In Season - Loading/Periodisation: Put your conjecture here.

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

Just now, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Maybe we're just not good enough at the moment.

2/2 tests failed at the home of footy.

If we lose to the Pies can we stop blaming loading and just declare that the 2022 Demons are not as good as the 2021 version? 

 

Why on earth would anyone think they need to declare anything of the sort in mid June?!?!?

[Mickey 4,684]

26 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

Why on earth would anyone think they need to declare anything of the sort in mid June?!?!?

Yep, I'm not concerned at this point either way. We were up with 5 mins to go on Saturday, despite how poorly we were playing. We also had the chance to be 7-8 goals up against Freo but bad kicking let us down.

Our coaching group should have enough credit in the bank for us to back them to find a way out of the slump. 

My one concern is Tmac. He may not have set the world alight at the end of last year, but we need at least 1 key forward firing to let Fritta and the smalls do their thing. And neither the Weid or Mitch Brown fill me with much confidence.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Mickey

[DemonWA 3,934]

I'm sure this exists as a training / conditioning strategy, but to attribute every loss to 'loading is fantasy. 

If the losses were due to the the team running out of legs I'd pay it. But we're loosing due to a lack of connection with our front half which I can't see being related to training loads or intensity 

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

2 minutes ago, Mickey said:

Yep, I'm not concerned at this point either way. Our coaching group should have enough credit in the bank for us to back them to find a way out of the slump. 

My one concern is Tmac. He may not have set the world alight at the end of last year, but we need at least 1 key forward firing to let Fritta and the smalls do their thing.

The forward half is definetely our area with the greatest room for improvement, both with method and personel.  We have 10 games to tinker with things to get them as good as can be for the finals.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 minute ago, DemonWA said:

I'm sure this exists as a training / conditioning strategy, but to attribute every loss to 'loading is fantasy.

Is anyone doing that though? I personally think we may be doing it, but I'm certainly not saying it's the sole reason we lost. There's a TON of factors at the moment, so for mine we're really not traveling that bad considering.

[1964_2 2,357]

41 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Maybe we're just not good enough at the moment.

2/2 tests failed at the home of footy.

If we lose to the Pies can we stop blaming loading and just declare that the 2022 Demons are not as good as the 2021 version? 

 

Nup, if we lose to Pies, would actually add more weight of evidence towards loading being a key factor of recent losses. 
 

Edited June 7, 2022 by 1964_2

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

1 hour ago, Vipercrunch said:

As per the graphs above though, it's not just one load up then taper.  It works so much better if there can be several cycles.  I'm just a hack runner, but I do use training programs and the longer ones all have multiple load then taper cycles that slowly build you up to race day.

Yeh, I can see how it would work. 

But pre the first bye in AFL season, it's hard for me to believe any side's form would be influenced by any form of loading/periodisation. 

The nature of the sport doesn't allow for it given the amount of recovery time needed between a standard 7-8 day break. Which is why you only see one main training session where players are going hard. 

Around byes and through longer breaks I can understand it somewhat and then especially between season and finals. 

But to suggest that our form is being affected by training loads at this point in the season simply doesn't make sense. I have played high level footy and I'd suggest that the chances of individuals dealing with niggles that we're not aware of would be part of the reason as well as others that posters have already outlined.

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,703]

4 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Yeh, I can see how it would work. 

But pre the first bye in AFL season, it's hard for me to believe any side's form would be influenced by any form of loading/periodisation. 

The nature of the sport doesn't allow for it given the amount of recovery time needed between a standard 7-8 day break. Which is why you only see one main training session where players are going hard. 

Around byes and through longer breaks I can understand it somewhat and then especially between season and finals. 

But to suggest that our form is being affected by training loads at this point in the season simply doesn't make sense. I have played high level footy and I'd suggest that the chances of individuals dealing with niggles that we're not aware of would be part of the reason as well as others that posters have already outlined.

How long ago did you play high level footy? mid season topping up of extra training has been a known phenomenon for at least 40 years over different levels of sport.

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

20 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Yeh, I can see how it would work. 

But pre the first bye in AFL season, it's hard for me to believe any side's form would be influenced by any form of loading/periodisation. 

The nature of the sport doesn't allow for it given the amount of recovery time needed between a standard 7-8 day break. Which is why you only see one main training session where players are going hard. 

Around byes and through longer breaks I can understand it somewhat and then especially between season and finals. 

But to suggest that our form is being affected by training loads at this point in the season simply doesn't make sense. I have played high level footy and I'd suggest that the chances of individuals dealing with niggles that we're not aware of would be part of the reason as well as others that posters have already outlined.

Perhaps heavier than usual training loads ramping up in the 4 weeks leading up to the bye is the ideal time to do it so the bye weekend can be used as the recovery week?  We can then do another load up block rounds 15-19 and be cherry ripe for the finals?

[1964_2 2,357]

23 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Yeh, I can see how it would work. 

But pre the first bye in AFL season, it's hard for me to believe any side's form would be influenced by any form of loading/periodisation. 

The nature of the sport doesn't allow for it given the amount of recovery time needed between a standard 7-8 day break. Which is why you only see one main training session where players are going hard. 

Around byes and through longer breaks I can understand it somewhat and then especially between season and finals. 

But to suggest that our form is being affected by training loads at this point in the season simply doesn't make sense. I have played high level footy and I'd suggest that the chances of individuals dealing with niggles that we're not aware of would be part of the reason as well as others that posters have already outlined.

Sorry buddy, but this is off the mark. 

Post season last year, it was acknowledged by many insiders that mid season loading contributed to some poor performances, but was also a key reason why we were so fit in Sept. 

To think that we wouldn’t be capitalising on the 10-0 start, by doing the same thing this year (and it somehow wouldn’t be affecting performance) is madness. 

Congratulations on playing high level footy though. 

 

[binman 43,007]

2 hours ago, Mickey said:

I don't think we are loading yet. I don't think we started loading last year until the bye, and as I've said before, this time last year we were knocking off Brisbane and the Dogs, not slumping. We slumped post bye

Nup, we were definitely loading at the same point ladt year.

Yes, we rolled the lions in round 12, but were flat, down by 4 goals at half time and only won because we were unusually aggressive with our ball movement (much more corridor use than normal). And perhaps the lions were loading and ran out of gas

We then played the pies on Queen' birthday, were flat as a pancake, could only manage 63 points and conceded 25 scoring shots (80 points) against the most dour offence in the afl in 2021. And lost.

Then we had our bye in round 14.

We scrapped over the line against the bombers, only scoring 68 points, in round 15 and got rolled by the giants in round 16 (only scoring 55 points).

We beat Port in round 17  by 5 odd goals, after which maxy was asked about the turn around and mentioned the impact of a big black of training in the previous weeks.

 

 

[binman 43,007]

3 hours ago, Vipercrunch said:

Perhaps heavier than usual training loads ramping up in the 4 weeks leading up to the bye is the ideal time to do it so the bye weekend can be used as the recovery week?  We can then do another load up block rounds 15-19 and be cherry ripe for the finals?

And thst us exactly why they use the bye period.

Makes perfect sense. 

It is at the half way point if the home and away season. 

And it is the one opportunity where all of the best 22 players cam get a minimum nine day break from playing, so recovery from the game does not have to be factored into and they go extra hard in the first week knowing they don't have a game to worry about.

Edited June 7, 2022 by binman

[DemonWA 3,934]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Is anyone doing that though? I personally think we may be doing it, but I'm certainly not saying it's the sole reason we lost. There's a TON of factors at the moment, so for mine we're really not traveling that bad considering.

I see people essentially putting the losses down to Loading without any proof or insight into the clubs training plans. It seems like a convenient excuse to put any mid season blip in form down to 'loading'. 

[Lucifers Hero 39,845]

20 minutes ago, binman said:

And it is the one opportunity where all of the best 22 players cam get a minimum 2 week break from playing, so recovery from the game does not have to be factored into and they go extra hard in the first week knowing they don't have a game to worry about.

But they don'!

Last year they had 11 days between rnd 13 and rnd 15 games.  This year the break is 9 days.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

40 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Sorry buddy, but this is off the mark. 

Post season last year, it was acknowledged by many insiders that mid season loading contributed to some poor performances, but was also a key reason why we were so fit in Sept. 

To think that we wouldn’t be capitalising on the 10-0 start, by doing the same thing this year (and it somehow wouldn’t be affecting performance) is madness. 

Congratulations on playing high level footy though. 

 

Acknowledged by insiders you say?

Cool, maybe you can provide me some solid evidence and we can discuss further?

Never once have I heard from the club that they did any sort of loading at this time of the season to get an edge in finals. And if we had, surely it would have come out by the club/players post season? Why would that be confidential info? 

What I have read and heard (as we all have), from those at the club is that under Burgess, our intensity and loads through pre-season were enormous and that he put a premium on training even when you don't feel 100%. Which is more around giving players a psychological edge. 

Thanks for the congrats. Never once did it this early in the year in any sort of significant sense. After a longer break between games, obviously you have the ability to train for longer and with greater intensity during the week... If you are misunderstanding that to be 'loading' then the joke is fair and squarely on you and others. Lols.

 

 

[layzie 33,814]

1 hour ago, Lucifers Hero said:

That is probably true but there are so many other facts staring us in the face, that we know have affected our players over the last month that I find attributing the losses to 'loading' a tenuous link. 

And what no-one has explained yet is why 'loading', at any time should lead to losses at all. 

Exactly. I can appreciate loading being a factor but I struggle with it as a sole reason for why we are losing games. Am I willing to admit that the fitness staff and coaches look at the season as a whole and decide on which games in the year don't quite have the same importance as others hence the loading period? It's possible and long range thinking we may be better for it.

However if we're being totally honest with ourselves, neither of these previous two losses should have happened. Forget about healthy win-loss ratios, forget about losses we needed to have, there is no reason why these two games should have been lost. I'll say it again, loading should have no affect on our skipper taking a shot from 15 metres out on an angle, loading should have no affect on sticking a 3 metre handball.

This team has earned some major credits in the bank and rightfully so, but the pocket urinating needs to be reigned in a tad. If this was two years ago and Melbourne blew near 5 goal leads twice in a row we would be RIPPING the place down. You can say these were two very good sides we played and yes they were but I think there was a fair bit of us handing these games as well. 

Loading, illness, injuries. I subscribe to all of these being major factors but I don't want this getting away from the fact that we do not seem to be performing in the moment when it matters right now. I don't know if months of building leads and sitting on them rarely being challenged has anything to do with this but we've lost our edge when the blow torches come our way.

It's a bigger game than people think next Monday. 

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

1 hour ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

How long ago did you play high level footy? mid season topping up of extra training has been a known phenomenon for at least 40 years over different levels of sport.

Of course it has. That's because after most games teams will have a different amount of days before their next. The longer the break, the more ability to train. 

That's a different 'phenomenon' to 'loading'. 

I don't think posters appreciate enough the amount of recovery that goes in to an individual after a game at this level. In fact I'm sure they don't. 

No other sport is as taxing on the body. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by JimmyGadson

[Lord Nev 13,512]

13 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

I see people essentially putting the losses down to Loading without any proof or insight into the clubs training plans. It seems like a convenient excuse to put any mid season blip in form down to 'loading'. 

I haven't seen anyone say we've lost purely due to loading, but I might have missed it.

[binman 43,007]

2 hours ago, DemonWA said:

I see people essentially putting the losses down to Loading without any proof or insight into the clubs training plans. It seems like a convenient excuse to put any mid season blip in form down to 'loading'. 

No one is saying loading is the only reason for our form slump. Of course there are other factors.

Regardless of the cause, we were clearly more fatigued against freo and the swans, as evidenced by being run over by by both teams in the second half.

Something that simply did not happen in rounds 1 to 10 last year and this year, or from round 18 last year.

Our game plan does not work with the level of fatigue we saw on Saturday night.

But come the pointy end of the season, fatigue won't be an issue.

You only need to remember how well we ran out games from round 18 last year (not one team, including other top 4 sides, could go with us in second halves - we were far the fittest side) to get a sense of how things will turn.

And it is not an excuse for the losses. It is a factor to help explain our sub optimal performance.

Edited June 7, 2022 by binman

[BW511 2,669]

21 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

But they don'!

Last year they had 11 days between rnd 13 and rnd 15 games.  This year the break is 9 days.

For an elite athlete who trains 5-6 days a week, recovery is one their greatest strengths.

9 days to an elite athlete is probably the equivalent of a month for a regular Joe.

[Lucifers Hero 39,845]

3 minutes ago, BW511 said:

For an elite athlete who trains 5-6 days a week, recovery is one their greatest strengths.

9 days to an elite athlete is probably the equivalent of a month for a regular Joe.

That may be so but binman said at least 2 weeks in his comments supporting last year's loading program which wasn't correct.

[binman 43,007]

3 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

That may be so but binman said at least 2 weeks in his comments supporting last year's loading program which wasn't correct.

I will edit my comments to say a minimum 9 days.

It doesn't change the substance of my argument.

[DubDee 25,886]

The loading must have gotten out of control between 2007 and 2014

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

30 minutes ago, binman said:

And it is not an excuse for the losses. It is a factor to help explain our sub optimal performance.

The most crucial take away... for anyone playing at home.

[—coach— 3,496]

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Binman's theory is just that. 

I'm not sure anyone with a background in exercise science would agree with it. 

I have a little knowledge but to me it's far too early for any form of loading. To this point we'd be managing all levels of fitness. We have a bye coming up and then another 10 weeks of games before finals so any form of tapering/loading now doesn't make sense to me. 

I have a degree in Exercise Science and 22 years experience in elite sport and agree roughly with Binman.

Peak performance readiness only lasts so long. Teams in premiership contention try one of two (with variations) approaches:

- Continue preseason for many weeks into regular season sacrificing peak performance in the interim, banking enough wins along the way (60%/40% is a good result depending on who they play) to keep them in and around top 8, then lightning the load and hitting their straps a few weeks later. This can be followed by a shorter block later in the season (around round 18), with final peaking occurring in finals. This all depends on list/age profile of course.

- Train for a double peak which means they prepare to hit the season running and bank early wins (exactly as we seem to have done), before building load prior to and out the other side of the bye rounds (again sacrificing best performance and looking for a 60/40% win loss record) before hitting a second peak in the later half of the year. (Pre finals bye and pre Prelim bye for those top 4 who win first week allow reduction in game fatigue and increased uptake of train stimulus without negative effect (normally in the form of high intensity work like match simulation activities).

Don't forget there's different forms of loading which have different outcomes. Aerobic Endurance, Aerobic power, Anaerobic endurance and anaerobic power are all types of prescription which have different outcomes. You can't do all at the same time, but tend to focus on them at different phases throughout the season. Not all have a negative effect on game day performance but all come together in the end (in theory) at the right time.

Remember also, not every athlete is the same. Petracca (power athlete) will respond to increases in volume (running and gym reps) different to Langdon (endurance athlete). Hence each will be prescribed different stimulus to suit body type and training background and are monitored via gps for all metrics of volume,  intensity and duration. During this time Petracca will likely get slow and heavy (and thus kick poorly), while Langdon is unlikely to suffer the same way and may in fact get better.

If you add to that the influence of injury and illness, it can become quite a balancing act to make sure all athletes are doing what they need for their best performance. Sometime an athlete may need to extend their period of increased loading because they were sick or injured for a period during that time and actually dropped load whilst sick/injured.

Having worked closely with a S+C coach involved in AFL for 8 years , I can assure you that teams do go through periods of increased training load throughout the season depending on where they sit on the table.

Watching our boys in person the past few weeks they sure do look like they have changed training stimulus.

In any event it's all speculation really as the club isn't about to come and hand out their IP to everyone by telling them what they are doing, so time and on field performance will reveal all!

Edited June 7, 2022 by —coach—