Let's try and pin point the actual issue.

[Redleg 40,776]

11 hours ago, Gunna’s said:

Can’t disagree with your points above. Multiple failures.  But you forgot to mention Selwyn Griffiths. 
I don’t think he’s the right guy.
Hard to get a read from ‘22 with the premiership hangover. But between ‘22 and the first 11 rounds of ‘23 we haven’t looked at our best.
Is it our culture or gameplan, but the main change from ‘21 when we looked unbeatable is Burgess to Griffiths. 
I’m sure it’s a multifaceted combination of issues but surely the soft cap wasn't reduced so that we have to put up with timid and lacklustre performances 

It’s not Griffiths, as we have had a good injury run and we have won most last quarters so far and are still running at the end of games.

It is skill, speed, game plan, attitude and ineffective clearances and  a non settled forward line.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Redleg

[layzie 33,724]

16 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Your not alone it thinking this. Given that Oliver wasn't playing,  it was a bit of a no brainer. JV had a very unusual one kick, one handball and no marks tally for the entire first half.

Goody is a premiership coach and maybe him being stuck in his ways served us well in 21. It didn't yesterday. 

No Clarry and 2 touches for Viney was game over as far as I was concerned. Their midfield was rinsing ours.

[leave it to deever 17,506]

1 minute ago, layzie said:

No Clarry and 2 touches for Viney was game over as far as I was concerned. Their midfield was rinsing ours.

Sadly for me, I thought that when their prime ruck went off the ground we would walk home against their 2nd in Jackson.

So much for "booing him."

[Wells 11 5,360]

6 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Yep. Now  that, I've accepted this, as painful as it is, it helps. Collingwood is the new 21 us.

I kinda got this feeling about we we sit, against the Suns game. I just hope that despite dropping games to lower sides on our home ground, we take a few scalps as well.

I think we might scrape into the top 4 on%. Notwithstanding the Pies, it is a tight competition.

Really lamenting the squandered opportunity of last years chance. It didn't phase me as much then, because I was still high on the flag fumes.

Maybe the players were as well. It happens. 

yep re squandered. It def hurts more doesn’t it when we can see a few teams that have genuinely passed us. Although, against that, you could say it wasn’t a lack of application in 22 but more like we pushed  too hard. Not resting injured players… pushing for perfection as admitted. We didn’t relax we just didn’t quite play the right hand. Honest mistake if you like. Also, even at peak, I wonder if we would have  gotten past geelong. 

Bearing Geelong in mind though, you never know if can’t somehow do a mini, top end rebuild and come bk in a year or two. We still have a great core of top end talent. 

[layzie 33,724]

2 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Sadly for me, I thought that when their prime ruck went off the ground we would walk home against their 2nd in Jackson.

So much for "booing him."

He really stepped up to the plate yesterday. Credit where it is due.

[leave it to deever 17,506]

1 minute ago, Wells 11 said:

yep re squandered. It def hurts more doesn’t it when we can see a few teams that have genuinely passed us. Although, against that, you could say it wasn’t a lack of application in 22 but more like we pushed  too hard. Not resting injured players… pushing for perfection as admitted. We didn’t relax we just didn’t quite play the right hand. Honest mistake if you like. Also, even at peak, I wonder if we would have  gotten past geelong. 

Bearing Geelong in mind though, you never know if can’t somehow do a mini, top end rebuild and come bk in a year or two. We still have a great core of top end talent. 

Our forward line really crumbled after Tmac was injured last year and has remained pretty much broken up to now.

A lot needs to align for a flag and clearly a lot more for subsequent ones. This is history unfolding before us. Not many clubs win back to back or the 2nd year after. It gives me new respect for teams like the lions winning 3 in a row. The comp was more uneven back then but it's an incredible ammount of team inertia and passion.

[leave it to deever 17,506]

9 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

yep re squandered. It def hurts more doesn’t it when we can see a few teams that have genuinely passed us. Although, against that, you could say it wasn’t a lack of application in 22 but more like we pushed  too hard. Not resting injured players… pushing for perfection as admitted. We didn’t relax we just didn’t quite play the right hand. Honest mistake if you like. Also, even at peak, I wonder if we would have  gotten past geelong. 

Bearing Geelong in mind though, you never know if can’t somehow do a mini, top end rebuild and come bk in a year or two. We still have a great core of top end talent. 

The Irony being that we were the only team likely to beat the cats given we were in their heads Rent free from 21. 

[BW511 2,622]

At the time of Jackson leaving, i thought he wasn’t a big loss. Very inconsistent and barely showed up last year knowing he was gone.

Watching yesterday’s game, his size and mobility is something we dearly lack.

It feels like the whole club is trying too hard at the moment - overthinking everything, overcoaching and overcompensating.

I’d love the message next week to be just release the shackles and go and play. We need a circuit breaker

[spirit of norm smith 16,176]

I watched the Full game yesterday v Freo. Lots of areas for improvement. 
 

1.  Goalkicking.  It’s absolutely the one area of most teams that is crucial to winning. Dees missed 7-8 shots from 30 metres out.   
 

2. Kicks to inside 50.  Bombs and kicks to packs of 5-6 players. Cox and Pearce were able to outmark or easily defend.  No leads or forward smarts from Tmcd or JVR.  Ultimately Mids need to lower their eyes.  Fritsch is the smart one who works to space.  Look for him more.  
 

3. overhandballing. Yes chain of 5-6 handballs usually leads to trouble and turnovers.  It looks predictable as players telegraph the next habdpass and it gets shut down. Turnover. 
 

4. Clearances and stoppages.  We have inside mid bulls but are now losing clearances weekly.  Huge area needing focus. 
 

5. Get Lever back as a 3rd interception defender.  We had May and Petty and Lever was able to defend and cover.  Dees walking into others plans to make him accountable.  With Petty out, Turner or Tomlinson needs to play.  
 

more to come … 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

The Petty forward experiment ruined the backline, the forward line, kept Brown out of the team (he was playing really well before being injured).

Joel Smith needs to come in as a forward, Tomlinson needs to play the Petty third tall role down back.

We need to be rotating role players more to reward Casey form and not let them get stale, we are literally making the same mistakes as 2022.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Clint Bizkit

[Ollie fan 3,349]

Once again, the doomsayers and anti-Goodwiners return. Sure, we have some problems. I agree we need a third tall defender, but the Petty experiment up forward had us as the highest scoring team in the league. Much as he is not in the top rank, it seems to me Tomlinson has to come in next week so that Lever can go back to his floating role. Pickett into the midfield simply didn’t work; the stats established that. If anything, our loss of clearance work is probably because we are mixing up our centre bounce combination very regularly. 

A couple of tweaks and I am sure this team can return to its glory. I do think Joel Smith in the forward line might be an idea as an experiment, just for a bit of a change. 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

20 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Our forward line really crumbled after Tmac was injured last year and has remained pretty much broken up to now.

A lot needs to align for a flag and clearly a lot more for subsequent ones. This is history unfolding before us. Not many clubs win back to back or the 2nd year after. It gives me new respect for teams like the lions winning 3 in a row. The comp was more uneven back then but it's an incredible ammount of team inertia and passion.

Forward line was good at the start of the year when Ben Brown was near the top of the Coleman before getting injured.

[adonski 11,616]

• Removal of a 3rd tall defender, practically reducing Lever's output to zero
• Kozzie Pickett dominates R1 playing higher up the ground, and now is getting no midfield minutes
• Unwillingness to play BBB after kicking 9 goals in his first three games prior to injury
• Persistence with highly limited role players 
• Reluctance/unwillingness to draft balanced or outside mids to compliment our current group, issue then magnified by lack of creativity with midfield rotations
• Trent Rivers attending a total of 0 centre bounce attendances over the past 4 weeks
• We have too many forwards that aren't actually forwards (ANB, Harmes, Sparrow)
• Using players like Jordon as sub doesn't make sense, either needs to be in the 22 or not in the side at all
• Reluctance to play Harmes in the one & only role where he's been a good player - a tagger

I'm sure there's a further thousand points I'll get to at some point

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

I actually don’t think our problem is as unfixable as some seem to think. We were on the right track early in the year and in the games we have lost we have totally reverted to type. We need to get back to making the ground bigger to stretch team’s defences. Predictably coming down the left wing with a big bomb allows teams to setup for the spill and crumb. Everyone knows we will do it, so they only need to defend half the ground.

 We have gone back to a down the line, handball heavy game which increases pressure on the ball carrier, which reduces disposal efficiency. Earlier in the year and preseason we were taking the 45 kick and opening up the ground. This created faster, more accurate ball movement which increases the likelihood of getting an effective entry to your forward 50.

 Yesterday, we had maybe 2 exits to the right hand wing, both resulted in deep forward 50 entries. Jesus, we have 2 200+cm guys on the ground and could have 3 if we added BBB, we can make our exit from D50 much less predictable and force teams to defend the whole ground. We also need to go back to taking the corridor or 45 degree kick to spread their defence more. The way we are playing right now only works if we are dominating clearance and for more than one reason, we are not.

[IRW 1,386]

Get Petty back to where he's best  .The backline is exposed without him

They are still the highest scoring forward line but its not because of Petty.

They can't play BBB and JVR in the same forward line unless they learn to kick 

it to Brown on a lead.

TMac taking  a back out of the play  is old news, hes finished...BBB,JVR with Gawn/Grundy  and Fritta floating around is a marking quadrella

Defensive pressure  and fall of the ball action from the rest would help as would Kossi choosing when to chase a tackle      ( thats when he might catch them,not just look quick)

Maybe Oliver isn't the reason Trac won't win a Brownlow; both champs but perhaps not as effective as the legend on here suggests

 

Goodwin might stop saying " we back our system" or we're looking at getting the balance right" as well.

Two seasons of nonsense pressers  is enough ...time to target winning from 6th

Edited May 28, 2023 by IRW

[Roost it far 8,104]

12 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

The lack of run from our backline is the most mystifyingly aspect of our side.

Lever used to be so good as a handballer who could go both sides and make quick decisions. May could link up.

And Bowey, Salem, Rivers can all run, are very good handballers and good kicks. Maybe the mids aren’t back their quick enough, maybe our wings are too wide looking for outside ball (and slow if it’s Hunter or Gus).

But there’s something really troubling about the way our backline has just lost all run over the last 2 years. 

We’ve lost our dare, we get pressured in our D50 and seem to fumble and mis kick. We no longer have Max waiting to gobble up the quick kick out. I’d love to see them run and move the ball with some dash and maybe that will return.

[Ollie fan 3,349]

1 hour ago, adonski said:

• Removal of a 3rd tall defender, practically reducing Lever's output to zero
• Kozzie Pickett dominates R1 playing higher up the ground, and now is getting no midfield minutes
• Unwillingness to play BBB after kicking 9 goals in his first three games prior to injury
• Persistence with highly limited role players 
• Reluctance/unwillingness to draft balanced or outside mids to compliment our current group, issue then magnified by lack of creativity with midfield rotations
• Trent Rivers attending a total of 0 centre bounce attendances over the past 4 weeks
• We have too many forwards that aren't actually forwards (ANB, Harmes, Sparrow)
• Using players like Jordon as sub doesn't make sense, either needs to be in the 22 or not in the side at all
• Reluctance to play Harmes in the one & only role where he's been a good player - a tagger

I'm sure there's a further thousand points I'll get to at some point

Unwillingness to play BBB/persistence with highly limited role players?

BBB is the most limited role player in our group. I don’t want to bag him; he was a key in 2021 and he is obviously a wonderful person. But as a player: yes, he kicked 4 goals against Brisbane but Andrew’s murdered him and was BOG, setting up attack after attack - because BBB is too slow and awkward as soon as he doesn’t mark it.

 

Lack of creativity in midfield rotations? We have been mixing it up time and again, to make sure Clarry and Tracc aren’t worn out by the end of the season.

 

Draft outside mids? Didn’t we recruit Hunter?

[adonski 11,616]

8 minutes ago, Ollie fan said:

Unwillingness to play BBB/persistence with highly limited role players?

BBB is the most limited role player in our group. I don’t want to bag him; he was a key in 2021 and he is obviously a wonderful person. But as a player: yes, he kicked 4 goals against Brisbane but Andrew’s murdered him and was BOG, setting up attack after attack - because BBB is too slow and awkward as soon as he doesn’t mark it.

 

Lack of creativity in midfield rotations? We have been mixing it up time and again, to make sure Clarry and Tracc aren’t worn out by the end of the season.

 

Draft outside mids? Didn’t we recruit Hunter?

Brown is our best key forward, deficiencies and all

Langdon & Hunter were both plucked from other clubs, it's concerning we've not been able to draft or develop our own capable outside runners

And yes, definite lack of creativity in the midfield. We've given up on Rivers & Pickett in there already it would seem.

[Gunna’s 2,102]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

It’s not Griffiths, as we have had a good injury run and we have won most last quarters so far and are still running at the end of games.

It is skill, speed, game plan, attitude and ineffective clearances and  a non settled forward line.

We haven’t been dominant in last quarters, yes we might have out scored some teams but we have also lost a lot third quarters (is it the 3/4 time oranges?), so we have better endurance than other teams. But is the endurance at the cost of explosiveness, run and carry and driving forward footy that saw us win a premiership - given the personnel still on the list I know the players are capable of running hard at the opposition but this hasn’t happened for 12 months. 
And secondly where is the spread to create the quick footy, everyone is flat footed and pointing (fitness or gameplan?).  
Also our defensive zone was elite in 2021, teams couldn’t get past half way.  It looks like Swiss cheese now, so many easy kicks into space that opens us up and creates an opposition f50 entry. 
I do agree with you and others though that there are multiple reasons why we aren’t playing to our potential, I just think fitness and conditioning is a contributing factor that can’t be discounted. 

[Fritta and Turner 4,286]

1 hour ago, adonski said:

I'm sure there's a further thousand points I'll get to at some point

Must you? I am depressed enough as it is.....

[Orion 332]

The solution is staring us in the face.  Take the game on, be more daring, move the ball quickly and give the forwards a chance. Conservative football isn't working in 2023.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Orion

[spirit of norm smith 16,176]

2 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

I watched the Full game yesterday v Freo. Lots of areas for improvement. 
 

1.  Goalkicking.  It’s absolutely the one area of most teams that is crucial to winning. Dees missed 7-8 shots from 30 metres out.   
 

2. Kicks to inside 50.  Bombs and kicks to packs of 5-6 players. Cox and Pearce were able to outmark or easily defend.  No leads or forward smarts from Tmcd or JVR.  Ultimately Mids need to lower their eyes.  Fritsch is the smart one who works to space.  Look for him more.  
 

3. overhandballing. Yes chain of 5-6 handballs usually leads to trouble and turnovers.  It looks predictable as players telegraph the next habdpass and it gets shut down. Turnover. 
 

4. Clearances and stoppages.  We have inside mid bulls but are now losing clearances weekly.  Huge area needing focus. 
 

5. Get Lever back as a 3rd interception defender.  We had May and Petty and Lever was able to defend and cover.  Dees walking into others plans to make him accountable.  With Petty out, Turner or Tomlinson needs to play.  
 

more to come … 

6.  Skilled midfielders.  There’s a lack of skill and precise ball skills within our midfield core. We have inside Mids and depth through Casey. But outside runners are limited.  Disposal effectiveness built on small handballing rather than effective kicks. Overall the ineffective (poor) ball use around the ground, going inside 50 or kicking for goal was a killer v Freo.  Memo to JT. Recruit pacy Mids with skill (starting with Wilson and Simpson). 
 

7. We lack the courage to take the corridor option. Slow and wide and wide and slow.  Go to the wing boundary line.  Ffs.  The defence moves across and restricts the next kick. Dees need to back themselves and move it quickly.  Spread the defence with 30 metre kicks. Watching the young Hawks last 10 minutes yesterday was a joy to taking the game on.  
 

8.  Tackling to lock in the footy.  We allow players to get the footy away.  I thought in 2021 our tackling was elite and a key to our success. I looks like it’s dropped off and exposing ourselves to run and exposing our defence. 

[titan_uranus 24,963]

1 hour ago, adonski said:

• Removal of a 3rd tall defender, practically reducing Lever's output to zero
• Kozzie Pickett dominates R1 playing higher up the ground, and now is getting no midfield minutes
• Unwillingness to play BBB after kicking 9 goals in his first three games prior to injury
• Persistence with highly limited role players 
• Reluctance/unwillingness to draft balanced or outside mids to compliment our current group, issue then magnified by lack of creativity with midfield rotations
• Trent Rivers attending a total of 0 centre bounce attendances over the past 4 weeks
• We have too many forwards that aren't actually forwards (ANB, Harmes, Sparrow)
• Using players like Jordon as sub doesn't make sense, either needs to be in the 22 or not in the side at all
• Reluctance to play Harmes in the one & only role where he's been a good player - a tagger

I'm sure there's a further thousand points I'll get to at some point

I agree with a number of these (indeed, I think the title of the thread is misguided - there is no one issue, there almost never is, it’s usually a combination of things). 

I didn’t like the Petty forward move to begin with. He’s probably a better forward than I had expected but the team net loses because it’s thrown our backline structure out. I cannot accept that the FD haven’t seen Lever go from AA form to, well, not. If they have been persisting, hoping that Hibberd could fill the void, I think that it’s time to end the persistence. 

I also agree re Rivers. I see him as being ready to move into the midfield. It would help solve two problems - insufficient midfield depth and too many small defenders. 

[beelzebub 23,311]

14 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

....

Feel like even Goody is not as innovative as he once was. There seems to be zero plan B when teams get a run on, there's no willing to try and be creative with our players whether that's trying something with positional changes etc.

...

Why has Goody gone away from this?

Daz, Not to be dismissive of that fine post.... but to go to the heart of the matter....the question posed....  i.e   what is the actual fundamental cause....  well look no further (imho) than those 2 quoted sections above.

To me, everything emanates from this ^^^

Why indeed 🤷🤷🤷🥴

Cheers

Go Dees

[58er 6,336]

14 hours ago, Gorgoroth said:

JVR looked good once the long noms stopped and we hit him up.

Nibbler played the defensive role up forward and wasn’t bad. 
Sparrow was decent but took a head knock and missed a big chunk of the game.

 

Agree on coaches need to be refreshed. Viney was sat on again and not seen in the first half.

Gawn looks unfit and more interested in playing for frees than asserting himself. Grundy was decent today. 
 

Why Kozzie isn’t playing more through the midfield has me scratching my head. 
 

Are we overrated. Facts show yes.

We once again were flat, had no spark, players weren’t getting to each other like we did. 
Petty when fit must play down back and right now I’d run with JVR and Fritta as the two forwards then Alice through a resting ruck. We are too tall.

Goodwins strength of backing his players and the system is also his biggest weakness. 

Who is Alice or is it Slice?