Hawks racism allegations (merged thread)

[Lord Nev 13,512]

2 minutes ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Ordinary article by Caro in TheAge

Citing Sam Mitchell's book published in 2018, and conversations with non-indigenous player who all said "that their own experiences should not be compared to those published in the cultural safety review"

And the majority "stressed that Clarkson saw himself as a father figure at the club who, while at times overstepping the mark in interfering in their personal lives, firmly believed he was prioritising the best interests of his footballers"

The most shocking "fresh" allegation is that Mitchell had to hand his phone in with all temates while away and his Mrs was often needing to take on of the babies to hospital  -  and a few paragraphs later actually note the fact that the phone was given back and an exception made for him...

So a non-story with no relevant new information insinuating there is more shocking accusations, just so Caro can get some column inches out the door...

Come on mate, pretty clearly you're trying to diminish what happened here seemingly because you have something against Caroline Wilson for some reason.

Re: 'taking one of the babies to hospital' - Clearly more serious than that, and Evans had to step in:

Both Sam and Lyndall Mitchell had feared for daughter Scarlett's survival at a young age. Then-football boss Mark Evans is understood to have stepped in and returned Mitchell's phone to him so he could remain in contact with his wife.

Mitchell: “I felt I didn't get a lot of empathy from the powers that be at Hawthorn for what Lyndall and I were going through,”

Then:

The Age have also reported further allegations against Clarkson that surround his controlling behaviour have surfaced, with the four-time premiership coach alleged to have:

• Expressed surprise before the twins' birth that Mitchell was having children so close together (the Mitchell's son Smith was 11 months old when the twins were born) and wondered at the effect this might have upon his playing career.
• Publicly announced Mitchell was missing a game against Richmond due to personal reasons relating to the twins' health without the player's knowledge or consent.
• Ultimately agreed to treat Mitchell with more respect when the pair resolved their differences at the end of the season but again questioned the wisdom of the timing of the twins' birth.

Further details surrounding the Mitchells' time at the club were also recounted by the wife of an ex-player, who revealed Lyndall was criticised for not showing enough emotion following the club's preliminary final loss to Collingwood in 2011.

What Clarkson "believes" has absolutely no bearing on this as is not a defence at all. It's what you actually do that matters, not how you define it in your own mind.

It's not end of the world stuff, but absolutely adds to a picture about Clarkson.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

I agree there's probably not a lot of new info here. Clarko's been known to be controlling for a long time. Once a school teacher, always a school teacher.

But the behaviour towards families and pregnant women does seem beyond the scope of normal psycho footy stuff.

In some ways this might help him because he wasn't just picking on Indigenous players, he was willing to give similar treatment to his former captain!

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

6 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree there's probably not a lot of new info here. Clarko's been known to be controlling for a long time. Once a school teacher, always a school teacher.

But the behaviour towards families and pregnant women does seem beyond the scope of normal psycho footy stuff.

In some ways this might help him because he wasn't just picking on Indigenous players, he was willing to give similar treatment to his former captain!

I had heard this before but just googled it to find the attribution.

 

A famous quote from Green Bay Packer glory years defensive tackle Henry Jordan referring to his coach Vince Lombardi,

“Lombardi treated us all the same, like dogs.”

 

[daisycutter 29,613]

10 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I had heard this before but just googled it to find the attribution.

 

A famous quote from Green Bay Packer glory years defensive tackle Henry Jordan referring to his coach Vince Lombardi,

“Lombardi treated us all the same, like dogs.”

 

yes, uncle. let's just hope they don't deconstruct ron barassi or norm smith.   might have to pull a couple of statues down. 

[layzie 33,796]

40 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I had heard this before but just googled it to find the attribution.

 

A famous quote from Green Bay Packer glory years defensive tackle Henry Jordan referring to his coach Vince Lombardi,

“Lombardi treated us all the same, like dogs.”

 

Great quote Unc!

[sue 9,102]

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree there's probably not a lot of new info here. Clarko's been known to be controlling for a long time. Once a school teacher, always a school teacher.

But the behaviour towards families and pregnant women does seem beyond the scope of normal psycho footy stuff.

In some ways this might help him because he wasn't just picking on Indigenous players, he was willing to give similar treatment to his former captain!

In other ways it doesn't.  It adds credibility to the indigenous families' claims since it is independent evidence of his controlling behaviour.  The degree, extent and nature of the controlling behaviour in the case of indigenous players can still raise the question of racism.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,214]

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree there's probably not a lot of new info here. Clarko's been known to be controlling for a long time. Once a school teacher, always a school teacher.

But the behaviour towards families and pregnant women does seem beyond the scope of normal psycho footy stuff.

In some ways this might help him because he wasn't just picking on Indigenous players, he was willing to give similar treatment to his former captain!

Kind of although the allegations are a little different in that Clarkson doesn't seem to have encouraged Mitchell and his partner to have an abortion once they found out they were pregnant only months after having their first child and didn't encourage Mitchell to leave his partner, swap the Sim from his phone, tell him to move in with an assistant coach and deny all contact between he and his partner.

Of course this is assuming Mitchell's allegations are even true, at the moment they are just unsubstantiated allegations which the former coaches haven't had an opportunity to respond to and which don't appear to be supported by any evidence whatsoever. Merely hearsay at this stage, hopefully Clarksons lawyer can cross-examine Mitchell to get to the truth of the matter.

[Lucifers Hero 39,758]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Of course this is assuming Mitchell's allegations are even true, at the moment they are just unsubstantiated allegations which the former coaches haven't had an opportunity to respond to and which don't appear to be supported by any evidence whatsoever. Merely hearsay at this stage, hopefully Clarksons lawyer can cross-examine Mitchell to get to the truth of the matter.

Not sure if you would call the extract's from Mitchell's book evidence but no one complained at the time it was published.

Referenced in the article fresh-allegations-emerge-of-alastair-clarkson-s-controlling-behaviour: " Mitchell detailed some elements of his fall-out with Clarkson in his autobiography Relentless, which was published after his playing retirement. He stated in the book that he came close to leaving Hawthorn for Collingwood so deep was his disappointment at the way he was treated by the senior coach".

Some really unsavoury stuff quoted from Mitchell's book.

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,775]

2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Come on mate, pretty clearly you're trying to diminish what happened here seemingly because you have something against Caroline Wilson for some reason

Garbage, and you know it

I have no idea what happened here, and have stated that above. Neither do most people btw

Simply calling out this story doesn’t add fresh allegations, and the story also admits the experiences spoken of should not be compared to those published in the cultural safety review... But written in a way to give the impression she's added to the case against Clarkson

You are right, tho, that I don't rate Caro, because of articles like this

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

14 minutes ago, sue said:

In other ways it doesn't.  It adds credibility to the indigenous families' claims since it is independent evidence of his controlling behaviour.  The degree, extent and nature of the controlling behaviour in the case of indigenous players can still raise the question of racism.

I agree, but it does give them a bit of an out that the motivation wasn’t racial even if the result was. The alleged behaviour is at a minimum culturally insensitive, which from there can easily be called systemic racism. Career wise you can still survive that (if some of the allegations don’t stack up). Overt racism not so much. 

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,775]

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree there's probably not a lot of new info here. Clarko's been known to be controlling for a long time. Once a school teacher, always a school teacher.

But the behaviour towards families and pregnant women does seem beyond the scope of normal psycho footy stuff.

In some ways this might help him because he wasn't just picking on Indigenous players, he was willing to give similar treatment to his former captain!

 

19 minutes ago, sue said:

In other ways it doesn't.  It adds credibility to the indigenous families' claims since it is independent evidence of his controlling behaviour.  The degree, extent and nature of the controlling behaviour in the case of indigenous players can still raise the question of racism.

I think these two takes are a strong potential to be the competing narratives coming out of any further investigation 

My guess is that any allegations are based in (at least some level of) fact. But context and different individual perspectives aren't yet clear and will be important 

But I can’t see a situation where context or varied perspectives can explain the accusations of pressuring family planning decisions... If that's in any way true, then those responsible are likely irreparably damaged

[Lucifers Hero 39,758]

Hodge on Clarkson:  alastair-clarkson-gave-me-honest-truths-i-needed

Neale on Fagan:  we-re-a-family-neale-throws-support-behind-fagan

Edited October 1, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

5 hours ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Ordinary article by Caro in TheAge

Citing Sam Mitchell's book published in 2018, and conversations with non-indigenous player who all said "that their own experiences should not be compared to those published in the cultural safety review"

And the majority "stressed that Clarkson saw himself as a father figure at the club who, while at times overstepping the mark in interfering in their personal lives, firmly believed he was prioritising the best interests of his footballers"

The most shocking "fresh" allegation is that Mitchell had to hand his phone in with all temates while away and his Mrs was often needing to take on of the babies to hospital  -  and a few paragraphs later actually note the fact that the phone was given back and an exception made for him...

So a non-story with no relevant new information insinuating there is more shocking accusations, just so Caro can get some column inches out the door...

She’s an absolute tra$p

[Heart Beats True 1,230]

 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,856]

7 hours ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Garbage, and you know it

I have no idea what happened here, and have stated that above. Neither do most people btw

Simply calling out this story doesn’t add fresh allegations, and the story also admits the experiences spoken of should not be compared to those published in the cultural safety review... But written in a way to give the impression she's added to the case against Clarkson

You are right, tho, that I don't rate Caro, because of articles like this

Couldn’t agree more and personally I prefer to wait for the facts to come out prior to making judgement or commenting on these matters. Here though, we have the same old Demonland know it all’s casting aspersions and making judgements without knowing any of the facts. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Seems Dymocks must have made a horrible mistake...

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-01/hawthorn-the-afls-iron-grip-authority-is-being-challenged/101493984

Seems like Gil's ability to control everything AFL and write their own outcome is starting to crack

[Lord Nev 13,512]

 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

This is all so grim and massively tarnishes their success at the time.

[chookrat 4,247]

21 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I agree there's probably not a lot of new info here. Clarko's been known to be controlling for a long time. Once a school teacher, always a school teacher.

But the behaviour towards families and pregnant women does seem beyond the scope of normal psycho footy stuff.

In some ways this might help him because he wasn't just picking on Indigenous players, he was willing to give similar treatment to his former captain!

While some of the stories look to overstep the mark re what many if us would find acceptable, Clarkson and Fagan's primary role was to win Premierships and they were very successful at that during the period in question.  It is pretty clear that a stable home environment is conducive to high performance on the field so it is reasonable that the Footy department discusses with players their relationships, plans to have children etc.

It looks like their approach is consistent across both First Nations and non-indigenous players, and that while the approach may not have adequately taken into account the cultural sensitivities of the indigenous players, this is an area we are still learning about as a society. I'm not convinced Clarkson and Fagan have done much wrong here, certainly not to the extent that the media has portrayed, and not to the point that they should be stepping down from their roles.

[rpfc 28,407]

10 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

This is all so grim and massively tarnishes their success at the time.

Yes it does. And I am sure ‘three-peats’ are much easier when you create a culture that family is to be diminished and all of life outside football are considered distractions to avoid. 

I can now get my head around how that ‘culture’ can be then applied to the indigenous experience with appalling consequences. 

Starting to see they treated everyone the same…

Family club hey…

[Lucifers Hero 39,758]

WorkSafe are now involved worksafe-probes-hawthorn-amid-racism-allegations

They AFL will now have three 'reports' to fight 'rear guard' actions on if it doesn't get its 'panel' together very quickly. 

They have completely lost control of this.  They can't shape the agenda, the optics nor the outcomes.  Which is probably a good thing.  Too much manipulation of 'negative' news in the past.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

9 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

WorkSafe are now involved worksafe-probes-hawthorn-amid-racism-allegations

They AFL will now have three 'reports' to fight 'rear guard' actions on if it doesn't get its 'panel' together very quickly. 

They have completely lost control of this. 

Not only that Luci but the newspaper article this morning claimed "materials seized" by Worksafe.

What are these materials? Will the AFL panel have access? Will witnesses etc want to speak to both enquiries?

The Worksafe enquiry has legal validity.

Is the AFL enquiry now compromised or even superfluous?

Edited October 1, 2022 by Bitter but optimistic

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,775]

13 minutes ago, chookrat said:

While some of the stories look to overstep the mark re what many if us would find acceptable, Clarkson and Fagan's primary role was to win Premierships and they were very successful at that during the period in question.  It is pretty clear that a stable home environment is conducive to high performance on the field so it is reasonable that the Footy department discusses with players their relationships, plans to have children etc.

It looks like their approach is consistent across both First Nations and non-indigenous players, and that while the approach may not have adequately taken into account the cultural sensitivities of the indigenous players, this is an area we are still learning about as a society. I'm not convinced Clarkson and Fagan have done much wrong here, certainly not to the extent that the media has portrayed, and not to the point that they should be stepping down from their roles.

I've found it interesting the backlash at the allegations that HFC intervened in the home living arrangements for one (or more?) of those laying accusations. I understand that football clubs routinely advise (or require) certain living arrangements and have role dedicated to developing players off-field, even today...

I'm waiting to understand the context, and if there was a lack of cultural sensitivity that meant indigenous players as a group weren't treated appropriately. Or whether it was one individual circumstances not treated appropriately. Or another explanation...

Time may tell? (Or may not)

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,775]

2 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Not only that Luci but the newspaper article this morning claimed "materials seized" by Worksafe.

What are these materials? Will the AFL panel have access? Will witnesses etc want to speak to both enquiries?

Is the AFL enquiry now compromised or even superfluous?

Noticed that too... "Seized" is an interesting choice of words.

I wonder if the "seizing" involved a routine request for relevant information and the helpful compliance of those providing the information?