Demons won't win the flag in 2022.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, leucopogon said:

Like Praha said, it was a rent-a-crowd, nothing at all like a pro-Pies packed MCG. There were fools decked out in full Bulldogs costume celebrating with our players as they did their lap of honour with the cup FFS.

This is so insulting to the many, many Dees supporters who made the trip to Perth or who already were living/staying in Perth, who turned up to support OUR team in the quest to win the premiership. 
The crowd that day were PHENOMENAL! For you to disparage them so is shameful. 

[1964_2 2,357]

49 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

Not buying the doom and gloom.  I've seen enough sides in identical positions to us now (with even worse form coming into finals) make GF's or actually win it.  Dropping the first final isn't necessarily an impediment to winning a flag. Just this century you've got Brisbane in 2003, Sydney in 2005, West Coast in 2006, Hawthorn in 2015, Richmond 2020; then teams who have made the GF after losing in week 1 include Sydney in 2016, Collingwood in 2018 and Geelong in 2020 just in the last 6 years.  Add to that the Bulldogs who won a flag and made another GF (2016 and 2021) playing each week. 

Very historical but both flags our own coach played in were 4 week finals campaigns - in 1997 they won them all and in 1998 they lost the first one then got three in a row to claim back to back. Let's hope history repeats.

Agree with you that losing the first final is not the issue. Especially with the pre-finals bye.

The issue is the ease with which the best teams pick apart our system, knowing we won’t respond or change much. 

 

[BLWNBA 928]

6 hours ago, Deenooos_ said:

Yeh tbh for some reason pressure completely dismantles our game which is odd because it's part of footy. I wonder if the teams in last year's finals were poor pressure sides or were we able to handle it better?

I guess there's no way around Sydney or Coll so I don't see us winning but making a prelim or granny is huge even if we come up short. We will have to look at how we can become a better pressure side over the summer because we need to get back up into the top 5 in the comp like 2021.

When I look at our young guys nobody can really bash them for being mediocre at times or inconsistent: Sparrow, Spargo, Rivers, Jackson, Pickett, Jordon are all under 22 and are already showing their talent. I can't wait for next year after another full preseason and think JVR will probably become a consistent part of our forward line!

We will be top 2/3 again next year and the hunger will be back. I think the whole year has just been mentally and physically draining and that's understandable.

I think this is fair.

Personally, I’m not as confident as our ability to make inroads at the pointy end of the year going forward. Obviously it’s speculative but it seems that the sides ‘around us’ have improved incrementally above what we’ve been able to. But I’m not completely writing us off regarding the coming years. 
 

I’ve thought for a few weeks now that there seems to be shades of the 2017 Tigers about us. 

[Swooper1987 3,322]

1 hour ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

This is so insulting to the many, many Dees supporters who made the trip to Perth or who already were living/staying in Perth, who turned up to support OUR team in the quest to win the premiership. 
The crowd that day were PHENOMENAL! For you to disparage them so is shameful. 

Agree with this.  I'd go further to say that we won the most difficult flag of all to win.  Not one single opportunity for a home final, every game at a neutral venue probably makes it the purest finals campaign of all time. Anyone who attempts to rewrite history by belittling our performance last year on the basis that it wasn't at the MCG is absolutely kidding themselves.  Geelong until this year proved themselves finals chokers in all environments, the Swans got belted in GF's at the G in 2014 and 2016.  No need to go into the litany of finals debacles Collingwood have had at the G.  Those who supported us in Perth last year deserve our respect and gratitude.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Swooper1987

[Sir Why You Little 36,963]

16 hours ago, praha said:

Well you know that's not an option...

I'm just calling it like I see it. Not saying we aren't capable but let's get real. We aren't going to get respect from the big boys until we start doing what we did last year on the big stage at the MCG.

I don’t care about gaining Respect. What does that mean anyway?  Considering Tracc had a broken leg it was a pretty tough effort 

I prefer 17 other Clubs to hate us personally

Edited September 4, 2022 by Sir Why You Little

[rpfc 28,261]

7 hours ago, Deenooos_ said:

Yeh tbh for some reason pressure completely dismantles our game which is odd because it's part of footy. I wonder if the teams in last year's finals were poor pressure sides or were we able to handle it better?

I guess there's no way around Sydney or Coll so I don't see us winning but making a prelim or granny is huge even if we come up short. We will have to look at how we can become a better pressure side over the summer because we need to get back up into the top 5 in the comp like 2021.

When I look at our young guys nobody can really bash them for being mediocre at times or inconsistent: Sparrow, Spargo, Rivers, Jackson, Pickett, Jordon are all under 22 and are already showing their talent. I can't wait for next year after another full preseason and think JVR will probably become a consistent part of our forward line!

We will be top 2/3 again next year and the hunger will be back. I think the whole year has just been mentally and physically draining and that's understandable.

When your trust between your players is just a little off, it shows when you play teams (like us last year) that; don’t second guess a quick hand pass, make the effort to run past for overlap, leave their man to impact the contest. 

The boys have looked ‘tight’ all year and we have not prioritised our own pressure game all year and I would love to know why. Form is not to be flirted with; if it is such a taxing game style then rotate players through the forward line.

That is my main critique of the FD this year, and tbh the whole club, we just seem rather arrogant in how we go about things. Altering your forward pressure game style because your defence CAN absorb it most of the year is, I am sorry, an arrogant and misguided thing to do IMO. 

[Swooper1987 3,322]

1 hour ago, 1964_2 said:

Agree with you that losing the first final is not the issue. Especially with the pre-finals bye.

The issue is the ease with which the best teams pick apart our system, knowing we won’t respond or change much. 

 

Not certain how easy they are doing it. Our losses to Collingwood and Freo in the run of three were largely injury/personnel based.  Injuries in game had an enormous impact - May, Petty, Gawn, Petracca.  Then the second loss to Collingwood could genuinely have gone either way, similar to our first loss to Sydney, again without May. Lack of discipline cost us more than anything on Friday night.  I reckon those sides played at their best to beat us - that's not easy to do every game.

[Sydee 4,379]

17 hours ago, leucopogon said:

Like Praha said, it was a rent-a-crowd, nothing at all like a pro-Pies packed MCG. There were fools decked out in full Bulldogs costume celebrating with our players as they did their lap of honour with the cup FFS.

Our guys seemed to go alright two weeks ago against a very parochial Brisbane crowd - a team that it all to play for yet we’re monstered from start to finish 

 

[1964_2 2,357]

7 hours ago, Swooper1987 said:

Not certain how easy they are doing it. Our losses to Collingwood and Freo in the run of three were largely injury/personnel based.  Injuries in game had an enormous impact - May, Petty, Gawn, Petracca.  Then the second loss to Collingwood could genuinely have gone either way, similar to our first loss to Sydney, again without May. Lack of discipline cost us more than anything on Friday night.  I reckon those sides played at their best to beat us - that's not easy to do every game.

All good points. But we are 0-5 against the 3 clear best teams in the comp. Tough to argue we have been unlucky 5 times in a row. 
 

[dazzledavey36 54,261]

7 hours ago, Swooper1987 said:

Not certain how easy they are doing it. Our losses to Collingwood and Freo in the run of three were largely injury/personnel based.  Injuries in game had an enormous impact - May, Petty, Gawn, Petracca.  Then the second loss to Collingwood could genuinely have gone either way, similar to our first loss to Sydney, again without May. Lack of discipline cost us more than anything on Friday night.  I reckon those sides played at their best to beat us - that's not easy to do every game.

You really think lack of discipline costs us more then anything on Friday night?

Wow..

Your disrespect for how well Sydney played is disappointing. 

[rjay 24,870]

We're in the final 6 so yes we can still win it.

I think last season we were clearly the best team in it and the result showed.

It rarely happens that one team is head and shoulders above the rest of the competition.

Why hasn't it carried though to this season...well we had everything fall into place last season and this year has been a battle.

The other thing is that other teams get better, we seem to have stagnated and for a range of reasons come back to the pack.

If I was a betting man I would have Sydney as favourites today.

...but there is not a lot between the teams left.

A few changes to selection, tactics, player positions, health, mind...and we're right in it.

We do the same as Friday night then, no we can't win it and could even be tipped out this week.

To our supporters, some of you need to toughen up a bit. There's no guarantees in footy, we're not just going to steamroll everyone. This is an even season, we're still in it.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,171]

On 9/3/2022 at 8:27 PM, praha said:

Well you know that's not an option...

I'm just calling it like I see it. Not saying we aren't capable but let's get real. We aren't going to get respect from the big boys until we start doing what we did last year on the big stage at the MCG.

Who gives a [censored] if those dirtbags respect us??

[Adam The God 30,126]

8 hours ago, rpfc said:

When your trust between your players is just a little off, it shows when you play teams (like us last year) that; don’t second guess a quick hand pass, make the effort to run past for overlap, leave their man to impact the contest. 

The boys have looked ‘tight’ all year and we have not prioritised our own pressure game all year and I would love to know why. Form is not to be flirted with; if it is such a taxing game style then rotate players through the forward line.

That is my main critique of the FD this year, and tbh the whole club, we just seem rather arrogant in how we go about things. Altering your forward pressure game style because your defence CAN absorb it most of the year is, I am sorry, an arrogant and misguided thing to do IMO. 

If it's in aid of trying to score more (by sitting our zone deeper, allowing more room for our own slingshot), then I don't see it as arrogant.

But our game style revolves around post clearance pressure, which brings our interceptors into the game.

Whilst we haven't seemed to be as good at that in the second half of the year, we were definitely solid enough in the first half of the year.

This is why Goodwin rates the post clearance pressure stats and they are not readily available to the public, so we've no idea where we sit in those numbers.

Match that with our ability to win CP being -1 or even -2 at contest, IMV, there's little arrogance about it. It's trying to maximise our strengths (our intercept game and just about the best midfield in the game).

I do think there are times where we let -2 happen at contest when we shouldn't, but that's a philosophical position and I get that's a hard thing to implement - knowing when to send an extra up to the contest. It basically has to be player driven.

Edited September 4, 2022 by A F

[Adam The God 30,126]

Also, the idea that we can't get it done in front of big hostile crowds, yet we travel brilliantly, is real big brain stuff.

[Swooper1987 3,322]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

You really think lack of discipline costs us more then anything on Friday night?

Wow..

Your disrespect for how well Sydney played is disappointing. 

3 50 metre penalties resulting directly in 3 goals equals 18 points.  We lost by 22.  I'd say that cost us more than anything. Of course we all respect Sydney but to be honest I have no idea why you'd be disappointed or otherwise in what I think or don't think about Sydney.  

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

3 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

3 50 metre penalties resulting directly in 3 goals equals 18 points.  We lost by 22.  I'd say that cost us more than anything. Of course we all respect Sydney but to be honest I have no idea why you'd be disappointed or otherwise in what I think or don't think about Sydney.  

50 metre penalty goals conceded are momentum killers. Do more damage than just 6 points a pop especially in tightly contested games. 

[Swooper1987 3,322]

Just now, John Crow Batty said:

50 metre penalty goals conceded are momentum killers. Do more damage than just 6 points a pop especially in tightly contested games. 

Thanks John, agree entirely. They cost us more than anything else on the night.

[titan_uranus 24,971]

1 hour ago, 1964_2 said:

All good points. But we are 0-5 against the 3 clear best teams in the comp. Tough to argue we have been unlucky 5 times in a row. 
 

Luck isn't the sole reason for those 5 losses.

But in four of those losses we led by at least 16 points, and in three of them we led by 20+.

We were on the wrong side of two close games (first Sydney, second Collingwood) and we did enough to put ourselves in a winning position in the other two, plus honestly the Geelong game.

What concerns me is less that we're 0-5, more that each one's been similar - starting well, fading mid/late, and in all bar the second Collingwood game unable to press far enough in the fourth to stem the tide or score enough to win. In those five games, we kicked 6.10 in the fourth quarters compared to 20.13. 

I fully believe we're capable of beating Brisbane, then Geelong, then (likely) Sydney to win it from here. But it's going to take a concerted effort to not be run over in the fourth quarter as we have been each time we've played a top 4 side this year.

[rpfc 28,261]

1 hour ago, A F said:

If it's in aid of trying to score more (by sitting our zone deeper, allowing more room for our own slingshot), then I don't see it as arrogant.

But our game style revolves around post clearance pressure, which brings our interceptors into the game.

Whilst we haven't seemed to be as good at that in the second half of the year, we were definitely solid enough in the first half of the year.

This is why Goodwin rates the post clearance pressure stats and they are not readily available to the public, so we've no idea where we sit in those numbers.

Match that with our ability to win CP being -1 or even -2 at contest, IMV, there's little arrogance about it. It's trying to maximise our strengths (our intercept game and just about the best midfield in the game).

I do think there are times where we let -2 happen at contest when we shouldn't, but that's a philosophical position and I get that's a hard thing to implement - knowing when to send an extra up to the contest. It basically has to be player driven.

We sweet top 4 in pressure last year and now we are one of the worst in the league. Whatever the metric - they are applied the same this year as to last. Allowing teams out of our forward 50 is a specific weakness, we are one of the worst there too.

I think it is direction, a choice to allow the water to crash against the rocks of our defence further up the ground. And now when we want to turn the pressure valve back on and then burn into our transition it comes and it goes - it is not second nature. 

What we are trying to play in the last few weeks of the season is different to what we have all year. 

As Boromir would say - it is folly.

[Fanatique Demon 2,642]

Many of you are going to hate this, especially those making excuses or finding reasons why we should have won games we lost. Other teams could argue the same when we beat them. Our record against Collingwood, Sydney and Geelong this year shows we are probably the fourth best club in it.  Yes, on our day we could beat all of them. But we have too few of those days. We don’t apply pressure, we fumble under opposition pressure, we miss easy goals and we can’t run out games. Let’s be realistic…  Unless we fix those problems we won’t make it past Friday night. 

[Adam The God 30,126]

10 minutes ago, rpfc said:

We sweet top 4 in pressure last year and now we are one of the worst in the league. Whatever the metric - they are applied the same this year as to last. Allowing teams out of our forward 50 is a specific weakness, we are one of the worst there too.

I think it is direction, a choice to allow the water to crash against the rocks of our defence further up the ground. And now when we want to turn the pressure valve back on and then burn into our transition it comes and it goes - it is not second nature. 

I think we're kind of saying the same thing here. We're allowing more room for our slingshot.

We haven't been effective because we've been heavily loading, which affects transition.

But you could well be right with it not being second nature as loading should not have been impacting us in the last few games.

10 minutes ago, rpfc said:

What we are trying to play in the last few weeks of the season is different to what we have all year. 

Are you saying we've only just started sitting the zone deeper?

[The Trunk 24]

Firstly this is the first time I have posted on Demonland. As a lifelong Demons supporter (40 years paid up member) I have had a gutful of those people who on this site refer to last years Grand Final crowd as “Rent A Crowd”. Myself I flew from Queensland did my two weeks penance in Hobart and then flew to Gulag  WA for the game. I watched the teams final training run before the game along with I would estimate 8-10000 other Demon supporters ( not West Coast neutrals but true Demons ). I was surrounded at the game with genuine Demons and went to the Sunday post game Parade along with another 10000 other Demon Supporters . The guttural almost primeval roar of the crowd in the 3rd quarter had to be heard to be believed ( just ask Simon Goodwin). This wasn’t the roar of neutral supporters. I wasn’t at the game on Friday but if the “true Melbourne supporters” were as quiet as church mice as stated by numerous supporters on this site that is sad. It certainly was not like that in Perth

[Deemania since 56 6,608]

17 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

Agree with you that losing the first final is not the issue. Especially with the pre-finals bye.

The issue is the ease with which the best teams pick apart our system, knowing we won’t respond or change much. 

 

The game plan (s) needs/need some shifts as pressure is applied by teams who can 'read' what we currently offer. More work and exposure to alternatives and the appropriate implementation of these onfield is required with some urgency but it is too late in the season for this to take place. We need a clutch of harmoniously-trained 'reserve' players at the ready, given match reality opportunities across the next season and thus, the whole team may ideally be less predictable and suicidal. Conservatism had eroded what we nearly achieved across 2021/2022. We might not win the flag this year as a consequence; for next year, we face the same issues unless strategies vary in our environment.

 

[praha 11,235]

8 hours ago, A F said:

Also, the idea that we can't get it done in front of big hostile crowds, yet we travel brilliantly, is real big brain stuff.

If we beat Brisbane but lose to Geelong we'll actually go down as having statistically the worst record against the top 4 after actually finishing in the top 4: no top 4 team in history has finished with an 0-6 record against the other 3 top 4 teams.

[rpfc 28,261]

6 hours ago, A F said:

I think we're kind of saying the same thing here. We're allowing more room for our slingshot.

We haven't been effective because we've been heavily loading, which affects transition.

But you could well be right with it not being second nature as loading should not have been impacting us in the last few games.

Are you saying we've only just started sitting the zone deeper?

To me, it looked like until the last few rounds and sporadic qtrs and halves that we de-emphasised pressure in the F50. That was borne out in the stats as well as the eye test.

Now we up the pressure and we can’t execute; teams are dealing with it. We are not in sync; two will go to the ball, none to the 2nd attacker or the 3rd. Or the next line in the web doesn’t react as it should and they get an easy hit up.

As our web/zone was deep we defended differently than to the last few weeks; notice how high up our HBFs have been the last month. Teams now slingshot against us with all the space behind us or before they get to May.

Posters on here talk about not having a Plan B and that has always been such a misguided desire; teams need to be predictable to each other so they work like it is second nature. At the moment we don’t seem to know our Plan A well enough.