POSTGAME: Rd 18 vs Hawthorn

[loges 6,767]

58 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

They both can't kick more than about 35 meters with any accuracy.  40 plus they rarely make the distance.  That's why Spargo dumped the kick to the goal square.  Didn't believe he would make the distance.

If these flaws are being shown up in a H&A game against a cellar dweller, imagine what will happen in a final.

Gus also needs to do something with his set shot kicking.  Bloody awful.

Something I noticed before the Collingwood game at the SCG. Pretty sure Choco had Oliver practising torpedoes from just outside the 50m arc and he was making the distance easily and with reasonable accuracy. Better than the chip kick at goals that he fails with every time. Perhaps someone else at the game can confirm.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

It's all about the individual. They get sucked into the media hype and coaches votes from say the Port Adelaide game, and so then it's all about who can be the hero to get the Monday special mention.

Look at the way Oliver carried on like a pork chop when Spargo takes that mark. You would never seen Selwood or Hodge carry on like he did. It looked like a teammate pulled him up on it and so they should.

Even at half time when the camera panned to Oliver and Petracca and they are seen laughing and giggling inside the change rooms. I knew straight away then that this game was going to be close as initially thought.

It's all mental. These blokes pick and choose when they want to show up and player footy on the back of 0 success.

Jayden Hunt yawning on the bench wasn’t a good look, either. 

[rufus 1,162]

47 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

It's all about the individual. They get sucked into the media hype and coaches votes from say the Port Adelaide game, and so then it's all about who can be the hero to get the Monday special mention.

Look at the way Oliver carried on like a pork chop when Spargo takes that mark. You would never seen Selwood or Hodge carry on like he did. It looked like a teammate pulled him up on it and so they should.

Even at half time when the camera panned to Oliver and Petracca and they are seen laughing and giggling inside the change rooms. I knew straight away then that this game was going to be close as initially thought.

It's all mental. These blokes pick and choose when they want to show up and player footy on the back of 0 success.

You are hitting the nail on the head there. So much of what happened on Saturday was plainly embarrassing.

I just want to see the culture of this club evolve so that it can be something you are proud to be associated with. There's no shame in losing to the better team, but there is shame in losing to an inferior opponent who showed more pride than you. Both Hawthorn and Collingwood are proud clubs who took it up to us in a way that we have not done when we've been at the bottom of the ladder (plenty of times) in my lifetime. Those who genuinely believe in the whole 'we only get ourselves up for good quality opponents' rubbish that feels like it's emanating from the players are soon going to realise that when the big boys really come out to play, we still have little to fall back on as a club.

I absolutely love this (paraphrased) quote from Giannis Antetokounmpo a few days ago about his ego and how he reflects on the things he has done in the past: "When you focus on your past, that’s your ego. When you focus on your future, that’s your pride. When you focus on the present, that’s humility." 

[Red But Mostly Blue 4,547]

48 minutes ago, Superunknown said:

I feel like not making the GF this year would be a huge waste given our draw and our start. It would leave a very sour taste. Opportunities like this do not come along often and we're not a dynasty-like Hawks or reliable Cats outfit.

Agree, there'd be a sense of regret, it's a great opportunity - but (for me, at least) I'll be happy if we play a hard fought finals series, and give nothing away for free. If we lose, I presume we will have been beaten by a better team on the day. We can learn from that (rather than the lame 'learnings' and lessons when we switch off against spud teams). Obviously, I'd rather win 3 games in the finals (provided we finish in the top 4 haha). 

In any event, our draw and start don't dictate whether we make a GF, as the stats/W+L record is no longer relevant in the first week of finals. Whilst we have made great inroads this year, our slow starts, poor conversion, switch off mode (particularly against lower teams) means we are still susceptible to teams with more experience/maturity (like the Cats, Doggies and even the Tigers). 

Having said that, do I think we can win the GF? ABSOLUTELY. We can beat anybody (and have beaten all relevant contenders).

But none of that matters, as we need to bring it every week in the finals. The boys must play selfless footy (not just when it suits), and take their chances - because many of the other teams have been here before and will know to take their chances. 

[Red But Mostly Blue 4,547]

9 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Jayden Hunt yawning on the bench wasn’t a good look, either. 

Didn't see that, not great - but it's weird because he was so lively, especially early on. To be fair though, if I could have slept through that game, I would have. 

[loges 6,767]

12 minutes ago, Red But Mostly Blue said:

Didn't see that, not great - but it's weird because he was so lively, especially early on. To be fair though, if I could have slept through that game, I would have. 

Yawning can also be due to nerves.

[one_demon 826]

Last year we would've loved to lose to a bottom team and be on top of the ladder

Edited July 19, 2021 by one_demon

[Red But Mostly Blue 4,547]

9 minutes ago, loges said:

Yawning can also be due to nerves.

This is very true! And given Hunt's energy levels on the ground, probably more likely.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Red But Mostly Blue

[titan_uranus 25,043]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

On field leadership and coaching.

Earlier in the year there was a huge amount of talk and positioning for certain events. Its virtually stopped. We're back to bees to the honeypot, not positioning properly, not doing selfless things etc etc

Gawn, Oliver, Viney and petracca are playing lke individuals again. Langdon hasn't been the same since coming back.

The fwd line is still dysfunctional with crumbers nowhere to be seen this week and as demonstrated by Vineys burst through the middle and not one fwd leading at him

Except none of this was apparent last week vs Port.

The playing like individuals thing seems only to show up when we struggle against bottom 10 sides - i.e. I think the struggles kick in first, and then those players you've mentioned return to pre-2021 form and start trying to be the hero.

The root cause of that, IMO, is that we don't prepare properly for bottom 10 opponents (i.e. the ruthlessness and intensity we show vs top 8 sides is missing from the first bounce). 

So whether it's a bad start (Collingwood, GWS) or it's getting a lead and then feeling too comfortable (Adelaide, Hawthorn), we let bad teams fight back and get belief, and when the pressure of "oh no we're going to lose this game when we're not supposed to" sets in, our players deviate from the system that has won us 13 games.

1 hour ago, Superunknown said:

I feel like not making the GF this year would be a huge waste given our draw and our start. It would leave a very sour taste. Opportunities like this do not come along often and we're not a dynasty-like Hawks or reliable Cats outfit.

What about our draw is a positive?

Repeat games against the Bulldogs and Geelong, the two best sides in it.

As much travel as any other Victorian side, including two trips to Adelaide, a trip to Perth, a trip to Geelong, and a possible trip to Darwin.

At least three games after this week without a crowd (Dogs x 2, Hawthorn), and a further two home games in front of almost no Melbourne supporters (Brisbane, Collingwood).

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

It's all about the individual. They get sucked into the media hype and coaches votes from say the Port Adelaide game, and so then it's all about who can be the hero to get the Monday special mention.

Look at the way Oliver carried on like a pork chop when Spargo takes that mark. You would never seen Selwood or Hodge carry on like he did. It looked like a teammate pulled him up on it and so they should.

Even at half time when the camera panned to Oliver and Petracca and they are seen laughing and giggling inside the change rooms. I knew straight away then that this game was going to be close as initially thought.

It's all mental. These blokes pick and choose when they want to show up and player footy on the back of 0 success.

Whilst I'm supportive of the argument that we have an attitude problem in these games, I actually think too much is being made of the Oliver-Spargo thing. I'm not entirely sure Oliver was all that angry, and it's possible Spargo ignored Oliver's call or something like that. Oliver was also fresh off running the length of the field to make that option, so it's not as if he wasn't doing the team thing to get there.

In-game stuff like that is not as big IMO as stuff like laughing at half time, or Gawn smiling on the bench - stuff like that IMO shows me what's really going through our players' heads by way of preparation and thought. Selwood's a good example - I can't imagine he'd ever be laughing at HT of any match, but on field does anyone whinge at the umpires more than him?

[Kumamoto_Ken 1,531]

On 7/18/2021 at 10:06 AM, BDA said:

It amazes me how many people allow Dr D to drive them crazy

First person on this site I ever blocked. Can recommend, has improved my experience.

[old55 23,687]

21 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Hawthorn won the pressure stat. 206 average. Hawthorn's highest for the  year. Blindingly obvious watching the game they were harder and more switched on than us with numbers at the contest. We had no answer. We fumbled, made poor decisions and went back to the selfish footy of trying to do everything themselves.

And our crumbing forwards were nowhere to be seen when the whips were cracking.

Wow, even more than when they belted the Swans a few weeks ago?

[jnrmac 20,179]

33 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Except none of this was apparent last week vs Port.

The playing like individuals thing seems only to show up when we struggle against bottom 10 sides - i.e. I think the struggles kick in first, and then those players you've mentioned return to pre-2021 form and start trying to be the hero.

The root cause of that, IMO, is that we don't prepare properly for bottom 10 opponents (i.e. the ruthlessness and intensity we show vs top 8 sides is missing from the first bounce). 

Exactly. So its Coaching and leadership.

They both failed against the Hawks. If they can't do it consistently they are going nowhere.

Oliver and Trac in particular pick and choose when to go or when to be selfless and do the team thing. Viney frustrates because he is heart and soul but skill errors and decision making negate a lot of that.

Our fwd line went walkabout and our defence was humbled by blokes that have played about 20 games (Bruest excluded)

 

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:25 AM, jnrmac said:

Is much harder when we continually kick from deep in the pockets. 

Insanity 

I wouldn't mind if it was a decent spread Jnr and matched reasonably closely with other top teams in terms if where they're taking their shots from.

Does anyone have access to set shot spread info / percentages by any chance for us vs others in the comp?

Also the middle is often well covered by the spare defender nowadays meaning the chances of hitting someone up directly in front after the 666 abates (shortly after the bounce) becomes a tad more difficult vs say 20 odd years ago or more when some of the iconic KFs were still operating or coming to the end of their hiatus.

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,274]

The result was described as a massive upset.

Was anyone here really surprised? I wasn't. 

[jnrmac 20,179]

37 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

I wouldn't mind if it was a decent spread Jnr and matched reasonably closely with other top teams in terms if where they're taking their shots from.

Does anyone have access to set shot spread info / percentages by any chance for us vs others in the comp?

Also the middle is often well covered by the spare defender nowadays meaning the chances of hitting someone up directly in front after the 666 abates (shortly after the bounce) becomes a tad more difficult vs say 20 odd years ago or more when some of the iconic KFs were still operating or coming to the end of their hiatus.

Our whole game appears to be based on being predictable for our team mates. That would be fine but its also predictable to opposition teams and its easy for a good coach to try to upset that. Not all teams are capable of doing it but North and others discovered that moving the ball quickly by hand through the middle destroys our advtantage of strong intercept defenders.

Our kick ins I would estimate go 90% to the left hand side if May is kicking in. Often there is a player free in the corridor or RHS of the ground that is ignored. Predictability is clearly a trait that Goodwin favours.

Problem is we look so much better when running freely out of defence and when we take the game on. You have to back your talent in that sort of game but we only seem to go that way when the game is reaching its conclusion. 

 

[demon3165 2,802]

The real problem was that no change to the forward line when it was clearly evident that it was not working should have spread the players out instead of gathering in one spot we just got sucked in and that is a coaching error.

If anyone has listened to Nick Riewoldt  on how he played the one thing I took away and that was keep moving your opponent around on the run all day that is something we do not do, players standing still or standing behind their opponent.

Next year I hope there are coaching changes with this area of our game.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by demon3165

[Fat Tony 5,262]

15 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Our whole game appears to be based on being predictable for our team mates. That would be fine but its also predictable to opposition teams and its easy for a good coach to try to upset that. Not all teams are capable of doing it but North and others discovered that moving the ball quickly by hand through the middle destroys our advtantage of strong intercept defenders.

Our kick ins I would estimate go 90% to the left hand side if May is kicking in. Often there is a player free in the corridor or RHS of the ground that is ignored. Predictability is clearly a trait that Goodwin favours.

Problem is we look so much better when running freely out of defence and when we take the game on. You have to back your talent in that sort of game but we only seem to go that way when the game is reaching its conclusion. 

 

I think the conditions helped the Hawks tactic of using scrappy entries inside 50. And like the Crows, they gambled a bit by going into the corridor with handball. Is that a weakness of our defensive structure? Not sure. In both those games we had a lot more scores but just did not convert and they hardly missed.

That said, our strategy in offence is becoming too predictable and we should look to attack a bit more off half back, particularly from kick ins. Rivers was all on his own a few times on the open side for kick ins and was not used.

I also think we are too conservative with our entries when kicking into a crowded forward 50 and would like to see us look to switch and/or kick it more central rather than deep into the pocket.

The team has not had much practice coming from behind this year and has not been able to adjust from the rigidity of the game plan to attack mode. Rather than a complete change in tactics (as is currently required when we need to come from behind) I would prefer to see us tweak Plan A to be a bit more attacking.

[jnrmac 20,179]

21 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I think the conditions helped the Hawks tactic of using scrappy entries inside 50. And like the Crows, they gambled a bit by going into the corridor with handball. Is that a weakness of our defensive structure? Not sure. In both those games we had a lot more scores but just did not convert and they hardly missed.

That said, our strategy in offence is becoming too predictable and we should look to attack a bit more off half back, particularly from kick ins. Rivers was all on his own a few times on the open side for kick ins and was not used.

I also think we are too conservative with our entries when kicking into a crowded forward 50 and would like to see us look to switch and/or kick it more central rather than deep into the pocket.

The team has not had much practice coming from behind this year and has not been able to adjust from the rigidity of the game plan to attack mode. Rather than a complete change in tactics (as is currently required when we need to come from behind) I would prefer to see us tweak Plan A to be a bit more attacking.

All teams know not to kick it long to lever and may. The teams that have pinpointed passes, used handball and created theor own chaos or dirty ball entry have done well.

We haven't handled it and added to that we are mentally weak - there's no other words for it. To succumb to lower teams so consistently is an abject failure of coaching and leadership

[Fat Tony 5,262]

43 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

All teams know not to kick it long to lever and may. The teams that have pinpointed passes, used handball and created theor own chaos or dirty ball entry have done well.

We haven't handled it and added to that we are mentally weak - there's no other words for it. To succumb to lower teams so consistently is an abject failure of coaching and leadership

We conceded 21 scores vs Crows and 19 vs Hawthorn and didn’t win either largely due to goal kicking differential. I think the bigger issue is conversion and our ball movement being a bit too predictable and conservative. The other main problem at times is trying to get a perfect exit at stoppages rather than just getting a quick kick forwards. 

[binman 43,726]

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

 we are mentally weak - there's no other words for it. To succumb to lower teams so consistently is an abject failure of coaching and leadership

What a load of tripe

[Dingo 1,126]

On 7/17/2021 at 10:14 PM, picket fence said:

We are soooooo mentally weak. I' ll call this a loss and add Adekaide, collingwood and Gws and it means we are so far away its not funny

[censored] ladder posirion flatters us.

Still and will always lack KILLER INSTINCT

Cow poo - we are on top!

 

[Dingo 1,126]

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

All teams know not to kick it long to lever and may. The teams that have pinpointed passes, used handball and created theor own chaos or dirty ball entry have done well.

We haven't handled it and added to that we are mentally weak - there's no other words for it. To succumb to lower teams so consistently is an abject failure of coaching and leadership

So that’s why we are in such a precarious position?

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

5 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Our whole game appears to be based on being predictable for our team mates. That would be fine but its also predictable to opposition teams and its easy for a good coach to try to upset that. Not all teams are capable of doing it but North and others discovered that moving the ball quickly by hand through the middle destroys our advtantage of strong intercept defenders.

Our kick ins I would estimate go 90% to the left hand side if May is kicking in. Often there is a player free in the corridor or RHS of the ground that is ignored. Predictability is clearly a trait that Goodwin favours.

Problem is we look so much better when running freely out of defence and when we take the game on. You have to back your talent in that sort of game but we only seem to go that way when the game is reaching its conclusion. 

 

As you say Jnr, predictability certainly has its benefits.  It may have, and probably has, taken us a long way in 2021 and played a significant part in seeing us still top of the ladder as we speak.

However as the season wears on and opp analysts have had the chance to break us down with over 17/18 weeks of data, plus watching the evidence on video using those teams that have had the most success, they start to prepare a little better and begin to find creative ways of chipping away at our strengths and enhance a few of there own to suit our predictability.

The alternative wing should be used more often as you say.  Put dogga out there with Lingers and a crumber, Kozzie , and at least hit that side up occasionally to keep the opp guessing and not just hitting up a crowded out LHS so often (always looking for Big Maxy).

My other two bug bears are the predictability with which we use the left side then kick it in to that left hand pocket / flank far too often IMV.  It allows the opp to easily set their defence / zone and bias it for that side of the ground....with ease as that's pretty much their only major focus.  Makes their role and objectives pretty straight forward IMV and just doesn't ask enough questions of the individuals and their match ups either.  Nor does it allow many of our forwards to try and expose their opponents one out often enough either IMV. 

Too easily defended and we usually have so many heading/leading to that side making it extremely difficult to score.

We should, as a minimum, hold at least one KF and a medium/small on the fat side in case we get past / or through their down the line defenders or even go inside and open up the ground quickly.  Allowing that free deep player around the arc or through the middle to kick to fat/favoured side and hit that KF/medium or small up or even better where possible, over the top for the joe-the-goose.

I understand it may be a ploy that works alot of the time and allows us to lock the ball in / set up behind and then all going well gain repeat entries.   However if your ability to convert a goal from that strat is so small, say15% / 20% or thereabouts (just guessing here no solid data), then the opp only needs to find a way through it on say one out of every 3 entries and they're likely to catch us out on the counter if they transition quickly and cleanly, especially through the middle.  They will likely score a goal themselves here and all that effort, including 2 to 4 repeat entries, is for nought.  Possibly break even at best.

Taking this further, why would you look to kick almost always to the skinny pocket / flank IF you're not going to place manic pressure on your oppo defenders once the ball hits the ground?  No doubt we probably attempt to bring this pressure as often as possible but in recent times i just don't think we've either shown it or been capable of keeping that heat up for very long during quarters.

From the outside it is difficult to know what the exact strat/instructions are from Coach/s to their playing groups so who knows they might be demanding this manic pressure from most/all forwards (and mids) and this is where we are falling down as some may not be capable or able to for long enough.  Some not capable at all?  Or they might be doing exactly as asked and just playing the 1.5 diamond rolling zone or whatever it is.  I'm pretty sure the latter is in play for kick ins which is understandable for parts of a game as it's probably impossible to enforce man on man for an entire match and may leave the defence too exposed out the back on a fast break also.  Although the Hawks did seem to bring this on Sat night with great effect so not sure why it's not possible for us to achieve, at least for a large % of a match.

If the coach is driving this loose team zone defence set up in our forward half on kick ins then IMHO i really can't see that strat getting us very far in a pressure cooker that is finals against highly rated teams/players.  Other than for small patches and certainly not at the start of a match when it's critical to press the opp deep in their defence early IMO in order to effect early turnovers and score from them in order to pile on some scoreboard pressure.

History shows that any 3 to 4 goal lead in a first quarter results in a win about 7 to 8 times out of ten.  It's extremely hard to peg back and go on to win from there.  Especially in a final or GF.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Rusty Nails

[jnrmac 20,179]

1 hour ago, Dingo said:

So that’s why we are in such a precarious position?

Yeah, great smart alec comment.

Play like that in finals and we are out in straight sets. But yeah its only been 57 years, whatever

[Bay Riffin 1,479]

23 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Just finished watching again. The last two goals in the 3rd were from poor handballs from Hibberd. Missed targets twice and also over an the ball several times during the game, he was extremely poor, which something he hasn’t been all year

not wanting to pot him but he's been poor and fumbly recently. particularly poor in the Essendon game then again against the giants. but he has shown he can turn it around. He just needs his confidence back and to handle the pill more cleanly.