On 30/05/2023 at 05:19, loges said:

More than the previous 57 years 

Yes but only 1    so far

How about we develop a strategy that DOESN'T  involve lobbing bombs into very tall forwards...

I know daft huh..

Then you can go more for players that have craft and skills...

Even sillier i know.

We NEED to evolve 

  On 30/05/2023 at 05:20, Redleg said:

He could possibly help, but you are adding another not big key forward, to a side that needs them.

We really need a 25 year old Tom Lynch, more than anything. Then Roo and Fritta could compliment him.

Possibly our best hope would be Verrall in the next few years.

Could a 31-year Lynch do a job for us?

Very low probability but could we persuade Richmond to part with him. They've stuffed up their list management adding the GWS mids on long contracts and given they're on the downward slide, a new coach coming in etc. etc. they might just be prepared to trade. He'd have a shot at another flag so we might appeal to him. He's getting on and is starting to become injury prone so that's a consideration, but he could be a stopgap for a couple of years while Jefferson develops. We'd have to match the salary Richmond are paying him, but he wouldn't cost much in picks.

I would have to overcome a very strong dislike for the bloke but if he kicks the goals that propel us to a flag I'll get over it.

  On 30/05/2023 at 07:18, beelzebub said:

How about we develop a strategy that DOESN'T  involve lobbing bombs into very tall forwards...

What’s your plan in a slow play against a set defence?

What is something else we could do?

  On 30/05/2023 at 07:39, Axis of Bob said:

What’s your plan in a slow play against a set defence?

What is something else we could do?

Youre kidding arent you... just deliberately  provocative..lol   

You control the ball.   Might mean slowing the the process.. its called tempo.

You direct shorter infusions.

You dont do what we currently  do...just kick it in hope.  Thats beyond dumb.

You only kick to a contest where the odds are in your favour.  We cant cut a sandwich to save ourselves currently... so maybe go back to what we can

Theres the old adage... you can only do/change/impact that which you can. We don't...we just blaze away... stupidity to the Nth.

Almost like Kenny... know when to hold....know when to fold...   otherwise....if your leads aren't "on"..  go sideways

...wait for the gap. 

Currently we're dumber than [censored]

  On 30/05/2023 at 10:57, beelzebub said:

You control the ball.   Might mean slowing the the process.. its called tempo.

You direct shorter infusions.

You dont do what we currently  do...just kick it in hope.  Thats beyond dumb.

So if you're 70m out, and they have 18 players inside 50 because we played slow 'tempo' footy to chip the ball up the field, we just do another short kick to a free option inside 50, right?

With 18 defenders in a small space, that would be pretty tough to hit a free target, wouldn't it? 

My guess is that we are more likely to have that ball intercepted .... with lots of free space between that player and the opposition goals, which is a prime 'turnover goal' scenario. 

I think in that scenario you'd rather take a throw in in the pocket where you could score a goal from stoppage rather than a likely opposition score from a turnover at the top of the 50.

Remember that we don't have to score a high number of points, we just have to score now than the opposition. There a reason why every other team also kicks the ball long to the pocket in that situation. We just need to be better at scoring from it.

  On 30/05/2023 at 10:57, beelzebub said:

You control the ball.   Might mean slowing the the process.. its called tempo.

Yeah, it's not 1998 mate.

  On 30/05/2023 at 06:38, Redleg said:

Yes we would probably ask the question. I see him as very similar to Fritta.

If he were similar enough to kick 6 goals in a GF that would do it for me 🤗🙄

  On 30/05/2023 at 12:23, A F said:

Yeah, it's not 1998 mate.

Are you agreeing or naysaying...hard to tell with such a glib comment.

Football isnt that complicated.

If you disagree perhaps try putting a few reasoned words together and offering an alternate view. Im happy to read it.

 

  On 30/05/2023 at 12:47, beelzebub said:

Are you agreeing or naysaying...hard to tell with such a glib comment.

Football isnt that complicated.

If you disagree perhaps try putting a few reasoned words together and offering an alternate view. Im happy to read it.

 

Football is hugely complex. Just dipping into tempo and expecting that this will somehow beat the modern zone is... I can't quite believe you're putting it forward mate. I've seen you and others write that all we do is bomb long to contests**. Well, if you play tempo (ie slow), you will not beat the modern zone, and you'll end up having to bomb it long to contests to get any sort of decent forward territory.

Sure, there's a time for tempo, but as a way of defending and conserving energy, not as a way of scoring or expecting clean forward entries.

** I'd take issue with this assessment. That's mostly all we did against Freo, but for the majority of the year, we've been better than our 2022 incarnation in that respect.

Edited May 30, 20231 yr by A F

We need a capable forward. Would’ve thought it was a more pressing issue than Grundy last trade period. McKay is also probably gettable. Not for us. 

  On 30/05/2023 at 02:09, Axis of Bob said:

I feel like a lot of people don't watch Himmelberg play.

We don't need nice moving slightly undersized key forwards, we already have the likes of JVR and McDonald. Imagine that you bring in Himmelberg (along with Brown, McDonald/JVR) and that you're playing against a defence of May, Lever and Hibberd - then try to work out who plays on which forward. Unless you confidently say 'May has to go to Himmelberg' then what's the point of brining him in? If it were me, I'd probably play May on Brown, Lever on McDonald, and Hibberd on Himmelberg ... and if that's the case then what's the point?

We need a big forward that the opposition has to pay respect to first against the long ball. We're fine when the ball moves quickly with our range of mobile forwards, which is more of Himmelberg's game. In other words, we're not lacking the skill that he brings so why bother chasing him (or a player like him)?

My sense is that it's you that doesn't watch much of him? 

Himmelberg is 195cm. Which is around the average key position height I would have thought. 

He plays tall because he is a competitive beast in the air. He crashes packs, takes marks and doesn't allow oppo to outbody him like McDonald and Brown. He's also far more effective at ground level. 

I'm not sure how many more differences you'd like pointed out? 

If your argument is that he's not the '200cm + monster key forward that oppo need to respect' then where is that player coming from can I ask? And when? Given we're a team in the window now. 

Himmelberg is a stop-gap key position player who possesses a skill set that T Mac and Brown simply do not. I'm not sure how you think he is similar to either of them? 

Don’t worry about Himmelberg, go after Naughton

  On 30/05/2023 at 07:18, beelzebub said:

How about we develop a strategy that DOESN'T  involve lobbing bombs into very tall forwards...

 

Who are our very tall forwards, other than BBB who is at Casey.

  On 30/05/2023 at 23:39, Redleg said:

Who are our very tall forwards, other than BBB who is at Casey.

You know what he bb is saying. 

 

As an aside, it is the very thing that will stunt JVR’s development - the way we move the footy and kick to packs in slow play. 

There’s no forward craft there, there is no lessons in movement and finding space, he will have to go defensive side of wing to get footy and no one gives a [censored] when your CHF is doing that.

  On 30/05/2023 at 14:40, JimmyGadson said:

He plays tall because he is a competitive beast in the air. He crashes packs, takes marks and doesn't allow oppo to outbody him like McDonald and Brown.

That is 100% not true. 

Himmelberg likes to play away from body contact in marking contests and tries to get away from his man. He takes his contested marks from jumping at the ball when he doesn't have body pressure, rather than being able to stand under the ball. He's athletic and decent at ground level but he's not any sort of pack crasher unless he has an uninterrupted ran at the ball. He isn't a body on body player.

Since 2020 in games that he's played as a forward, he's taken 0.9 contested marks per game. As a bit of context, the maligned Brown (1.3) and McDonald (1.1) have been better contested marks than him, and Roo is the same in his first 9 AFL games (0.9cmpg). And this is while being able to play as a second string forward whilst Hogan (2.1 cmpg in 2023) does the heavy lifting up forward.

  On 30/05/2023 at 14:40, JimmyGadson said:

Himmelberg is a stop-gap key position player who possesses a skill set that T Mac and Brown simply do not. I'm not sure how you think he is similar to either of them? 

He's a different player to Brown and is an upgrade on McDonald as a mobile key forward. Our best tall forward for that role at the moment is probably Petty.

Remember that we have a salary cap and only a certain amount of money to spend on our players. You think we should throw money at an expensive free agent who doesn't really solve any of our problems simply because he's a 'stop-gap' KPP for our window. What are we giving up by spending all our money on Himmelberg? Will we lose good players? Will we miss a player that we genuinely want? Will we be stuck with a forward line that is still not functioning in 5 years because we still have Himmelberg on the list, not really solving any issues? Isn't that what we've already got with Tomlinson?

Not worth selling the farm for, especially if as pointed out above he does better leading into space rather than contested pack marking. 
Nobody who likes to lead to space is going to fit our game style which is based on ignoring (or not even making) leads into space* but rather bombing to a pack in the pocket. 

*at least drawing some of the defenders away from the pack leaving fewer to contend with in the pack contest. 

Edited May 31, 20231 yr by monoccular

  On 30/05/2023 at 05:20, Redleg said:

He could possibly help, but you are adding another not big key forward, to a side that needs them.

We really need a 25 year old Tom Lynch, more than anything. Then Roo and Fritta could compliment him.

Possibly our best hope would be Verrall in the next few years.

How about Nick Larkey? He's equal fourth on the goal kicking table (averaging 2.7) and is the youngest (24) and most accurate set shot (71.4%) in his peer group, is 198cm and is a pre-agent next year...plus the Roos are not sure who'll be coaching them which opens the window for us and Dees have the picks to do a deal.  Would love to see Larkey and JVR tear it up!!

  On 31/05/2023 at 22:29, Big Red Rooster said:

How about Nick Larkey? He's equal fourth on the goal kicking table (averaging 2.7) and is the youngest (24) and most accurate set shot (71.4%) in his peer group, is 198cm and is a pre-agent next year...plus the Roos are not sure who'll be coaching them which opens the window for us and Dees have the picks to do a deal.  Would love to see Larkey and JVR tear it up!!

He would be great, but just can’t see it happening.

  On 31/05/2023 at 22:29, Big Red Rooster said:

How about Nick Larkey? He's equal fourth on the goal kicking table (averaging 2.7) and is the youngest (24) and most accurate set shot (71.4%) in his peer group, is 198cm and is a pre-agent next year...plus the Roos are not sure who'll be coaching them which opens the window for us and Dees have the picks to do a deal.  Would love to see Larkey and JVR tear it up!!

north will, justifiably, want the farm

Nick Larkey would be a great get. Could we afford him and what picks would we be giving away? If we walked away from this years draft with Duursma and Larkey who’d be happy?

Jake Riccardi has shown some promise. He is one that could come cheap-ish. Good age and size. I haven’t seen much of him of late therefore I don’t have much of an informed idea. 

  On 31/05/2023 at 23:22, Demonsterative said:

Jake Riccardi has shown some promise. He is one that could come cheap-ish. Good age and size. I haven’t seen much of him of late therefore I don’t have much of an informed idea. 

Took a few decent marks last week and played his best game since bursting onto the scene. Still not convinced.

We need someone with both X factor and courage. Better than what we have with JvR, Petty, and Jefferson.

Naughton (despite his horrible kicking), Larkey or Todd Marshall could be worthwhile targets.

  On 01/06/2023 at 06:58, dee-tox said:

Took a few decent marks last week and played his best game since bursting onto the scene. Still not convinced.

We need someone with both X factor and courage. Better than what we have with JvR, Petty, and Jefferson.Naughton (despite his horrible kicking), Larkey or Todd Marshall could be worthwhile targets.

Im a fan of Larkey and Marshall, but are they gettable and at what price? 
 

I would not question JVR with courage tho. He eats courage for breakfast . 

Get Hogan back!