Circle work.

Northey, Daniher & Goodwin all excellent coaches

A number of variables including the strength of our lists and the strengths of the opposition lists

Hard to split them but the premiership might have Goodwin marginally in front

The major difference is in the recruitment on an overall basis ... these days we're always looking to improve an already top class list

Where as in the Northey & Daniher era's, we seemed to stop short once we got to a B or B+ level

The Hawks team during the Northey years were a superstar outfit where as in Daniher's time, the Lions & Bombers were far superior to our outfit

One could argue that we really only arrived as a fully fledged contender in 2021 so for that year and the following 2 years, we've been a genuine contender under Goodwin

2 more genuine years of contending (as well as this year) and with it, another premiership, then Goodwin will be well and truly ahead

But Northey & Daniher got the maximum out of the teams they coached ... add 4 or 5 top players to those era's and we would have tasted ultimate success in those days, in my view

Edited July 26, 20232 yr by Macca

And this comment is what it is all about 

8 hours ago, Macca said:

But Northey & Daniher got the maximum out of the teams they coached

The inference that we have 'generational players in our team' and thus Goodwin did not (has not) got the ''maximum' out of the team - which also goes hand in hand with the same posters saying our forward line is a shambles... in which case, perhaps Goodwin IS getting the maximum out of the team even if we fail to win another premiership.

The team of 1956, which has a fair argument for being the most dominant team in the history of the game, lost matches. In 1963 the premiers, Geelong, lost to Fitzroy and IIRC it was Fitzroy's only win for the season. Good teams do lose matches. To expect us to win every week, even against poorer sides, is unrealistic and doing so in no way damages our premiership credentials. On the other hand, winning against good sides, e g Collingwood on KB, establishes those credentials.

Deleted

Edited July 27, 20232 yr by Macca

The issue during the Daniher years was unfortunately we could never recruit a star player and that was purely due to having no money and [censored] poor facilities etc. In fact, we could barely recruit solid players consistently. 

Always felt had we been able to recruit a star player or two we could have potentially snagged a flag.

Losing Jeff Farmer put us back imo. 

3 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

And this comment is what it is all about 

The inference that we have 'generational players in our team' and thus Goodwin did not (has not) got the ''maximum' out of the team - which also goes hand in hand with the same posters saying our forward line is a shambles... in which case, perhaps Goodwin IS getting the maximum out of the team even if we fail to win another premiership.

Theiren lies the cognitive dissonance so apparent from many demonland critics of Goodwin.

Pick any point in time in that ridiculous is goody the right coach thread and note who his most vociferous critics are. 

Many such critics were/are also vociferous critics of our playing list.

So, a woeful coach who plays favorites, regularly gets outcoached on game day and has the fatal flaw of being boring (entertain us goody!, his pressers are so uninspiring! No wonder his players aren't inspired!) takes an average list to a flag. 

You'd think taking an average list to a flag makes him a genius coach. 

By the by, on teams with generational talent, I agree in oliver, Max and tracc we have three players who could be considered 'generational' talents. 

I don't mean really good, occasional AA selected A grade players, I mean players up with say the top 50 players in their era/generation.

Am i missing any?

No?

So that's three generational players goody has been fortunate to have in his team thus far. 

Leaving aside the fact those three players didn't reach their potential until at least 3-4 seasons into goody's tenure, goody has in fact won a flag in his six full seasons as senior coach. 

How many generational talents has Scott had at the cats? Ablett, Selwood, Danger, Hawkins, Stewart, and perhaps more recently Cameron?

So 5 or 6 generational players. And Scott had won just the two flags. And his first was in his first year of coaching when he inherited a premiership list.

Flags are hard to win. And goody won one in his 5th season of senior coaching after taking over a team that had been moored in the bottom half of the ladder for more than a decade, and was bereft of talent, other than a handful of future stars. 

It is mind boggling that some dees fans still refuse to give the credit he is due.

It is mind altering that some dees fans actually consider he has under achieved.

Edited July 27, 20232 yr by binman

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

And this comment is what it is all about 

The inference that we have 'generational players in our team' and thus Goodwin did not (has not) got the ''maximum' out of the team - which also goes hand in hand with the same posters saying our forward line is a shambles... in which case, perhaps Goodwin IS getting the maximum out of the team even if we fail to win another premiership.

There are only just over 20 coaches who got stuck on a single premiership in 125 years (and lots who won zilch including Northey and Daniher).  That’s no disrespect to them, as premierships are really hard to win.  But the great coaches consistently get the best out of their list and therefore the other 80% of premierships are won by multiple premiership coaches.

Of the 20 coaches to win a single premiership, some are probably mediocre coaches who were a bit lucky.  Worsfold did incredibly well in his first 6 years with a great list (a lot better w-l than Goody).  But he could probably be judged as a mediocre coach as when that list went he got really average results for his last 9 years.

So it’s over to Goody really.  Win another flag and end the debate. If the second youngest premiership team ever never win another flag, then the debate as to whether Goody was a good coach or not will go on forever.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

There was no inference

You are jumping ar shadows

And you are being disingenuous by editing and taking me out of context

Whoa big fella, that wasn't a crack at you, or even an attempt to manipulate your words by putting them into a different context. I used what you wrote, to speak of a wider viewpoint on Demonland.

I thought what you wrote was completely valid, and that most commentary on the Demonland community is around that Goodwin has failed as a coach if we don't get a least a second premiership.

Edited July 26, 20232 yr by Engorged Onion

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

The issue during the Daniher years was unfortunately we could never recruit a star player and that was purely due to having no money and [censored] poor facilities etc. In fact, we could barely recruit solid players consistently. 

Always felt had we been able to recruit a star player or two we could have potentially snagged a flag.

Losing Jeff Farmer put us back imo. 

100%.

In particular not having A grade mids really hurt I reckon.

Personally I think the impact of coaches is overrated.

The talent on the list is the critical element in my opinion. 

Just look at clarkson's record at the hawks once he didn't have buddy, roughly, rioli, Lewis etc etc at his disposal.

8 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Whoa big fella, that wasn't a crack at you, or even an attempt to manipulate your words by putting them into a different context. I used what you wrote, to speak of a wider viewpoint on Demonland.

I thought what you wrote was completely valid, and that most commentary on the Demonland community is around that Goodwin has failed as a coach if we don't get a least a second premiership.

Ha ha!  Apologies my good man!

I do find it hard to seperate the 3 aforementioned coaches as they were/are excellent coaches

And there's probably been any number of other excellent coaches that had the one thing in common - a lack of quality players

Ridley, Skilton & Big Carl fall into that bracket

Laurie Fowler for instance reckons that Ditterich was his best coach and he played under Hafey & RDB

11 hours ago, Macca said:

Northey, Daniher & Goodwin all excellent coaches

A number of variables including the strength of our lists and the strengths of the opposition lists

Hard to split them but the premiership might have Goodwin marginally in front

The major difference is in the recruitment on an overall basis ... these days we're always looking to improve an already top class list

Where as in the Northey & Daniher era's, we seemed to stop short once we got to a B or B+ level

The Hawks team during the Northey years were a superstar outfit where as in Daniher's time, the Lions & Bombers were far superior to our outfit

One could argue that we really only arrived as a fully fledged contender in 2021 so for that year and the following 2 years, we've been a genuine contender under Goodwin

2 more genuine years of contending (as well as this year) and with it, another premiership, then Goodwin will be well and truly ahead

But Northey & Daniher got the maximum out of the teams they coached ... add 4 or 5 top players to those era's and we would have tasted ultimate success in those days, in my view

Agree Macca I thought the same we failed the continuous improvement axioms we had really good teams but failed to continue the build to excellence whereas Bombers, Lions and Hawks were more ruthless with their recruitment. If Swooper and Danners had TL and JT in their corner who knows.!!

Not only has Goodwin's tenure been awesome, I truly enjoy watching this team play. Goodwin said that as supporters, we need to buy into the contest and defensive work and not just the flashy forward of center things. I love the guts and hardness that this team shows. Whenever i see our boys gut running hard to support a team mate, I love it as much as the flashy quick ball movement. 

1 hour ago, binman said:

100%.

In particular not having A grade mids really hurt I reckon.

Personally I think the impact of coaches is overrated.

The talent on the list is the critical element in my opinion. 

Just look at clarkson's record at the hawks once he didn't have buddy, roughly, rioli, Lewis etc etc at his disposal.

Fly > Buckley.

On 7/25/2023 at 2:09 PM, Dee Zephyr said:

2020 wasn’t a fail, initially i thought it was. The team that year was trained the Burgo way, to run over teams as the game went on.  
Covid put an end to that.

We just missed out on finals in 2020. We finished the season strongly and if it wasn’t truncated to 17 rounds we could easily have made the finals and been a flag chance given the disruptions to all clubs. 

Edited July 27, 20232 yr by John Crow Batty

10 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Fly > Buckley.

Buckley was one kick away from winning a flag.

Get back to me when mcrae has even made a gf.

3 hours ago, binman said:

100%.

In particular not having A grade mids really hurt I reckon.

Personally I think the impact of coaches is overrated.

The talent on the list is the critical element in my opinion. 

Just look at clarkson's record at the hawks once he didn't have buddy, roughly, rioli, Lewis etc etc at his disposal.

Spot on.....Alan Joyce at Hawthorn when he took over for one year from Jeans.  They had won the Premiership in '86, runners up in '87 and under Joyce ruined our hopes in '88, and took out the Premiership in '89. 

2 hours ago, binman said:

Buckley was one kick away from winning a flag.

Get back to me when mcrae has even made a gf.

And? They didn’t win it. Fly had the Pies 1 kick away from a GF birth in his first year, in 2021 they finished 17th, and many would argue they don’t have the best list this year but are playing like millionaires. Amazingly what an impact a good coach can have.
 

All I can take out of this thread is that you think the impact of coaches is overrated. I think many most would disagree, and that it was imperative that BBB play on a wet track against GWS to get him cherry rope for finals even though finals were roughly 9 weeks away, and that loss has the potential to cost us a top 2 spot, and finishing top 2 would give us our best chance at winning the flag, but that’s all right because as you said it’s not about winning the battles but it’s about winning the war.

Again, circle work….

Edited July 27, 20232 yr by Bombay Airconditioning

16 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

And? They didn’t win it. Fly had the Pies 1 kick away from a GF birth in his first year, in 2021 they finished 17th, and many would argue they don’t have the best list this year but are playing like millionaires. Amazingly what an impact a good coach can have.
 

All I can take out of this thread is that you think the impact of coaches is overrated. I think many most would disagree, and that it was imperative that BBB play on a wet track against GWS to get him cherry rope for finals even though finals were roughly 9 weeks away, and that loss has the potential to cost us a top 2 spot, and finishing top 2 would give us our best chance at winning the flag, but that’s all right because as you said it’s not about winning the battles but it’s about winning the war.

Again, circle work….

Deep man.

You think mcrae is a better coach than Buckley. Got it.

How will you assess him if the pies don't win the flag this year, given every person and their dog think it is pies and then daylight and they are a lock for top spot with 5 games to go? On him or the players?

Ps - I guess circle work is supposed to be a clever retort of some sort? But I've got zero idea what it refers to, so if it is some sort of attempt at a clever sledge, a heads up, it hasn't landed.

4 hours ago, Watson11 said:

 

So it’s over to Goody really.  Win another flag and end the debate. If the second youngest premiership team ever never win another flag, then the debate as to whether Goody was a good coach or not will go on forever.

ATM he's had 2 good years & 4 poor years.

2022 was a disaster & we got no explanation from the Club.

Gawn stated that 6 players went into the finals injured. This largely due to the BT playing guys who were out of form or carrying niggles despite any number of potential replacements killing it at Casey.

3 hours ago, DeeZone said:

Agree Macca I thought the same we failed the continuous improvement axioms we had really good teams but failed to continue the build to excellence whereas Bombers, Lions and Hawks were more ruthless with their recruitment. If Swooper and Danners had TL and JT in their corner who knows.!!

Another way to size things up would be to compare the best 23 from the 3 era's (Northey, Daniher & Goodwin)

Not forgetting that the lists were set up in some ways by Barassi, Balme & Roos

A task for @WERRIDEE who would no doubt relish such an undertaking

Edited July 27, 20232 yr by Macca

On 7/24/2023 at 10:54 AM, Nasher said:

On top of that, in the last few years in particular we’ve hardly lost a player we’d prefer to have kept other than Jackson, and all our best players have signed long term deals.

Nuh. Jackson sucks. 

1 hour ago, Cranky Franky said:

ATM he's had 2 good years & 4 poor years.

2022 was a disaster & we got no explanation from the Club.

Gawn stated that 6 players went into the finals injured. This largely due to the BT playing guys who were out of form or carrying niggles despite any number of potential replacements killing it at Casey.

Oh man you are hillarious! No explanation from the club? You're right.. they themselves didn't explicitly announce it....

"

4 Sept 2022 — Melbourne star Christian Petracca is set to play through the pain of a broken leg, after scans revealed a “minor” hairline fracture from a nasty ..."

"

The extent to which Melbourne’s premiership defence last season was compromised by injury keeps coming to light.

That superstar Christian Petracca played the semi-final loss to the Brisbane Lions with a hairline fracture in his right fibula was already known. So, too, was Max Gawn’s hip ailment, one that almost saw him miss that game. And Clayton Oliver had been carrying a thumb injury through the back end of the season."

It's good to see you subscribe to the 'one soldier in, one soldier out' mentality....with all the Casey replacements killing it. That's not how the reality of it all works though.

The team would be poorer if Dunstan was in for Oliver, JVR (2022 version) in for Gawn, Turner in for Lever, Melksham in for Petracca etc etc. Or is that just me?

23 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

 

It's good to see you subscribe to the 'one soldier in, one soldier out' mentality....with all the Casey replacements killing it. That's not how the reality of it all works though.

The team would be poorer if Dunstan was in for Oliver, JVR (2022 version) in for Gawn, Turner in for Lever, Melksham in for Petracca etc etc. Or is that just me?

It started with Langdon being rushed back & playing with a sleeping bag taped round his chest & finished with a broken team that struggled to compete.

Ironically when we were forced to ruck with a fit Brown & Weid in one game we actually won.

Bedford, Chandler, Baker & several others were badly under utilised instead of replacing injured & out of form players.

2 hours ago, binman said:

You think mcrae is a better coach than Buckley. Got it.

How will you assess him if the pies don't win the flag this year, given every person and their dog think it is pies and then daylight and they are a lock for top spot with 5 games to go? On him or the players?

MaCrae has already proved he is better at making players perform and more tactically innovative than Buckley. And with the same list Buckley had got them from 17th to top 4 in no time. I don't think the Pies win the flag this year and expect us to dismantle them, but that won't change my opinion of MacRae.

Don't get me started on how poor a coach Buckley is though.  He inherited the best position imaginable (better than what Scott inherited at Geelong). Pies were the youngest ever premiers in 2010 (oldest player was 28).  Lost only 3 games in 2011 (one was the GF).  They should have contended for the next 6 years, but it went downhill and they underperformed 6 years in a row.  Maybe unlucky to lose 2018 GF by a kick, but on the flipside very lucky to coach a team that gets a dream draw and could easily have finished outside the top 4 if they had to play Geelong in Geelong and we got to play Geelong only at the G!  You could also argue he was lucky they made the GF in 2018 and can probably thank a very ordinary 7ft beanpole who fluked about 10 marks in 15 minutes in a prelim.  He was not a good coach by any measure considering the list he inherited and the support and resources that club has.