Let's try and pin point the actual issue.

[dazzledavey36 49,914]

I didn't watch the game today so I'm not going to to really talk in depth about it from an analysis perspective. 

What's the go? Why with the list that we have, why are putting in performances like this. Are we simply overrated? Because I'm starting to believe so and have felt this since after the Essendon game.

For me here are some factors that we haven't been able to fix since last year.

Selections

Goody showing once again how incredible stale we are in this department. Continuing to gift games to the likes of McDonald, ANB, Sparrow, who add nothing to the team. Salem completely bypassing the VFL and not being made to earn his spot. We have guys like Laurie, Schache, Howes, Dunstan, Turner who are putting in consistent good form at VFL and yet Goody is still way too stubborn to reward their form. Sticking with the same usuals who have been ordinary since last year.  Here i was thinking it was all going to change this year and nope. 

McVee and JVF have looked tired for the past few weeks and yet they look vulnerable out there. 

Forward Line

What on earth is going on with this. We've had all summer to find what out best forward set up was going to be and it's an absolute shambles as we speak. How the coaching staff can sit there and think that Tom McDonald is actually worth investing time into is beyond me. Honestly, the sunken titanic moves better then Tmac.

Guys like Schache and Joel Smith are actually performing at VFL level and would add far better mobility and ground level ability. Give them both a good 4 week stretch of games and let them settle into the team.

We have 4 smalls in there who are all out of form. I'm so perplexed what ANB adds to our teams. You put the smallest amount of pressure on him and he just turns to water and fumbles like crazy.

Even our forward 50 entries is a shambles. We're purely focus on just bombing in there and hoping for the best. We knew this was a massive defiencie last year but again we've done nothing to rectify this. The only forward worth holding his head up is Bayley Fritsch. The rest have been incredibly disappointing. 

Midfield and Gawn/Grundy combo

Death, Taxes and another game beaten in the clearences. I think people actually overrate our midfield. It's Gawn, Petracca, Oliver then daylight. I'm only going off stats, but It looks like no one stood up and in the absence of Oliver. Once again it's disappointing. Our depth is very thin as well, the likes of Jordon, Sparrow, Harmes are genuine battlers who won't really improve us to the next level.

Adding genuine midfield talent in the off season is the biggest need right now. Utilise the draft and trade period as best as we can.

The Grundy and Gawn combo? I haven't seen any evidence to suggest it's working unfortunately. I was hesitant with the Grundy trade and still am. Both of them just look cooked. I was expecting the Grundy of old this year but just haven't seen it.

Even with these two in the side it's actually bizarre how bad we are around stoppages and clearences.

Coaching and Development 

We've had the same coaching staff since the end of 2020. There's been no new coaching assistant that's come in and added a fresh new voice for over 3 years now.

Are the players simply getting stale with our current coaching set up? Do we need a fresh new voice at the end of the year? When Yze and Choco came on board you could tell they looked really rejuvenated and energised in 2021. Since then our game plan and method just looks stale and bland.

Feel like even Goody is not as innovative as he once was. There seems to be zero plan B when teams get a run on, there's no willing to try and be creative with our players whether that's trying something with positional changes etc.

Speaking of positional changes, all summer we heard about the Pickett midfield move. After his round 1 performance I thought this was finally the move that would add a completely new dynamic to a midfield set up. Now it's completely non existent... was he used in there today?? Why has Goody gone away from this?

The other thing also is why have we gone away from our traditional 3 tall defence? Lever is CLEARLY struggling with being the 2nd defender which then has a domino effect on Steven May's form.

We built our premiership defence purely on having the 3 tall defenders which means Lever plays his preferred role as a sweeping 3rd tall who is able to cut up and intercept.  We have seen his form dropped significantly since Petty went forward.

It's time to start we start putting games into Daniel Turner if Petty is the preferred forward moving forward. He's got the talent and ability just needs experience now. Hibberd or McVee can make way.

General Summary 

Imo these are some of the contributing factors of our poor form. I think there is more to add but right now we're stuck in a rut and some of players are bereft of confidence. Am I confident we can turn it around. Yes and no, we play the poor teams again layer this and I feel all this will do is put a band aid over the cracks. 

I've seen nothing to suggest that we've made any gradual improvement since last year and I don't know I have thr faith that he can turn it around this year.

It'll take a monumental shift in attitude change from the players and coaching staff.

[Gawndy the Great 8,071]

The issue is game plan. Everything is secondary or directly traceable back to it. 
 

specifics -

1. structure and shape. Outnumbered at contests, doesn’t allow us to transition the ball fluently when we do win it. Instead we dump kick it to another contest and ultimately fail. There is no overlap run and wingers are pushed right to the outer.

2. stoppages. Getting murdered with scores from forward half stoppages. Half the team are defending space and are flat footed when they should be pressing up on an opponent.

3. Skills. Kicking efficiency, tackling forward tackles, ground balls.

These are the 3 things i would work on first to try and nullify the opponent from scoring. We are very leaky this year. Get this right then you can work on a whole host of forward half issues.

 

 

[Gunna’s 1,997]

Can’t disagree with your points above. Multiple failures.  But you forgot to mention Selwyn Griffiths. 
I don’t think he’s the right guy.
Hard to get a read from ‘22 with the premiership hangover. But between ‘22 and the first 11 rounds of ‘23 we haven’t looked at our best.
Is it our culture or gameplan, but the main change from ‘21 when we looked unbeatable is Burgess to Griffiths. 
I’m sure it’s a multifaceted combination of issues but surely the soft cap wasn't reduced so that we have to put up with timid and lacklustre performances 

[DeeSpencer 23,698]

10 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Goody showing once again how incredible stale we are in this department. Continuing to gift games to the likes of McDonald, ANB, Sparrow, who add nothing to the team. Salem completely bypassing the VFL and not being made to earn his spot. We have guys like Laurie, Schache, Howes, Dunstan, Turner who are putting in consistent good form at VFL and yet Goody is still way too stubborn to reward their form.

Nibbler was good. Sparrow made a huge difference to our midfield defensive run and had great aerial efforts. McDonald actually competed well for a fair bit and got stuck deep forward dragging a key Freo tall out of play at times. 

I’m not at all convinced Schache would’ve been better than Tom, it’s Schache! Dunstan’s injured. Laurie isn’t consistent at VFL, how does that deserve a promotion. Howes isn’t ready, he should be, but he’s not, really inconsistent contests and drifts though games. Turner, maybe, but Hibbo was fantastic today. Disco’s close but he’s hardly smashed the door down.

The only selection issue today was Harmes for JJ and JJ hardly impressed when subbed on. I suspect one was going to be sub no matter.

There’s no evidence JVR is significantly tiring, he covered plenty of ground today. Same goes for McVee who was very solid defensively and didn’t get turned around by Freddy at any stage. 

[At the break of Gawn 3,894]

It’s not just one issue. There are many. 

Stoppage game needs an overhaul.

Defensive structure needs an overhaul (need 3 talls).

We can’t carry Chandler, Pickett and Spargo in the one side.

We’re not getting enough goals from our talls. JvR needs a spell IMO.

There are too many “premiership heroes” who are running on reputation. AnB, Harmes, Spargo, Langdon. Everyone talks about pressure for spots and BB, Tmac’s name is mentioned but what about the pressure on those aforementioned. Bevo has his critics but what I love about him is that he’s not afraid to drop a player out of form and neither should Goody.

[dazzledavey36 49,914]

8 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Nibbler was good. Sparrow made a huge difference to our midfield defensive run and had great aerial efforts. McDonald actually competed well for a fair bit and got stuck deep forward dragging a key Freo tall out of play at times. 

I’m not at all convinced Schache would’ve been better than Tom, it’s Schache! Dunstan’s injured. Laurie isn’t consistent at VFL, how does that deserve a promotion. Howes isn’t ready, he should be, but he’s not, really inconsistent contests and drifts though games. Turner, maybe, but Hibbo was fantastic today. Disco’s close but he’s hardly smashed the door down.

The only selection issue today was Harmes for JJ and JJ hardly impressed when subbed on. I suspect one was going to be sub no matter.

There’s no evidence JVR is significantly tiring, he covered plenty of ground today. Same goes for McVee who was very solid defensively and didn’t get turned around by Freddy at any stage. 

I'm not talking about today.

They're so far in between the best and worse. Tmac is the same. All 3 are honest battlers who don't improve us.

Laurie not consistent?

Which part of the below numbers at VFL is not consistent in your eyes?

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by dazzledavey36

[DeeSpencer 23,698]

19 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Feel like even Goody is not as innovative as he once was. There seems to be zero plan B when teams get a run on, there's no willing to try and be creative with our players whether that's trying something with positional changes etc.

Speaking of positional changes, all summer we heard about the Pickett midfield move. After his round 1 performance I thought this was finally the move that would add a completely new dynamic to a midfield set up. Now it's completely non existent... was he used in there today?? Why has Goody gone away from this?

The other thing also is why have we gone away from our traditional 3 tall defence? Lever is CLEARLY struggling with being the 2nd defender which then has a domino effect on Steven May's form.

We built our premiership defence purely on having the 3 tall defenders which means Lever plays his preferred role as a sweeping 3rd tall who is able to cut up and intercept.  We have seen his form dropped significantly since Petty went forward.

This I agree with a little more.

Would love to see more shuffling of magnets.

Pickett should always get a little midfield time but we desperately need his pace and pressure forward. So short stints. 

Lever was abused by smaller quick defenders turning him around last year. He also provides no skills and no run. So if he gets intercept marks he’s slow unlike Moore or Sicily or Stewart.

Goodwin can’t change to be more like Collingwood and have Lever as a witches hat playing by himself. He’s still getting intercept chances whilst taking a man. I don’t believe he’s struggling all that much either, he’s struggling (like May) when the ball is on the deck which comes down to poor form and poor training for the backs on how to execute under pressure. It’s a huge team issue. 

You know who’s cool under pressure - Judd McVee.

Gus also plays as an interceptor when back. We can’t have Gus and Lever both as interceptors when Gus is back. Today Gus wasn’t back so that’s different. But Hibbo was great as a tall back.

[layzie 30,493]

I felt like today went against everything we had trained for in pre season and reverted back to everything that got us to here but won't get us to there.

The quick ball movement and trying to get through the middle was gone and we reverted to kicking sideways and trying to play down the wings. We sent long balls onto T-mac's head and it was out of there pretty quickly.

When they kick a long ball to a pack on the wing or the middle you'd better hope it doesn't get out to the back because it's that point we are on the back foot defending in transition and we are usually screwed. 

We're slower to react, ground balls are pounced on much faster from the opposition, not sure if this is coaching, hunger or execution but it's there. How many times can we use the line "We weren't that bad with our output, the other team just turned up and outworked our butts off!"

Some of the skill errors today by hand and foot were embarrassing.

I've been saying for weeks that we slip way too many tackles in the middle of the park and this was on show today. I don't want to be shown the tackle stat that we won, in critical areas opposition players are bouncing their way off our tackles far too often.

The problems are not easily fixable and I haven't mentioned the forward line because I also feel if we tidied this other stuff up the Forward setup wouldn't be as much of an issue.

 

[Jaded No More 60,464]

Our senior players have been mostly very disappointing this season. Trac and Clarry aside, we’ve not had consistently good output from anyone else. 

I have no issues with McVee or JVR running out of puff. But players like Langdon, Lever, May, ANB, Gawn, Gus, Fritsch and Viney  (not to mention the two talls in Tmac and BB) have all been wavering between good and horrible each week.
When we are getting minimal output from these key players who made us a great team in 2021, it’s no wonder we are struggling.

I don’t know if they are just lacking motivation/hunger, if they’re injured, or if they’re simply in decline, but it puts too much pressure on the lesser lights to perform. Unfortunately, like most sides, if your best players aren’t performing, your bottom 8 are unlikely to win you many games. 
Combine that with a game plan that is predicable, and we have simply become easier to play against. 

[DeeSpencer 23,698]

2 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I'm not talking about today.

They're so far in between the best and worse. Tmac is the same. All 3 are honest battlers who don't improve us.

Laurie not consistent?

Which part of the below numbers at VFL is not consistent in your eyes?

The 8 touch game and the 9 touch game today and some of his 1 tackle efforts. 

ANB plays the toughest position on the ground and does his job week to week. His output with the pill depends on how he has it delivered and who he can pass to. When both of those things line up he excels. 

Sparrow’s crazily undervalued by Melbourne supporters who just look at disposal numbers. He’s a role player but also a very good one. 

[Gorgoroth 12,447]

JVR looked good once the long noms stopped and we hit him up.

Nibbler played the defensive role up forward and wasn’t bad. 
Sparrow was decent but took a head knock and missed a big chunk of the game.

 

Agree on coaches need to be refreshed. Viney was sat on again and not seen in the first half.

Gawn looks unfit and more interested in playing for frees than asserting himself. Grundy was decent today. 
 

Why Kozzie isn’t playing more through the midfield has me scratching my head. 
 

Are we overrated. Facts show yes.

We once again were flat, had no spark, players weren’t getting to each other like we did. 
Petty when fit must play down back and right now I’d run with JVR and Fritta as the two forwards then Alice through a resting ruck. We are too tall.

Goodwins strength of backing his players and the system is also his biggest weakness. 

[Roost it far 6,500]

We don’t take the game on. We should be moving it in quickly and if no one’s free we should be kicking it to a contest and backing our team mates to win or halve said contest.

Gawn being cooked has left us without a key pillar of our dominance. Grundy has been good but not sure he’s the answer.

 

[dazzledavey36 49,914]

2 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Our senior players have been mostly very disappointing this season. Trac and Clarry aside, we’ve not had consistently good output from anyone else. 

I have no issues with McVee or JVR running out of puff. But players like Langdon, Lever, May, ANB, Gawn, Gus, Fritsch and Viney  (not to mention the two talls in Tmac and BB) have all been wavering between good and horrible each week.
When we are getting minimal output from these key players who made us a great team in 2021, it’s no wonder we are struggling.

I don’t know if they are just lacking motivation/hunger, if they’re injured, or if they’re simply in decline, but it puts too much pressure on the lesser lights to perform. Unfortunately, like most sides, if your best players aren’t performing, your bottom 8 are unlikely to win you many games. 
Combine that with a game plan that is predicable, and we have simply become easier to play against. 

Definitely doesn't get spoken enough.

Langdon especially, decline in form at a rapid rate is concerning. 

[The heart beats true 16,755]

I mean, maybe watch the game and then have a rant. Context is everything.

[bing181 8,363]

Whatever the issues are, the idea that the solutions are running round in the VFL is delusional.

For mine though, really missing:

- key forward. Has been Tom Mac and BB, but both are pretty horribly out of form/past it, which leaves JVR (tries hard but pushed aside too easily), Schache (there's a reason he's onto his 3rd club) or I don't know who (Smith?).

- second KPD. Our fearless backline was built around May, Petty and Lever ... in that order. Taking Petty out means that Lever is forced to play to his weaknesses (1 on 1) while at the same time we get no benefit from his strengths (intercepts) which is a double whammy.

[DeeSpencer 23,698]

Our biggest issues are run, skills, speed and selfishness.

Our defenders do no run the ball out nor attempt to hit corridor kicks. Langdon is always ready and waiting, the ball doesn’t get to him. Our mids don’t work in cohesion to receive uncontested kicks, leading in and out of zone gaps.

All over the ground we are slow in transition and too defensive. Our wings drop back too far and leave their man for 45 switches. May goal keeps. The rucks drop deep out of every forward. stoppage and we never lock the ball in.

Particularly up forward we have big issues with selfishness in terms of not blocking, not staying down, not passing to open team mates and in the case of Fritsch not chasing. We don’t smother.

And of course our forwards don’t lead because our mids don’t kick to leads. A vicious circle.

These aren’t coaching or personnel problems that can be solved over night and not with VFL players coming in. They are problems that have come from emphasising a way of playing that won a flag in 2021 and not adapting the list.

Petty, Oliver and better goal kicking and I suspect we win with todays effort pretty comfortably.

But we aren’t some super team that can just romp to victory. We have a lot of flawed players, including our stars. 

 

[Redlagged 806]

14 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Definitely doesn't get spoken enough.

Langdon especially, decline in form at a rapid rate is concerning. 

True. And Lever...poor.

[monoccular 16,737]

Is there any reason the tall forwards rarely spread instead of both / all contesting the same high incoming kick?  At least it would spread the defenders if one lead and one stayed home or lead in a different direction.   Seems like a simple change to try though I am of course just a supporter and know nothing. 

[dees189227 11,384]

It's fair to say gawn is no longer the best ruckman in the game. He has carried this team and done it while getting hit from pillar to post. But his marking has dropped off, not even sure when he last had a shot for a goal, his ruckwork isn't flush and he can't tackle to save himself. I know he had that knee injury but gee he's just not the same 

[ANG13 1,673]

I agree with a lot of your points here and right now it’s hard to pin point the main reason because we have a few issues. I know your not a Tom Sparrow fan and that’s fine but he was one of only a few today that were any good. 

For me our biggest issue is mindset, we simply aren’t working hard enough for long enough and I think our leaders have been poor particularly the last two weeks. Again people we smack me for bringing up Collingwood but the buy in they have at the moment is exactly like us in 21. Yes they will lose games like we did but I feel you can trust them unlike us at the moment. 
 

I personally don’t have an issue with Petty playing as a forward but I don’t like Lever playing as an actual key position back, it’s just not his go and throws our backline out of balance. 

I was not a fan of bringing Grundy into the team, not because he’s not a good player because he is. But again I feel our team balance is out, with Grundy, Gawn, Mc Donald or Brown all playing if where not dominating clearances or marking the ball good teams will chop us up on rebounds. Yes we needed another ruck option but would have preferred using the Grundy money on a key position player. 
 

Our clearance work is also a massive issue particularly when your playing two big ruckman. It feels like where not just losing them but letting far to many centre clearances out without even touching the ball or the opposition player putting added pressure on the backline. 
 

 

 

[monoccular 16,737]

3 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Our biggest issues are run, skills, speed and selfishness.

Our defenders do no run the ball out nor attempt to hit corridor kicks. Langdon is always ready and waiting, the ball doesn’t get to him. Our mids don’t work in cohesion to receive uncontested kicks, leading in and out of zone gaps.

All over the ground we are slow in transition and too defensive. Our wings drop back too far and leave their man for 45 switches. May goal keeps. The rucks drop deep out of every forward. stoppage and we never lock the ball in.

Particularly up forward we have big issues with selfishness in terms of not blocking, not staying down, not passing to open team mates and in the case of Fritsch not chasing. We don’t smother.

And of course our forwards don’t lead because our mids don’t kick to leads. A vicious circle.

These aren’t coaching or personnel problems that can be solved over night and not with VFL players coming in. They are problems that have come from emphasising a way of playing that won a flag in 2021 and not adapting the list.

Petty, Oliver and better goal kicking and I suspect we win with todays effort pretty comfortably.

But we aren’t some super team that can just romp to victory. We have a lot of flawed players, including our stars. 

 

“..And of course our forwards don’t lead because our mids don’t kick to leads. A vicious circle. …”

Seems to me that this is a huge part of our current decline.  

[layzie 30,493]

The two tall backline is really not working. If we were much better at ground level it would be a risk worth taking but we're giving up a bit there.

Having said that, far from the worst aspect of our game today.

[DeeSpencer 23,698]

19 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

We don’t take the game on. We should be moving it in quickly and if no one’s free we should be kicking it to a contest and backing our team mates to win or halve said contest.

Gawn being cooked has left us without a key pillar of our dominance. Grundy has been good but not sure he’s the answer.

 

The lack of run from our backline is the most mystifyingly aspect of our side.

Lever used to be so good as a handballer who could go both sides and make quick decisions. May could link up.

And Bowey, Salem, Rivers can all run, are very good handballers and good kicks. Maybe the mids aren’t back their quick enough, maybe our wings are too wide looking for outside ball (and slow if it’s Hunter or Gus).

But there’s something really troubling about the way our backline has just lost all run over the last 2 years. 

[Pulp Fritschon 647]

Love this thread - DD starts off by stating they didn’t watch the game today and then goes on to write a thesis on what is not working. I love Demonland. 

[dee-tox 4,831]

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Nibbler was good. 

No he wasn't. His fumbling and poor disposal (44 percent) kill us every time. Oh but he lays tackles. Yes, but you need much more from your midfield rotations. A chain is only as good as its weakest link. And that's him.

Edited May 27, 2023 by dee-tox