into midfielder’s. What other options do we have to take back control & change things up in the midfield when we are getting dominated?

[Phil C 730]

More a comment than a question but we looked very flat against the Crows, as well as against the Brions. I’m hoping it’s simply fatigue and we come back after the break refreshed. Our focus must be to bank enough wins to make the top 4 and hopefully enter the finals with a healthy list. P.S. Billings should be dropped next week. 

[Tarax Club 3,960]

Thank you for the broadcast. I work remote sometimes and typically listen the next day. Dipping my toe, very briefly, into the swirling currents of the post game thread. Noted an astute observation, that as well as being beaten on field, the team was also beaten off field. It appears the Lions coaching panel and players had done their homework. 

Despite our reputation as having premium on ballers and a champion ruckman. The impotence of our performance at centre bounces and around the ground stoppages, was plain to see.

On the Coach will probably have the high-tech vision and the gee-wiz explanations. To put it simply, Max was barricaded by the Lions’ mids at every opportunity. The Demons’ mids were left riding around the outside, unable to get first hands on the ball.

Max Gawn’s statistical performance, in a losing side was lauded by many, but is it just a finger in the dyke?

Edited April 14 by Tarax Club
Trust the punctuation helps.

[monoccular 17,576]

Thanks guys for your hard work and entertaining presentations.  I look forward to these every week, maybe more so this week after a loss. 
There are those calling for widespread changes (or droppings) without really looking at replacements. 
The whole team looked flat as a pancake from the outset.  Was this fatigue or maybe even some sort of illness?  Some suggested drinking our Adelaide bathwater - warning: just don’t drink Adelaide water full stop!  I saw fatigue and up against a recent runner up desperate to get on the ladder.  
IMO Kolt added energy particularly early and although he didn’t star by any means he was far from worst.  Deserves another run. 
The big key forwards had a collective shocker but unlike in some of our earlier games the mids (maybe under more pressure) seemed to bomb high rather than low and long. Wouldn’t the latter be better even if into space than giving interceptors opportunities to do their thing? Certainly missed Kozzie and I hope he feels bad about not being there.  
JVR competes hard and his back up ruck work is really quite good.  No way would I drop him.  Still only a second year tall finding his feet. 
Some promising reports from Casey especially re Sestan, Brown, Verrall and maybe Fullerton and Laurie. Is Hunter in the hunt after only one game? Reports suggested his kicking lacked penetration though it usually does. 
BBB has made a surprising contribution though he looked more knackered than most.  Will the bye be enough or is it Fullerton (or Turner) time?        Although Salo hasn’t been at his best the early injury threw the balance out - have you seen enough of AMW to suggest he is ready?  Woey did a reasonable job though he is of course (at this stage anyway) no Salem  

So much to look forward to this week.   Thanks again and stay positive.