1 hour ago, Sydee said:

Hyperbole from these cretins as usual

He knew he wasn’t going to be #1 ruck at MFC and must have felt that a reasonable time as a forward was always how it was going to be required to stay in the team when Max was playing and fit 

The fact is both Max and Brodie need to get better as forwards if this arrangement is ever going to deliver what was promised / expected 

Both have the football IQ to make that happen 

Suggesting someone can’t be a capable forward if they have played ruck before is insulting - there are some pretty lazy dumb forwards floating around and I think these guys have what it takes to make it work with some good coaching Lloyd loves to think bring a forward is impossible because he never played elsewhere 

 

I would think too that it is not just a matter of Brodie going off on his own to "learn the craft". It would involve a lot of working at training and in planning with Stafford, BB, Fritsch, the smalls etc to learn how to work together-and part of that is them learning to work with Brodie too. As well, the mids and whoever else is delivering the ball need to become adept at learning Brodie's strengths, limitations and leading patterns and movements. Just remember how well that worked in the 2021 GF with Harmes and Fritsch and how that helped turn the game. If we continue to bomb it long and just expect magic to happen then that shouldn't be seen as Gawndy not working. Having said that, yes both Max and BG need to really work on the forward side of their game.

49 minutes ago, old dee said:

That last one was a disaster Mr. Leg.

I was there that day-what a disaster-Quinlan was on fire and it was so unfair on Robbie Flower.

Buckley coached Grundy either as assistant or head coach for Grundy's entire career.

On Fox he was skeptical about him playing forward.

Sure... it's one opinion

1 hour ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Buckley coached Grundy either as assistant or head coach for Grundy's entire career.

On Fox he was skeptical about him playing forward.

Sure... it's one opinion

Remind me how many Premierships he managed  ??

Point being....what was he trying to coach ( re  Grundy ) 

In the end...it's one opinion... 

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

This is not about him taking contested marks and kicking the odd goal - this is about him leading to the right spots, exploiting spaces, being in the right places to contest and bring the ball down - that is the forward craft we have missed recently. It is selfless moving and leading, and mids and rucks struggle because they want to be where the ball either is or will be rather than move to where the ball may not go just to open up the ground for teammates.

Its not easy to learn and it takes discipline to be consistent.

Certainly not a 5 min job to perfect. And the whole 'package' of how a good forward works is not a quick read.....but it's  not War and Peace , nor Britannica ( apols to younger gens...lol )..   There's a distinct logic about where to be...  you dont learn it rote...you either do or don't get it as much is the application of instictive understanding of opportunistic instances.. Yes a very convoluted way of saying.. position, space and timing.

Some will never get it no matter how much teaching and training....  others...it's inherent...   most....somewhere in between. 

Footy (sport ) is funny in a fashion....some who struggle with common tasks can play a ball like on a string.   Theres such a thing as Footy Smarts ( nouse etc ) . Some can read the flight... some know where to be or how to get there...and have never been 'taught' 

I have no doubt Grundy gets it. His focus will now change.  I'm happy to back him in. He's a skilled talented and very smart player.

Stafford being a former ruck may give us an interesting look to make this work 

Personally i think it's just that we wanted more forwards for the lions game because they have good defence and a poorer ruck.

We now have a period of softer games with no top 8 teams so why not use the time to rest him while he gets some more skills.

I think Grundy has his spot even if he's a [censored] forward, were just using our softer run to try get a little more out of him.

I'm skeptical how Grundy gets back into the side with Fritsch still to come in & with Melksham dare I say it borderline un-droppable for at least the short term

He'd need BBB or JVR to really go off the boil

Edited July 16, 20231 yr by adonski

2 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Buckley coached Grundy either as assistant or head coach for Grundy's entire career.

On Fox he was skeptical about him playing forward.

Sure... it's one opinion

what did figjam actually say? any quotes?

Grundy isn't a forward and at this stage of his career isn't going to become one. Hard to not see a trade at season's end, perhaps bringing in backup ruck.

The truth is that Brown & JVR aren't any better than Grundy up forward ... not on their current output

And from an overall perspective, Grundy is a better player than both the other 2 and is obviously a better ruckman

I'm expecting Grundy to come back into the side within 1 to 3 weeks.  It won't be any longer than that otherwise we will have an off-season problem

John Nicholls averaged a goal a game in his long career but went forward in the '72 GF and booted 6 goals

Too many people buying into others metrics.

 

16 minutes ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

what did figjam actually say? any quotes?

The jam is bitter

11 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Grundy isn't a forward and at this stage of his career isn't going to become one. Hard to not see a trade at season's end, perhaps bringing in backup ruck.

Hes 4 to 5 years of footy .. thats a pretty dogmatic conclusion.

I'd be disappointed to see a trade.

Dont ( imho ) see it as necessary. 

But we can seevat seasons end.

Grundy will play 2-3 weeks in the VFL.  He’ll then be given a chance to see if he can play forward in the AFL. I have little doubt the club originally thought Gawn would play predominantly forward. They now know he’s way to valuable in the ruck so it’s been put on Grundy. Grundy’s coasted a bit this year for mine. I think this puts the pressure back on him. I think he’ll take it and become a key component of our flag this year. Imagine the roar when he kicks a goal in the GF to put us further in front of Port. It’s going to be awesome 

He has a contract with us, so we don't need to let him go if we choose not to. This is a Premiership window - if we think just having him around for 15 games a year for the next few to ensure Gawn is fresh for the finals, we are well within our rights to do that.

That being said, clubs generally act in good faith. If Grundy signed with us on the basis of predominately playing ruck and he wants to do that, but now we're saying he won't do that, I think we'd act in good faith to let him go to another club if he made that request. There is a catch to this - there is no way we do this as a 'fire-sale' - that is, taking less than what we gave away for him, or having to pay any part of his salary. There is also a question of his Collingwood contact - are Collingwood only obliged to pay part of his contract on the basis that he's playing with us, or also on the basis that he is 'on-traded' - the answer there could significantly effect what might happen.

Ideally, we'd want to keep him so that around 2025-2026 and beyond, when Gawn may have deteriorated substantially or given it away, if we are still in the Premiership window, he would be ideal to have at the club. I can't see him happy to bide time as a back-up ruckman for two years though.

20 minutes ago, Macca said:

The truth is that Brown & JVR aren't any better than Grundy up forward ... not on their current output

And from an overall perspective, Grundy is a better player than both the other 2 and is obviously a better ruckman

I'm expecting Grundy to come back into the side within 1 to 3 weeks.  It won't be any longer than that otherwise we will have an off-season problem

John Nicholls averaged a goal a game in his long career but went forward in the '72 GF and booted 6 goals

And Balme kicked five from memory.

5 hours ago, Redleg said:

Peter Wright says hello to all the doubters that say ruckmen can’t play forward. The Pies Cox also gives a big hi. Charlie Dixon also sends greetings. Luke Jackson joins in.

Ben McEvoy often played forward scoring goals.

Just as a few examples.

But then Damien Barrett says it can’t happen and Sunday panel agree, so it can’t then.

And Simon Madden only had 5000+ hit outs and kicked 575 goals for Essendon

51 minutes ago, adonski said:

I'm skeptical how Grundy gets back into the side with Fritsch still to come in & with Melksham dare I say it borderline un-droppable for at least the short term

He'd need BBB or JVR to really go off the boil

Well neither Brown or JVR are setting the world on fire right now so they are both close enough to being off the boil as we speak 

Not sure either player is safely in the team and would any of us be surprised if either player is dropped over the next 1-3 weeks? (on their current form)

So if Grundy has been flagged to make a return within the next 3 weeks it stands to reason that Brown or JVR will make way (unless they both start producing - unlikely)

Melksham stays and Fritsch will slot in on the other flank once he's fit

I reckon that's the plan ... could be wrong but I can't see Grundy playing the rest of the season in the 2's

He may not be a natural forward but is he any worse than Brown or JVR with their current form?

He'd be a tricky match-up for the opposition with his mobility & rucking ability whilst forward

Of course, it's a whole different conversation if our current KPF's were Neitz & Schwarz

Edited July 16, 20231 yr by Macca

34 minutes ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

And Balme kicked five from memory.

Ha ha!  Different game back then but in finals, KPF's who can take a grab are valuable commodities

It was only 5 years ago that big Mason destroyed flag favourites Richmond with his towering marks

And Brown, T-Mac & Fritsch marked a number of long kicks in the '21 GF

It's my guess that the MC are going with Brown & JVR right now to see which one puts his hand up and which one falls by the wayside

Meanwhile, Grundy gets some forward line practice in the 2's and is waiting in the wings to replace 1 of the 2 current KPF's

The red-herring will be if both Brown & JVR fire.  But what's the likelihood of that happening over the next 2 or 3 weeks (both players firing each week)

Edited July 16, 20231 yr by Macca

22 minutes ago, Macca said:

Well neither Brown or JVR are setting the world on fire right now so they are both close enough to being off the boil as we speak 

Not sure either player is safely in the team and would any of us be surprised if either player is dropped over the next 1-3 weeks? (on their current form)

So if Grundy has been flagged to make a return within the next 3 weeks it stands to reason that Brown or JVR will make way (unless they both start producing - unlikely)

Melksham stays and Fritsch will slot in on the other flank once he's fit

I reckon that's the plan ... could be wrong but I can't see Grundy playing the rest of the season in the 2's

He may not be a natural forward but is he any worse than Brown or JVR with their current form?

He'd be a tricky match-up for the opposition with his mobility & rucking ability whilst forward

Of course, it's a whole different conversation if our current KPF's were Neitz & Schwarz

I just can't see us winning the flag without a BBB/JVR combo. They might not be setting the world on fire but at least they're legit KPF's.

I actually think Grundy has had a solid year, and there's a world where he and Max both co-exist and play good footy, but I'm beginning to think that won't be this year. 

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Certainly not a 5 min job to perfect. And the whole 'package' of how a good forward works is not a quick read.....but it's  not War and Peace , nor Britannica ( apols to younger gens...lol )..   There's a distinct logic about where to be...  you dont learn it rote...you either do or don't get it as much is the application of instictive understanding of opportunistic instances.. Yes a very convoluted way of saying.. position, space and timing.

Some will never get it no matter how much teaching and training....  others...it's inherent...   most....somewhere in between. 

Footy (sport ) is funny in a fashion....some who struggle with common tasks can play a ball like on a string.   Theres such a thing as Footy Smarts ( nouse etc ) . Some can read the flight... some know where to be or how to get there...and have never been 'taught' 

I have no doubt Grundy gets it. His focus will now change.  I'm happy to back him in. He's a skilled talented and very smart player.

He’s a smart bloke. 

To some degree - there are cheat sheet pointers BUT and it is a big BUT - you need consistent roles to structure your game around (ie BBB).

I often say to flanks and pockets, which are effectively the same role nowadays with the running up the ground to come back at the 50, that you have to tether yourself to the predicted targets; where is the CHF? Can I lead into and out of his space and draw a man and can I then get to his feet or beyond? With Brodie, I would honestly say to him, you are the next target, you are deeper than BBB and you can set his movement as your weathervane - when he leads, you move up - if he is ignored you are the longer target, and when BBB is honoured - stop, prop, and move back and then do a V lead or an ankle breaker lead and use the space you just created.

Those cues can provide a bit of a clift notes for him to be effective in a deeper role. 

I would not bother with him at CHF, he would only gum up the works up there - he can’t be the fulcrum ever I don’t think.

26 minutes ago, adonski said:

I just can't see us winning the flag without a BBB/JVR combo. They might not be setting the world on fire but at least they're legit KPF's.

I actually think Grundy has had a solid year, and there's a world where he and Max both co-exist and play good footy, but I'm beginning to think that won't be this year. 

Brown was a legit KPF but his body is starting to give out and JVR is not yet a bona-fide legit KPF

Especially when we compare either player to the likes of Hawkins, Cameron et al.  The much maligned Daniher is streets ahead

Both Brown & JVR have spent periods of time outside of the senior team - this season

And both Brown & JVR will be acutely aware that Grundy will be hovering.  And that can be a motivating factor

Best case scenario would be for both  Brown & JVR to strike form with Grundy putting pressure on but again, what are the chances of that happening?

You can line up all the successful Kpf of the past 20 years and the ones that didn't quite make it and marks per game will pretty much separate the two.  Around 4 is the line, 1 mark a quarter. (Yes, there are exceptions that prove the rule).  Grundy needs to work out how he consistently gomna takes marks in the forward half. He doesn't have a leap and he's not quick.  Tough gig.  

We'll see how it goes, it won't be the same way for the rest of the season.