Garry Lyon analysis

[Deemania since 56 6,635]

13 hours ago, SFebes said:

The sad part about this is its nothing new, its been going on for years. It's a sad state of affairs and is so messy, it just looks like the plan is to get it in and create chaos. Dumb footy, you see more leads in bush footy.

The key is 'stepping stones to goal' being overlooked for the low percentage magnificent long delivery to static forwards too far behind opportunities to bother getting to space early. We must have at least two mobile forwards - CDF. Brown is not the answer and Smith, Chandler, JJ, Sparrow and Kozzie are the answer - running parallel at appreciable speed to the forward entry 'long bomber' - and supporting the next link in the chain, and this will adjust the scoring probability immensely. Who is preventing this from occurring? It's Goodwin, time and again - and ANB et al are contained to establish a ball-up (allegedly maintaining 'possession' - fat chance). We have ailing rucks, limited creative play basics and almost no attacking supports. 

[58er 6,431]

7 hours ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

I don’t listen to Mr “Get Neeld” Lyon.

Hes out of touch with Melbourne.

That's 11/13 years ago !!! Doesn't change his ability to read and summarise a game. You are a RJay clone with no idea of footy tactics or basics Gary has been involved for over 20 years and his summary was 100 % perfect. Hope our dumb Coaches and footy players were listening. 

Trouble is Goody is so stubborn he can't see any changes till far too late!

Refer Petty vsLions in last quarter of Semi going forward with 5/6 mins left!!!

Refer Petty played a good half before injury vs Hawks as CHF  Now this has been abandoned even after Tommo played a magnificent game vs Pies. Why ffs!!!???? 

He had Kossie in the middle earlier in season with some success but no longer now Why not again ???? 

Goody still persisting with same forwards/mids who are a shadow of themselves of 2021 ie Harmes ANB and Spargo and Chin is in need of a Casey call up like JVR 

Also seems incapable of getting Stafford to produce another forward plan involving other players Like last year persisting too long with failure.

At least Taj and Howes have been consistently good for a few matches try them. Disco is prob another but the defence is not the issue refer though to my comments re Petty and Tommo. 

 We do not help ourselves really making dumb on field and off field decisions or in this case no decisions at all or forgetting some previous ideas which had some merit.

 

7 hours ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

I don’t listen to Mr “Get Neeld” Lyon.

Hes out of touch with Melbourne.

[58er 6,431]

8 hours ago, IRW said:

 you think Harmes is the problem?

More like the scapegoat.

The A graders are the problem 

Describe WHY the A graders ( who they are) please individually and why are they only the ones at fault. 

[dee-tox 4,835]

11 hours ago, layzie said:

Totally forgot about the Nibbler whiffed kick to Hunter, just a simple pop up would have done it.

That was the game! Pathetic execution.

[dee-tox 4,835]

10 hours ago, IRW said:

 you think Harmes is the problem?

More like the scapegoat.

The A graders are the problem 

It's a collective problem. None of our mids have elite kicking skills. We are an exceptionally strong see ball get ball team. The game plan is to bomb long to an outnumbered forward line and hopefully scrounge a goal more often than the opposition. It's not a good system but one based on our skill set. 

[Rab D Nesbitt 8,367]

Due to list constraints and salary caps we can only turn over so many average players each year. In Europe any forward playing as poorly as ours are would just be shipped off to a side in a lower league or to another country to find their true level and instantly replaced. In our game there’s also a finite number of high quality individuals you can target to improve your team. All sides have to carry a sizeable number of average footballers and try and coax the best they can from them and it’s just unfortunate that ours are mostly at one end of the ground. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,212]

18 hours ago, DubDee said:

clearly not.

tired players, pressure high, wet ball. much easier to slam it on the boot.

Bowey McVee and Sales are the only ones with any composure, although it can be easier down back with less 360 degree pressure

One of these three need to be moved forward of the ball. No point getting good kicks to half forward then [censored] the bed inside 50.

[rjay 24,919]

7 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Lol. 

He's been in the game/media since he retired! 

Even if his footage and analysis isn't ground breaking, it is still absolutely relevant. 

And far more relevant than what you have to say. As well as all others who seem to have a chip on their shoulder due to the fact that he actually critiques us from time to time. 

Some supporters simply can't take it if the club is criticised. Ye old mate @Rhino Richardsis one who consistently 'likes' the defending brigade or 'faceplams' posts that criticise us.

How's that armchair going ol' rhino boy! 

You do understand that Gary is first & foremost an entertainer, a football personality. Whether good or not is up to personal taste...

He's been in the media since he retired, not in the game. He's never coached at AFL level...

I have no issue with him critiquing us...I just don't put as much weight in that critique as you seem too.

I would love to hear Chris Scott's critique, that would be very relevant.

I would also love to get a full backgrounding from our FD on our game plan

Of course that won't happen.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,212]

17 hours ago, rjay said:

I'm not a fan of Gary's analysis at the best of times. I think he's been out of the game for far too long to be relevant.

Also he has never coached at the level.

Unfortunately this is the case with most of the so called experts.

They are really not football experts they are football personalities.

Maybe Hardwick would be interesting for a year or so but unfortunately I think coaches who want to get back in the game hold their cards too close and don't really give everything away.

 

By that reasoning no one other than recent ex-players can comment.

[rjay 24,919]

3 hours ago, 58er said:

Trouble is Goody is so stubborn he can't see any changes till far too late!

You know him do you '58er', or is this just guesswork from afar?

[rjay 24,919]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

By that reasoning no one other than recent ex-players can comment.

No, anyone can comment.

I mean we do all the time...sometimes we may be on the mark, a lot of times we aren't.

We're even further removed.

I just find that the longer someone has been out of the game the less they should retain expert status.

I don't take what Gary and his cohort say as gospel, I just think of them as footy personalities in the hunt for ratings.

Sometimes they have interesting points but more often than not they pick low hanging fruit...and say the obvious without any consequences.

I do like to hear from players but more specifically coaches who are fresh out of the game.

I find Brenton Sanderson interesting listening.

[layzie 33,796]

1 minute ago, rjay said:

No, anyone can comment.

I mean we do all the time...sometimes we may be on the mark, a lot of times we aren't.

We're even further removed.

I just find that the longer someone has been out of the game the less they should retain expert status.

I don't take what Gary and his cohort say as gospel, I just think of them as footy personalities in the hunt for ratings.

Sometimes they have interesting points but more often than not they pick low hanging fruit...and say the obvious without any consequences.

I do like to hear from players but more specifically coaches who are fresh out of the game.

I find Brenton Sanderson interesting listening.

Most of his points were real common sense stuff though Rjay. Kicking to 2 on ones in the pocket when there's an easy short option available, Nibbler needing the poise to get a little dink kick to Hunter and just better overall decision making required.  

See your point though, might listen to Sando more.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,212]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

No, anyone can comment.

I mean we do all the time...sometimes we may be on the mark, a lot of times we aren't.

We're even further removed.

I just find that the longer someone has been out of the game the less they should retain expert status.

I don't take what Gary and his cohort say as gospel, I just think of them as footy personalities in the hunt for ratings.

Sometimes they have interesting points but more often than not they pick low hanging fruit...and say the obvious without any consequences.

I do like to hear from players but more specifically coaches who are fresh out of the game.

I find Brenton Sanderson interesting listening.

What did he say specifically that you disagree with though? You might prefer one commentator over another which is fine but length of time out of the game is not a singular metric you can rely on to say "this person's comments are worthless" which is effectively what you're saying.

Someone who has never played at the highest level may be one of the most insightful people to listen to whereas a current player/coach may actually have little idea. It's just a meaningless throwaway line to say "he's been out of the game too long what would he know".

[beelzebub 23,362]

57 minutes ago, rjay said:

No, anyone can comment.

I mean we do all the time...sometimes we may be on the mark, a lot of times we aren't.

We're even further removed.

I just find that the longer someone has been out of the game the less they should retain expert status.

I don't take what Gary and his cohort say as gospel, I just think of them as footy personalities in the hunt for ratings.

Sometimes they have interesting points but more often than not they pick low hanging fruit...and say the obvious without any consequences.

I do like to hear from players but more specifically coaches who are fresh out of the game.

I find Brenton Sanderson interesting listening.

Im struggling to understand your miff .

Is it you simply dont like Garry Lyon.  You have a grievance?  Are you oly prepared to give weight to comments if the source is amenable? 

It in many ways is irrelevant who or why the comments exist , though there's an argument possible to voracity applied by people according to whatever litmus.That said the comments can be viewed in their own right and critiqued.

Just about everything that was highlighted is spot on. And thats the context is should be viewed ..imo

Was what was said correct or not irrelevant of who said it .

If we were to broadly disect our game into 3rds. 1) back half ( defence ) 2) middle/guts and 3) forward 50.. scoring  , then i don't think it a stretch to suggest that we get Defence pretty right. It works ad well. It wobble occasionally with selection but over all, it's good.

We're ok through the middle . Our mids on a par with most good teams. We're at times brilliant, at times lamentable..overall... a pass.. we're ok and generally effective. 

Our Front half.....  and this is where all the concern.is, this is where all the current talk emanates. Its a mess. I was to suggest there's no system, but there is... kick it ( bomb it ) into a crowded contest..apply manic garbled efforts...hope for best.

Whereas our defence and transition through the middle shows skill, adeptness, thought and coherent style, once it gets forward that all disappears... there's nada.

As a game style we're bipolar..  Jeckyl and Hyde.

The description and critical clarifications as offered by Lyon were well founded.

Its rather ageist to suggest someone has little idea, or irrelevance because as you put it he's so long out of the game. He played 226 games in red and blue. He has some idea. He's not been too far from the game ever since

There's a lot of commentary out there by the media from people who as far as i know have played stuff all footy at a high level. 

I don't simply afford Garry automatic accolade . I dont suggest what he says is either better or worse  than others simply for his past efforts or allegiance.  Ive simple looked and listened to his evaluation and considered it upon merit.

I can't see where he's wrong and he's explained it , to me, quite effectively as I would expect from someone who spent a lot of time playing footy in that same said forward 50 paddock.

He was a very good forward  and knows what he's talking about. The essentials of the game haven't changed.

That said if someone else had presented the exact same review i would still agree with it for the simple reasons the fundamentals are acurate.

[rjay 24,919]

I give up...no miff.

Just making the comment that I would prefer to here from experts who are just out of the game.

That's all.

...and maybe we need to look at the list.

Yes nibbler makes mistakes...he's not an A grader, he's going to hit some, he's going to miss some.

Some on here seem to think we don't have enough skilled players then complain and blame Goody when these not skilled players can't hit targets or our game plan is developed around these not skilled players to get the best result we can.

I mean you 'Jimmy'

We overrate our list on here if we thing we should be a generational team...we're not, we're a good team in amongst a group of other good teams. We're a chance if all goes right.

...and last week a lot were complaining that we didn't play wet weather football, handball and played too much of a possession game.

Well guess what, this week we went territory and didn't PF around with the ball and still that's not right.

Yep, I give up.

...and maybe look at what Gary was saying to Carlton a few weeks ago about playing Curnow up the ground more like Cameron.

Guess what, Voss took the advice and Carlton couldn't kick a goal...funnily enough Curnow is there number one goal kicker and he was running around up the ground.

It's easy to make comments when you have no responsibility for the outcome...

edit...by the way, did I say I give up.

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by rjay

[samcantstandya 1,045]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

One of these three need to be moved forward of the ball. No point getting good kicks to half forward then [censored] the bed inside 50.

You'd think by now the brains trust who've figured putting one of Bowey, McVee or Salem in the forward 50 to convert. Whilst it's gr8 having elite kicks in back half all their efforts turn to crud if there's no one to finish it off. Spargo cops criticism but he always looks for a pass and even if he could bomb it like a Rivers he nearly always chooses the right option. I wish we had more players that have high footy IQ like these 4 instead of ones that bomb it a contest often ignoring free players and bypassing them and then the ball comes straight out on a counter attack. For example Rivers late in the game kicked it over CP5 who was free at CHF to Brown who contested with 3 defenders.

[jnrmac 20,060]

15 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Nibbler has cost us the game twice now time for him to be dropped. The kick that went to no one off the side of his boot on the half forward line. Probably cost us the game. 

ANB was terrible and fumbly when he began as a player. So much so he was put on the trade list with no takers. He came back and was an integral part of our premiership. 

But I have noticed that how has now returned to that fumbly unreliable player. In particular when he is about to be tackled he hugs the ball and goes to ground. It looks like its under instruction - to create a stoppage - but it seems to be happening more and more.

Is letting us down increasingly so not sure what to do with him.

[The heart beats true 18,123]

The issue that I have with all football commentary is the consistent desire to focus on the last game, and not the game plan. 

Just like players are focused on game plan as opposed to recent result, the media is purely focused on the last game. I wish someone would fill the gap in between - where they tried to convey the nuances of how teams structure and play a certain way.

Garry is doing his job, but for mine the brief for him is wrong, or should at least be more balanced.

[beelzebub 23,362]

3 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

The issue that I have with all football commentary is the consistent desire to focus on the last game, and not the game plan. 

Just like players are focused on game plan as opposed to recent result, the media is purely focused on the last game. I wish someone would fill the gap in between - where they tried to convey the nuances of how teams structure and play a certain way.

Garry is doing his job, but for mine the brief for him is wrong, or should at least be more balanced.

Hes highlighting an issue thats been our bug bear for most of the season. We're clueless forward. Intuitive forward craft gets burnt by what must be a directive.  The spotlight is now firmly again on us as we're faltering....again.  Yes the media love a beat up often. They look around for easy targets mostly.....and by christ we make ourselves an easy subject for commentary.

How exactly was he supposed to be more 'balanced'....is that some form of 'affirmitive journalism' ??   Like saying...well Melbourne are [censored] up...but it's forgivable because...X, Y or Z ?

He, and many others, are unfortuntaely just being very matter of fact about it.. It's invariably we supporters that add a tint to our observations...Take that away... it's not pretty

[fr_ap 2,484]

Might just be me but I thought the clips Lyon showed barely made his point at all.

Most involved risky 15-20m hit up kicks to players 45 out in the corridor. The Petracca kick to the 3 on 1 in the pocket in particular - neither of the short Sparrow or Brayshaw kicks were on & would likely have resulted in a corridor turnover leading to a score against. It's very easy to watch from afar & make a judgement on kick difficulty without any real sense of depth/difficulty/conditions. Trac assessed the options - and decided it wasnt worth the risk. This is also why neither brayshaw or Sparrow asked for the ball. 

I'm not saying we should never take those kicks - but there is a time and a place. Hitting them into an already flooded d50 from a slow play off the HFF/Wing is not the time. Collingwood hit them - but they hit them when they are streaming down the ground and have defenders scrambling (or off turnover). 

Ironically, Rivers actually took the kick Lyon was asking for to a leading Brown on the fat side in the other example, even though Lyon in that case said he should have handballed to Chandler (which I agree with). The result was Rivers missed the kick, Taylor marked and the Giants took it down the other end for a goal. 

Let's not pretend he is some savant footy analyst. 

Our gamestyle has proven effective at turning us into a top team over a long period of time. It's not perfect, and at the moment its a little broken, but we've fixed it before. Throwing all caution to the wind and trying to hit risky corridor kicks that our skill profile doesn't allow is not the way.

[MoeSyzlak 669]

16 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

 

I hope Schache gets a gig

Why?

He is one of the least competitive footballers I’ve seen. Plays from behind and absolutely terrified of contact. 

[DemonOX 8,791]

15 hours ago, IRW said:

 you think Harmes is the problem?

More like the scapegoat.

The A graders are the problem 

He is one of the problems but not the sole player. 

[beelzebub 23,362]

In my minds eye the problem is not that Lyon's commentary/analysis is encroaching on savant, it's more that he's  Captain Obvious.  He's just examplifying what any number of us are saying. Up da front we're shizen. And as if to make it worse it's by design.  The design has seen its day, its moment in the sun, its now very yesterday.

Those that proffer we change the magnets around i can only say it wont matter what you name your pieces if youre trying to play draughts not chess. 

We have the right game at one end....the wrong one the other.  If we dont change it.....why would there be a different result ? 

We cant rely on the weather (save sat )...and then we get to play upon the shifting sands  ..otherwise known as that less marvellous colosseum .

[Macca 16,963]

If ever we should take risks with our kicks it's when those kicks enter the forward line

But we won't or don't take risks and prefer to bomb the ball in chaos style

But the opposition teams know what we're going to do and plan accordingly.  They flood back as early as possible so those long bombs end up directed to large packs

Very difficult to take marks in those circumstances and our front & centre smalls are often nowhere to be seen to further add to the issue

But none of the above is news.  Numerous people here as well as myself have been saying the same thing since early last year

So it's really an assistant coach/coaching issue as the players are obviously kicking the ball into the forward line under instruction

In simple terms we need to change our whole approach.  We will not be winning the flag with our current method

Lower the eyes, forwards to lead constantly and pass the ball into the forward line.  When that doesn't work defend well from that point and further back

It's not rocket science

[Tolstoys Nudge 1,658]

22 hours ago, Cheap Seats said:

And player drop off as well.

Bbb nowhere near it.

Tmac could impact and kick straight, now nowhere to be seen.

Fritsch selfish and can't finish 

Koz is koz at least he can hit a target and make things happen.

Tracc can't finish

Our half forward are too defensive but that's a game style thing.

Grundy is ineffective I'd rather play schache

Gawn down on form.

Do we have anyone else? Just a complete [censored] show down there which is complicated by ineffective midfield ball use.

Viney is tough as nails but rarely hits anything. Although in fairness to him he's been better this year and has plenty of company.

 

I thought BBB looked good, esp given conditions! Expect 3-4 this week