Jump to content


Recommended Posts

Posted
10 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Given the panel was there to advise the AFL and because the panel investigation did not conclude in its process, but was agreed by the complainants to end the process, then that is for Gil to announce. 

The core line that Gil said that jumped out at me was ‘No adverse findings have been made’

His announcement would have been combed over by lawyers so the specific language that ‘no adverse findings have been made’ suggests that the investigation is halted before it could complete its work (from all the reasons you mentioned).

He didn’t say ‘no adverse findings have been established’ or ‘there are no adverse findings at the conclusion of the investigation’.

Instead the statement is: the panel is not stating any adverse findings. 

So essentially we are at the exact same place we were last year when the panel was announced that nothing has been proved or disproved. 

You cant find what essentially isnt there.

If the accusers weren't prepared to go on record,  test their case in court,  then there IS nothing.

People can hypothesise to their hearts desire .

For something adverse to have been found, something would at least have to been  substantiated. Accusations alone are not substantive.

  • Like 2

Posted
6 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

You cant find what essentially isnt there.

If the accusers weren't prepared to go on record,  test their case in court,  then there IS nothing.

People can hypothesise to their hearts desire .

For something adverse to have been found, something would at least have to been  substantiated. Accusations alone are not substantive.

They only weren’t prepared to go on THIS record - a record they perceived to be biased. They wanted to go to the Arbitration in Sport, and it looks like they want to go to the Human Rights Commission.

They perceive the AFL process to be flawed. The AFL is the same people who run the Tribunal. It’s fair to say that’s not a legal process most agree with.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1

Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

You cant find what essentially isnt there.

If the accusers weren't prepared to go on record,  test their case in court,  then there IS nothing.

People can hypothesise to their hearts desire .

For something adverse to have been found, something would at least have to been  substantiated. Accusations alone are not substantive.

You judge the issue  noting the first line without any inside information I assume.   Your statement can't hold either.  None of us know if it isn't "..essentially there..." do we.

A court can choose to believe one side over another in a ' he said, she said'. The Inquiry heard the complainants, but not the Hawks heirachy at the time, and Gil has decided to close it down using common weezel words. Of course there's now nothing to see.

Cyril voted with his feet and walked away. Why on earth would he trust the court system or the social commentary he and his partner would endure.

Clarko and Fagan have the benefit of being on the 'inside' and will move on. Robbo interestingly last night did not accept the issue is dealt with. He gets it I suspect.

Gil's never recovered from thr Adam Goodes episode IMO in this space.

Edited by Demon17
spelling mistakes
Posted
51 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

You cant find what essentially isnt there.

If the accusers weren't prepared to go on record,  test their case in court,  then there IS nothing.

People can hypothesise to their hearts desire .

For something adverse to have been found, something would at least have to been  substantiated. Accusations alone are not substantive.

Yes you agree with me then. The process has been abandoned before it's completion and therefore the statement is one that is implicitly saying there is nothing provable nor is there anything exculpatory for the panel to express.

Hence why I said, nothing is proven or disproven and we are at the exact same stage last year when the panel was created in the first place.

Some people are misunderstanding this situation to mean 'the allegations are not true', which, isn't the case. 

(For what it's worth, there are high profile cases where accusations are rightly treated as substantive. I'm NOT saying that applies in this case, but that sentiment is not a consistent truism. Again, not saying that applies here.)

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Yes you agree with me then. The process has been abandoned before it's completion and therefore the statement is one that is implicitly saying there is nothing provable nor is there anything exculpatory for the panel to express.

Hence why I said, nothing is proven or disproven and we are at the exact same stage last year when the panel was created in the first place.

Some people are misunderstanding this situation to mean 'the allegations are not true', which, isn't the case. 

(For what it's worth, there are high profile cases where accusations are rightly treated as substantive. I'm NOT saying that applies in this case, but that sentiment is not a consistent truism. Again, not saying that applies here.)

Yes... i think many might be overlaying another extrapolation which cant be done.

Edit... funny how much of anything is read but invariably people will see what theyre looking to see or not.

 

Edited by beelzebub
Context

Posted
10 minutes ago, BoBo said:


Hence why I said, nothing is proven or disproven and we are at the exact same stage last year when the panel was created in the first place.

 

correct

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Hence why I said, nothing is proven or disproven and we are at the exact same stage last year when the panel was created in the first place.

If only that was the general sentiment on here 9 months ago.

It wasn't.

Edited by Gator
  • Like 2
Posted
10 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Sadly whenever the word "racism" is involved then fairness & common sense go out the window & the lynch mob turns up and there are many here on Demonland always ready with pitchforks & torches.

couldn't agree more. and people like Whately ready to burn the accused at stake. Based on zero evidence put before them. Absolutly disgraceful. 

  • Like 2

Posted
19 minutes ago, Gator said:

If only that was the general sentiment on here 9 months ago.

It wasn't.

General no...   certainly  select.

 

  • Like 1
Posted
38 minutes ago, Gator said:

If only that was the general sentiment on here 9 months ago.

It wasn't.

Yeah but this isn't a rule that people follow consistently. Literally NOBODY actually holds the standard of 'accusations are only accusations' in all situations. People will sway one way or the other given the information they have available to them at the time. 

To hold this as a standard across all situations will take you into places you don't want to go.

Posted (edited)

I have read @BoBo  's take above, and agree with his emphasis on the importance of finding 1. I have quoted it below

  1. "No adverse findings have been made in the Independent Investigation against any of the individuals against whom allegations have been made (“Individual Respondents”)."

However, I would like a lawyerly interpretation of just what this statement means in relation to, particularly, Clarkson and Fagan. Does " No adverse findings" mean that there is no evidence of wrongdoing? Is it an exoneration? 

Or is it to be interpreted as BoBo suggests, that we really aren't  any wiser so let's just ..... err move on ?

Over to our in house KC - calling @Redleg.

 

Edited by Bitter but optimistic
typo
  • Like 1
Posted
18 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I have read @BoBo  's take above, and agree with his emphasis on the importance of finding 1. I have quoted it below

  1. "No adverse findings have been made in the Independent Investigation against any of the individuals against whom allegations have been made (“Individual Respondents”)."

However, I would like a lawyerly interpretation of just what this statement means in relation to, particularly, Clarkson and Fagan. Does " No adverse findings" mean that there is no evidence of wrongdoing? Is it an exoneration? 

Or is it to be interpreted as BoBo suggests, that we really aren't we really any wiser so let's just ..... err move on ?

Over to our in house KC - calling @Redleg.

 

The strict answer must be we're no further advanced.

There have been accusations.  They havent been properly tested. There being an impasse to proprietary procedures. 

Kinda he said ...he said.. they said.. others said nothing..   yada yada yada nada nada nada.

Many other things could be said...  i won't 

 

  • Thanks 1
Posted

I would imagine there could be a case/precedent for the Human Rights commission if they so desire to take this further to certain Courts within or outside Australia 

Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I have read @BoBo  's take above, and agree with his emphasis on the importance of finding 1. I have quoted it below

  1. "No adverse findings have been made in the Independent Investigation against any of the individuals against whom allegations have been made (“Individual Respondents”)."

However, I would like a lawyerly interpretation of just what this statement means in relation to, particularly, Clarkson and Fagan. Does " No adverse findings" mean that there is no evidence of wrongdoing? Is it an exoneration? 

Or is it to be interpreted as BoBo suggests, that we really aren't  any wiser so let's just ..... err move on ?

Over to our in house KC - calling @Redleg.

 

well uncle. they were crafty words emanating from gill the teflon dill .... need i say anymore?

he could have easily said no adverse or non-adverse findings were made

Edited by daisycutter
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I have read @BoBo  's take above, and agree with his emphasis on the importance of finding 1. I have quoted it below

  1. "No adverse findings have been made in the Independent Investigation against any of the individuals against whom allegations have been made (“Individual Respondents”)."

However, I would like a lawyerly interpretation of just what this statement means in relation to, particularly, Clarkson and Fagan. Does " No adverse findings" mean that there is no evidence of wrongdoing? Is it an exoneration? 

Or is it to be interpreted as BoBo suggests, that we really aren't  any wiser so let's just ..... err move on ?

Over to our in house KC - calling @Redleg.

 

I don’t think it is in any way an exoneration.

It is just simply that no adverse findings are made, because only one side has presented any form of statement and the party paying the bills for the panel have forced this outcome.

No allegations have been properly tested and the Investigation has been stopped and brought to a crashing end, as another “deal” by the AFL.

Edited by Redleg
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Posted
8 hours ago, old55 said:

You critiqued the AFL performance and I asked you what they could have done differently and you replied with some vague undefined "action". OK I accept that you don't know what they could have done differently

 

If I may have a attempt Old55, the AFL should have wrapped this up more rapidly.

First up, their investigations officer should have interviewed all parties individually asap with or without their lawyer as they choose.

When it came apparent that their stories were incompatible and one side didn't want to meet the other side, the AFL should quickly have said that the basic facts could not be agreed and no further action was possible. 

The appointment of a panel of lawyers had no prospect of success. Gill's statement that "this is what they asked for" ducks responsibility. 

So no further action unless someone sues.  Then the jury will be able to look into their faces and work out who was gutted and who is defensive/ashamed.  I suspect that there won't be cases.  The interview with the  former Hawthorn football club welfare manager Jason Burt suggests that they should keep their heads down.

So Gill that is another big fail after Lamumba, Goodes, Rioli(?), etc.  The system to support indigenous and/or immature and/or isolated players is broken and you do not seem to care.  Sling me or many others some of your salary and we would tell you how to fix it.

  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, BoBo said:

Yeah but this isn't a rule that people follow consistently. Literally NOBODY actually holds the standard of 'accusations are only accusations' in all situations. People will sway one way or the other given the information they have available to them at the time. 

To hold this as a standard across all situations will take you into places you don't want to go.

Balanced observers of this sorry tale wanted the accusations tested before making judgment.

Evidence is always a prerequisite for me. 

  • Like 3
Posted
25 minutes ago, redandbluemakepurple said:

If I may have a attempt Old55, the AFL should have wrapped this up more rapidly.

First up, their investigations officer should have interviewed all parties individually asap with or without their lawyer as they choose.

When it came apparent that their stories were incompatible and one side didn't want to meet the other side, the AFL should quickly have said that the basic facts could not be agreed and no further action was possible. 

The appointment of a panel of lawyers had no prospect of success. Gill's statement that "this is what they asked for" ducks responsibility. 

So no further action unless someone sues.  Then the jury will be able to look into their faces and work out who was gutted and who is defensive/ashamed.  I suspect that there won't be cases.  The interview with the  former Hawthorn football club welfare manager Jason Burt suggests that they should keep their heads down.

So Gill that is another big fail after Lamumba, Goodes, Rioli(?), etc.  The system to support indigenous and/or immature and/or isolated players is broken and you do not seem to care.  Sling me or many others some of your salary and we would tell you how to fix it.

A late night media conference to state that nothing has really been found or resolved.

All in the middle of the Sir Doug Nicholls rounds.

Onya Gil, don't let the door hit ya in the MRO on the way out.

  • Clap 1

Posted

On 360 they said that the North President put out a statement saying Clarkson had been cleared and that it was the right decision, as she had seen all the documents. What’s that about? Really?

Also said that two of the complainants “Zac and Amy” weren’t indigenous Australians.

What does that mean?

Is there a suggestion of bad treatment to non indigenous players or partners?

It’s all very confusing.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Posted

I'm very confused. I mean the AFL basically clear them but what about those alledged allegations about ditching the girlfriend, accusations or told to get an abortion. 

I still think they're questions that need to be answered 

Posted

The Age has reported that the lawyers for Clarkson, Fagan and Burt were proposing to seek an injunction this week to halt the AFL inquiry. If true it explains the haste to "call the whole thing off", which happened on Tuesday evening.

And of course there was a very different spin put on the development at the AFL press conference.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Posted
45 minutes ago, Redleg said:

On 360 they said that the North President put out a statement saying Clarkson had been cleared and that it was the right decision, as she had seen all the documents. What’s that about? Really?

Also said that two of the complainants “Zac and Amy” weren’t indigenous Australians.

What does that mean?

Is there a suggestion of bad treatment to non indigenous players or partners?

It’s all very confusing.

My bolded words are just putting fuel on the fire and are surprisingly ill-judged IMHO.

Posted
1 hour ago, Redleg said:

On 360 they said that the North President put out a statement saying Clarkson had been cleared and that it was the right decision, as she had seen all the documents. What’s that about? Really?

Also said that two of the complainants “Zac and Amy” weren’t indigenous Australians.

What does that mean?

Is there a suggestion of bad treatment to non indigenous players or partners?

It’s all very confusing.

First Nations has been used in the report/reporting several times, it's my understanding that one of the couples may be from a non Australian First Nations background.

Not sure it's wise to really emphasise that because surely the conduct matters more, but there you go.

Posted
23 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

surely the conduct matters more

Of course it does.

I guess after all the previous reporting, I don't know, it take me aback.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    TRAINING: Friday 22nd November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers were out in force on a scorching morning out at Gosch's Paddock for the final session before the whole squad reunites for the Preseason Training Camp. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS It’s going to be a scorcher today but I’m in the shade at Gosch’s Paddock ready to bring you some observations from the final session before the Preseason Training Camp next week.  Salem, Fritsch & Campbell are already on the track. Still no number on Campbell’s

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 2

    UP IN LIGHTS by Whispering Jack

    Those who watched the 2024 Marsh AFL National Championships closely this year would not be particularly surprised that Melbourne selected Victoria Country pair Harvey Langford and Xavier Lindsay on the first night of the AFL National Draft. The two left-footed midfielders are as different as chalk and cheese but they had similar impacts in their Coates Talent League teams and in the National Championships in 2024. Their interstate side was edged out at the very end of the tournament for tea

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features

    TRAINING: Wednesday 20th November 2024

    It’s a beautiful cool morning down at Gosch’s Paddock and I’ve arrived early to bring you my observations from today’s session. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Reigning Keith Bluey Truscott champion Jack Viney is the first one out on the track.  Jack’s wearing the red version of the new training guernsey which is the only version available for sale at the Demon Shop. TRAINING: Viney, Clarry, Lever, TMac, Rivers, Petty, McVee, Bowey, JVR, Hore, Tom Campbell (in tr

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Monday 18th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers ventured down to Gosch's Paddock for the final week of training for the 1st to 4th Years until they are joined by the rest of the senior squad for Preseason Training Camp in Mansfield next week. WAYNE RUSSELL'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS No Ollie, Chin, Riv today, but Rick & Spargs turned up and McDonald was there in casual attire. Seston, and Howes did a lot of boundary running, and Tom Campbell continued his work with individual trainer in non-MFC

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #11 Max Gawn

    Champion ruckman and brilliant leader, Max Gawn earned his seventh All-Australian team blazer and constantly held the team up on his shoulders in what was truly a difficult season for the Demons. Date of Birth: 30 December 1991 Height: 209cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 224 Goals MFC 2024: 11 Career Total: 109 Brownlow Medal Votes: 13 Melbourne Football Club: 2nd Best & Fairest: 405 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 12

    2024 Player Reviews: #36 Kysaiah Pickett

    The Demons’ aggressive small forward who kicks goals and defends the Demons’ ball in the forward arc. When he’s on song, he’s unstoppable but he did blot his copybook with a three week suspension in the final round. Date of Birth: 2 June 2001 Height: 171cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 106 Goals MFC 2024: 36 Career Total: 161 Brownlow Medal Votes: 3 Melbourne Football Club: 4th Best & Fairest: 369 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    TRAINING: Friday 15th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers took advantage of the beautiful sunshine to head down to Gosch's Paddock and witness the return of Clayton Oliver to club for his first session in the lead up to the 2025 season. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Clarry in the house!! Training: JVR, McVee, Windsor, Tholstrup, Woey, Brown, Petty, Adams, Chandler, Turner, Bowey, Seston, Kentfield, Laurie, Sparrow, Viney, Rivers, Jefferson, Hore, Howes, Verrall, AMW, Clarry Tom Campbell is here

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #7 Jack Viney

    The tough on baller won his second Keith 'Bluey' Truscott Trophy in a narrow battle with skipper Max Gawn and Alex Neal-Bullen and battled on manfully in the face of a number of injury niggles. Date of Birth: 13 April 1994 Height: 178cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 219 Goals MFC 2024: 10 Career Total: 66 Brownlow Medal Votes: 8

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 3

    TRAINING: Wednesday 13th November 2024

    A couple of Demonland Trackwatchers braved the rain and headed down to Gosch's paddock to bring you their observations from the second day of Preseason training for the 1st to 4th Year players. DITCHA'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS I attended some of the training today. Richo spoke to me and said not to believe what is in the media, as we will good this year. Jefferson and Kentfield looked big and strong.  Petty was doing all the training. Adams looked like he was in rehab.  KE

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...