And what about the drop-out rate for umpires once they take it up (more so outside of AFL level)

How long do they last and what are the reasons as to why they give it away

I'm tipping abuse and being intimidated would be right up there as the reasons

Edited April 21, 20222 yr by Macca

2 hours ago, Macca said:

Yeah, that's your view, Gonzo.  We don't all think the same way

I can watch a game of footy and just take all the good with the bad.  As a general rule, I block out all the stuff that might displease me.

It's a chaotic sport, they'll almost certainly never go close with regards to fixing up all the grey areas (due to the nature of the sport) so you can either let it get to you or realise you have to live with it

I do have the odd concern ... the need to have total respect towards umpires and the decisions that they make

And hopefully, we are now going to have a swing in that direction. The game will be better for it

So with regards to our team, I'm thoroughly enjoying our wins and the way that we are playing.  And it's all about the hard work we are putting in. We are getting on with

But you can view stuff any way you like, I'm not trying to change your mind (or the minds of others) ... if I was, I'd be here 24/7 quoting people hundreds of times a day

 

 

I'm not talking about my view or your view though, I'm talking about the difficulties faced by umpires that have contributed to the crisis in umpiring in community footy.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

And what about the drop-out rate for umpires once they take it up (more so outside of AFL level)

How long do they last and what are the reasons as to why they give it away

I'm tipping abuse and being intimidated would be right up there as the reasons

You'd be wrong. The AFL commissioned a report into this and that came in as 8th on the list of reasons at 6% of responses.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-12/afl-umpire-shortage-in-community-australian-rules/100903628

Edited April 21, 20222 yr by Dr. Gonzo

1 hour ago, Macca said:

So here is a grey area that we won't be able to fix

The highly contentious high contact free kick ... players duck, drop their knees, throw their heads back etc etc in order to milk the free kick.  And every year the problem gets worse as more and more players are becoming adept at milking high contact

And it all happens so fast that the umpires can't begin to be able to get the adjudication right.  We often need 3 or 4 replays in order to work it out ourselves

We could decide to not pay high contact free kicks (inless the neck/head area is targeted) but here's the issue with doing that ... the concussion protocols and issues with the head now being sacrosanct

So we can't fix it even if we wanted to

So we have to live with it.  Complaining won't solve the problem

Further to that, we probably see an example of high contact up to 30 times a game (either paid or not paid)

The only possible fix (and it's an extreme long shot) is if they retrospectively ping the cheats and start handing out suspensions retrospectively.  And that might number 100+ players in any given week

And that's just one facet of the sport

Good luck trying to fix it all of it

 

Ever since I've been following the game, players who ducked their head were not rewarded with a free kick. Not sure why that's changed in recent years, if anything it leads to further encouragement of players putting their head/neck in danger by milking free kicks.

It's simple, if you duck into a tackle or initiate the contact it is not a free kick and you will be deemed to have had prior opportunity to dispose of the ball. If you don't and the tackle sticks it is holding the ball against you.

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm not talking about my view or your view though, I'm talking about the difficulties faced by umpires that have contributed to the crisis in umpiring in community footy.

I put most of it down to people in general not recognising that the sport cannot be umpired correctly

If they came to terms with all the umpiring errors (that are going to happen by default) then they may not be concerned

Some areas can be cleaned up somewhat ... full time umps and a clearer definition of the holding the ball area but even so, the grey areas will always reign supreme.  As they always have.  Probably since the mid 19th century

But hey, I've got no chance of changing your mind and vice-versa.  Nor does that bother me at all

My default view on footy is just be the best team in terms of talent and coaching and then you probably won't ever worry about umpiring decisions

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Ever since I've been following the game, players who ducked their head were not rewarded with a free kick. Not sure why that's changed in recent years, if anything it leads to further encouragement of players putting their head/neck in danger by milking free kicks.

It's simple, if you duck into a tackle or initiate the contact it is not a free kick and you will be deemed to have had prior opportunity to dispose of the ball. If you don't and the tackle sticks it is holding the ball against you.

Yeah but the ducking is subjective ... we've had this conversation before, Gonzo

You believe the umpires can sort it out and I disagree.  And my reasons are in a post above

And don't you think that if the umps could sort it out that they would have done so by now? 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

I'd like a 2nd opinion as I don't trust 1 poll only.  As I said yesterday, people don't always tell the truth (for fear of embarrassing themselves)

And the abuse could easily be a secondary reason or at least another reason on top of what they've said

And further to the discussion into high contact free kicks, we have a pool of what, 40 or 50 umpires and they haven't been able to differentiate as yet what is high contact and what isn't high contact.  Over decades? 

Is there even 1 umpire who can get it right most or all of the time on high contact frees?

If the answer is no then they are either all incompetant at the same time or we have an issue with the actual high contact incidents and the adjudication of those incidents

I'm heavily in favour of the latter argument rather than the former.  All it needs is logic applied

Edited April 21, 20222 yr by Macca

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

 

 

I should drag out that Mark Neeld poll (here on this site) where 97% (over 300 people) wanted Neeld to continue on in 2013 and beyond!

The poll on Goodwin staying put?  At one stage 85% wanted to show him the door!

Ah yes, polls!  Not always to be taken seriously

Ask the Trump supporters!!

When a free kick is paid the opposite way the players in dispute and who erred should nod at the umpire. Short sharp nod or 2. An easy emotional recalibration. Better reflex than raising arms obviously. Nod a tad  harder if they need to release the valve.

Just my 2 cents

2 hours ago, Macca said:

And what about the drop-out rate for umpires once they take it up (more so outside of AFL level)

How long do they last and what are the reasons as to why they give it away

I'm tipping abuse and being intimidated would be right up there as the reasons

I am tipping not getting well paid and this not being a legitimate career path is the major reason.

If umpiring at the elite level was a proper full time job junior umpires could pursue, we would have a far higher uptake rate.

It is amazing what people would do for money... they might even be willing to put up with players putting their arms up!

3 hours ago, Vipercrunch said:

I think a much better approach to the games current issues is to get serious about diving/simulation (more charges laid, and bigger fines leading to suspensions to repeat offenders) and to deal with umpire dissent and abuse after the games instead of inconsistently punishing during the games.  The entire system breaks down when the very mild instances like Harris Andrews and the Hawks boys get punished, while the much more demonstrative and aggressive dissent of Hewitt (?? - the Carlton player) get missed.  Start with fines of $5k, keep doubling it for repeat offences.  If a club has more than 5 offences in a year, $50k out of that clubs soft cap for the following year with $50k more for each offence after that.

The final step is to reintroduce a public report into contentious umpiring decisions after each round.  Let us know what decisions were right, what was wrong and why the mistake was made (blind spots, bad positioning etc).  Not to shame the individual umpires, but to help recalibrate the footy loving public as to how the rules are meant to be interpreted.  The inconsistency we are seeing is the main cause of the publics frustrations. 

Geat idea. I reckon the idea of fining (or worse for repeat offenders) AFTER the game  makes a lot of sense.  Other 50m penalties are for things that  affect the play - eg infringing protected zone,, delaying tactics, etc..  Whereas umpire dissent or even abuse has no effect on the play.    So the penalty shouldn't either.

Furthermore, the 50m penalty will be a joke when the game is at a stage that players don't give a flying fig about being punished.  Eg if the Hawks were 10 goals ahead or behind when Hawkins did that dive, a lot of youngsters would still see some poor role models.

41 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I am tipping not getting well paid and this not being a legitimate career path is the major reason.

If umpiring at the elite level was a proper full time job junior umpires could pursue, we would have a far higher uptake rate.

It is amazing what people would do for money... they might even be willing to put up with players putting their arms up!

At the top level it's quite a reasonably well paid part time job ... at the lower levels the clubs are strapped for cash so tens of $Millions would be required to subsidies those umpires

I'm not against that as a concept

But the abuse at junior level is a very real thing ... I've seen it first hand but there would be others here who would have seen that abuse on a more widespread level

We live in a different world now where workplace bullying, mental health, fair working environments and suchlike are front & centre

It's almost like the umpire abuse is one of last bastions that needs to be addressed (although racism in sport, gender equality and other areas still need addressing)

8 minutes ago, Macca said:

At the top level it's quite a reasonably well paid part time job ... at the lower levels the clubs are strapped for cash so tens of $Millions would be required to subsidies those umpires

I'm not against that as a concept

But the abuse at junior level is a very real thing ... I've seen it first hand but there would be others here who would have seen that abuse on a more widespread level

We live in a different world now where workplace bullying, mental health, fair working environments and suchlike are front & centre

It's almost like the umpire abuse is one of last bastions that needs to be addressed (although racism in sport, gender equality and other areas still need addressing)

I think it's important to differentiate between abuse on the ground and abuse coming from over the fence

Are players to be allowed to abuse their opponents in the shared workplace? 

3 minutes ago, sue said:

Are players to be allowed to abuse their opponents in the shared workplace? 

Let us get a working definition of abuse vs sledging vs 'putting off'. 

27 minutes ago, loges said:

I think it's important to differentiate between abuse on the ground and abuse coming from over the fence

Of course

So the clubs that have transgressed need to be cautioned, then fined or premiership points docked

It's like the racist chants in soccer ... ultimately the clubs or countries then have to play in front of empty stadiums

The AFL should have acted in a stronger way with regards to Adam Goodes but we hounded him out of the game

Edited April 21, 20222 yr by Macca

13 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Let us get a working definition of abuse vs sledging vs 'putting off'. 

getting any working definition of anything from the afl would be a first

3 hours ago, Macca said:

My default view on footy is just be the best team in terms of talent and coaching and then you probably won't ever worry about umpiring decisions

This is my default view as well Macca, as a team you aim to focus on what you can control and never leave things in the hands of a force outside of your control. Our game is about execution, athleticism and toughness both physical and mental.

Obviously there's been more than usual frustration lately and there are some serious issues to be ironed out. We do need to aim to fix what we can but ultimately that's what I like my attitude to be when starting in neutral watching a game.

I don't know anyone who doesn't believe that the best teams in terms of talent etc will triumph overall.  But I don't think that should preclude supporters from discussing umpiring decisions or the AFL's management of rule/interpretations etc. critically.  Sometimes that may get over-emotional, but to me it's part of the interest in being a spectator.

33 minutes ago, layzie said:

This is my default view as well Macca, as a team you aim to focus on what you can control and never leave things in the hands of a force outside of your control. Our game is about execution, athleticism and toughness both physical and mental.

Obviously there's been more than usual frustration lately and there are some serious issues to be ironed out. We do need to aim to fix what we can but ultimately that's what I like my attitude to be when starting in neutral watching a game.

And I was the same in my playing days as well as serving on numerous committees (the absolute suburban hack!) ... just keep bringing in the proper talent and you win more games

Get really good and you can win big.  And for the first time in my life (and many others I'm presuming) we've now got that team at the MFC.  Under Northey & Daniher we were good and sometimes very good but we weren't the best nor were we superior to the rest

And are we getting ahead of ourselves?  Doesn't feel that way at all ... we are very good and that's for real.  League-wide, the finger is being pointed at our club (as the best)

And we can get even better as our recruiting is still really good.  As is the coaching

Bring on the Tigers!!!

4 hours ago, loges said:

I think it's important to differentiate between abuse on the ground and abuse coming from over the fence

I have been attending amateur matches for over 50 years. There is regular, loud, critical commentary from over the fence (to be expected from partisan spectators) but this very rarely reaches the level of abuse of the umpires, mainly, I believe, because the adjudication by the umpires in the ammos is often better than senior footy.

So far as I have seen, the ammos strictly enforce any complaints against the clubs.

Great P15S take on The Front Bar

2 hours ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Great P15S take on The Front Bar

Yep, asides from the humorous side, I think they actually had some well measured perspectives on the issue.

Really well highlighted ridiculousness of Brad Scott's do as I say, not as I do.

First up segment from around 1 minute 30.

... Rule18.2 e "No one must burn an umpires  house down... 18.2 f - Everyone must give Joel Selwood free kicks"  lol

On 4/20/2022 at 9:03 AM, Grr-owl said:

The umps need to be professionals. Would solve many problems. Pay them as well as players and you'd have every fitness fanatic player-who-wasn't-quite-good-enough fangin' at the bit to be positive part of footy....

You could argue they are currently paid as professionals but only work part time.

I'm not 100 percent sure, but I think AFL umpires get around 5K per game depending on experience, so around 120K for six months work. Decent money but of course no where near what the top players get.

I don't think money is what is holding back every fitness fanatic who wasn't quite good enough...

How many 50's will the terrible Toby give away tonight? He's a slow learner so i reckon 5 or so.