45 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Sorry, I should have been more specific.  What would you do about COVID and opening up?

Opening = go hard on vaccine mandates for employability (even harder than currently), hard on vax certificate mandates for any public engagement/entertainment, and bring forward the date for gathering in homes to 70% double vaxxed, i.e. personal discretion with responsibility. 
For Covid I’d do nothing different in the short term, cos we’re almost there, but then I’d make aggressive long term investments in health care/quarantine facilities, which means infrastructure, staffing (increase intakes for all health care by improving professional attractions) and medical research. 

16 hours ago, Webber said:

Certainly was. Post-war, in fact post-polio in the 1950’s, our infrastructural pandemic response was high. Fairfield Hospital as @Premiers has mentioned, and Point Nepean quarantine facility to mention two now non-existent entities. Without getting too political (though it’s not really possible), the Kennett years savaged Victoria’s public health protections. Labour governments as you say haven’t had anywhere near the guts to repair it. NSW avoided the Kennett effect. The broader trend is post-war neo-liberalism’s erosion of governmental responsibility for health. The rise of Private Health, which creates a horribly ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’ system in itself (just look at the US), together with growing societal wealth disparity simply means we have an under-resourced, hierarchical system of health provision and protection. COVID should be the biggest wake-up call. I’m not hopeful. We can, as you also say, vote for a correction. But we need the choice to be offered. Depressing.
 

As a positive, the paramedic student I treated was attracted to the profession only because of a complete overhaul of pay and conditions, which people may remember was such a hot union issue a few years ago (ambulances with ‘graffiti’ calling for improvements?). They now get 12 weeks annual holiday, protections on the job through better staffing, mental health care, etc. They are an essential Public Health Service that was being run into the ground by economic deprivation and staff exploitation. Oddly enough, it’s now seen as a much more attractive profession. Would that this model be applied universally, and those who hoard an ever-greater slice of the wealth pie be a MUCH bigger part of footing the bill. We’ll see. 

 

Hey Webber - a really interesting post. You obviously know a lot more about it than I do, but I'm not sure it's just a matter of Labor lacking the guts. It's more a matter of our 'common-wealth' being eroded by years of progressively shrinking tax revenue and smaller government...ie they lack the money, not the guts. The latest tax cuts from Morrison, in which somebody on $200,000 will pay the same percentage as somebody on $40,000, will presumably accelerate the situation.  

15 minutes ago, Jara said:

Hey Webber - a really interesting post. You obviously know a lot more about it than I do, but I'm not sure it's just a matter of Labor lacking the guts. It's more a matter of our 'common-wealth' being eroded by years of progressively shrinking tax revenue and smaller government...ie they lack the money, not the guts. The latest tax cuts from Morrison, in which somebody on $200,000 will pay the same percentage as somebody on $40,000, will presumably accelerate the situation.  

I completely agree Jara. Maybe it’s not just lacking the guts, but perhaps the ability/leadership to convince the Australian people of a need to reverse the ‘shrink’, as you say. Look at the negative gearing shambles from the last election. Couldn’t be a better way to address an egregious advantage to the wealthy than getting rid of negative gearing. What happened? Labour lost the election, got spooked, and have dropped it. Is that an inability to prosecute the case, or a lack of courage? Both maybe? 

18 hours ago, Webber said:

Opening = go hard on vaccine mandates for employability (even harder than currently), hard on vax certificate mandates for any public engagement/entertainment, and bring forward the date for gathering in homes to 70% double vaxxed, i.e. personal discretion with responsibility. 
 

This is probably a contradiction to my support of the measures that have been put in place to contain the spread of covid, and possibly in contrary to the health advice, but i think the Vic government should consider removing the direction to wear a mask outside once we open up - perhaps not immediately, but maybe connect it with a milestone such as 75% double vax rate.     

I understand the logic of the current advice around the use of masks outside - and in particular that the direction helps ensure people have masks on them at all times and makes it far less likely someone goes from outside to an inside environment (eg a supermarket) and forgets to put a mask on until inside. 

My experience walking around my suburb and down the shops is compliance is at all time low and i for one am finding myself getting frustrated with people who blatantly ignore the direction. But I rarely see someone inside without a mask

I think removing the direction for wearing masks outside, particularly as we come into the summer months, will mitigate against some of the angst that is building up.

Also i'm sure some people are actively choosing not to wear a mask outside to make some sort of 'you cant tell me what to do, i'm such a rebel' statement.  Changing the rule takes that platform away from these merchant bankers. 

I also think it might help with compliance with wearing mask indoors, and general compliance with other health directions. Not to mention maybe dropping everyone's frustration down a notch or two.  

And the evidence of transmission seems to suggest outdoors is relatively low risk and once we get to say 75% double vax rate, even more so - particularly given some people will continue to choose to wear mask outside anyway.

Edited October 13, 20213 yr by binman

On 10/12/2021 at 11:16 AM, Webber said:

Agree entirely. The problem is that this requires enormous investment (18 months was never enough time to bridge the gap, but I agree the process should have been fast-tracked regardless), which must be sourced from the populous. Tax levies must be increased to pay for a more expansive system, wages and conditions for health-workers must be improved to attract them. I’m happy to pay for this. Do you think our governments (all) have the stomach for selling this to the public at large? 

 

The Private Heath Insurance rebate could be abolished and the billions redirected to Public Health system including ambulatory care/NAP. Private Health Insurers would be forced to compete properly for your $. That’s an easy sell. 
 

Boondoggles abound especially Howard era ones and this one is an easy sell to the electorate. 
 

From there a levy for including dental in a Medicare follows.

3 hours ago, Webber said:

I completely agree Jara. Maybe it’s not just lacking the guts, but perhaps the ability/leadership to convince the Australian people of a need to reverse the ‘shrink’, as you say. Look at the negative gearing shambles from the last election. Couldn’t be a better way to address an egregious advantage to the wealthy than getting rid of negative gearing. What happened? Labour lost the election, got spooked, and have dropped it. Is that an inability to prosecute the case, or a lack of courage? Both maybe? 

It’s reflective of the terrible power the Murdoch media have over the electorate as well as most people can’t critically examine this and similar issues plus Labor’s really really poor prosecution of its platform. How they allowed Morrison to parlay a good idea (EV) into “they’ll roooooon the weekend” is criminally incompetent. Look at how Matt Kean is doing it in NSW now. It’s a range of factors. 

4 hours ago, binman said:

I think removing the direction for wearing masks outside, particularly as we come into the summer months, will mitigate against some of the angst that is building up.

Masks outside disappear (not compulsory) at 80% double vaxed (around 2 November).

• Up to 10 people (including dependants) are permitted at your home.
• Up to 150 fully vaccinated people can dine indoors, and up to 30 can gather in public outside.
• Indoor community sport open for minimum number required.
• Masks are only required inside.
• Pubs, restaurants and cafes can open for seated service only, up to 150 fully vaccinated people inside and 500 outdoors

https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/victorias-roadmap#phase-c-80-double-dose

 

10 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Masks outside disappear (not compulsory) at 80% double vaxed (around 2 November).

• Up to 10 people (including dependants) are permitted at your home.
• Up to 150 fully vaccinated people can dine indoors, and up to 30 can gather in public outside.
• Indoor community sport open for minimum number required.
• Masks are only required inside.
• Pubs, restaurants and cafes can open for seated service only, up to 150 fully vaccinated people inside and 500 outdoors
• MCG open for up to 20, 000 fully vaccinated Melbourne fans to watch a replay of the 2021 Grand Final 

https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/victorias-roadmap#phase-c-80-double-dose

 

Fixed

The Melbourne supporter and bar owner just got a 3 month sentence in the can for illegally entering WA.

Well I dunno... I reckon line ball worth it??

 

1 hour ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Well I dunno... I reckon line ball worth it??

 

Wonder how that compares with the hundreds of others that have broken the border rules. Not that I don't think they should be penalised but they're probably being made an example of...

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

The Melbourne supporter and bar owner just got a 3 month sentence in the can for illegally entering WA.

Good news!

8 hours ago, binman said:

This is probably a contradiction to my support of the measures that have been put in place to contain the spread of covid, and possibly in contrary to the health advice, but i think the Vic government should consider removing the direction to wear a mask outside once we open up - perhaps not immediately, but maybe connect it with a milestone such as 75% double vax rate.     

I understand the logic of the current advice around the use of masks outside - and in particular that the direction helps ensure people have masks on them at all times and makes it far less likely someone goes from outside to an inside environment (eg a supermarket) and forgets to put a mask on until inside. 

My experience walking around my suburb and down the shops is compliance is at all time low and i for one am finding myself getting frustrated with people who blatantly ignore the direction. But I rarely see someone inside without a mask

I think removing the direction for wearing masks outside, particularly as we come into the summer months, will mitigate against some of the angst that is building up.

Also i'm sure some people are actively choosing not to wear a mask outside to make some sort of 'you cant tell me what to do, i'm such a rebel' statement.  Changing the rule takes that platform away from these merchant bankers. 

I also think it might help with compliance with wearing mask indoors, and general compliance with other health directions. Not to mention maybe dropping everyone's frustration down a notch or two.  

And the evidence of transmission seems to suggest outdoors is relatively low risk and once we get to say 75% double vax rate, even more so - particularly given some people will continue to choose to wear mask outside anyway.

Binman I have written this elsewhere but I now see a lot of my friends and rels breaking some of the restrictions. Most are double vaccinated and are now taking some risks to see their families. We have been lockdown for the majority of the last 20 months and people are over it. I have an elderly friend who is double vaccinated who said to me. I cannot do this anymore I am seeing my children and grandchildren if I catch covid and die so be it but I cannot continue to live on my own. May not be the right thing to do but that is the way many people now think. 

2 hours ago, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

Well I dunno... I reckon line ball worth it??

 

The idiots did it in WA, the worst place. Stupid, Stupid. They have got what they deserved IMO. 

1 hour ago, old dee said:

The idiots did it in WA, the worst place. Stupid, Stupid. They have got what they deserved IMO. 

And the Northern Territory - when they’re released from WA, they need to go there to face the music all over again.

 

 

I don’t have an ounce of sympathy for those blokes who have to spend the next few months in the clink.

If it’s good enough for RDB, Daniher, Mann, Neitz, Schwarz and other Demon Royalty to miss out on seeing a premiership live, then it’s good enough for these nobodies.

12 hours ago, old dee said:

The idiots did it in WA, the worst place. Stupid, Stupid. They have got what they deserved IMO. 

 

11 hours ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

And the Northern Territory - when they’re released from WA, they need to go there to face the music all over again.

 

 

And they could lose their livelihoods. Both work in industries which need licences (or perhaps registration). One holds a liquor licence which requires the holder to be a fit and proper person. I believe the other is a financial planner. Ignoring or deliberately evading regulatory rules is the sort of offence which licensing and regulatory law enforcement agencies don't like.

Yeah not a lot of sympathy from me. Maybe the term is a little excessive but handing out another fine would have been run of the mill. Forget the crossing the border thing, forging of those kinds of documents is bad enough. 

We're still in Australia aren't we?

One could be forgiven for thinking we are in China or Latin America, travel restrictions, Jail sentences, Rubber bullets, tear gas, fines etc 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Dante said:

We're still in Australia aren't we?

One could be forgiven for thinking we are in China or Latin America, travel restrictions, Jail sentences, Rubber bullets, tear gas, fines etc 

 

 

We still have Covid, don't we?

I still don't understand many of the arguments presented regarding removed freedoms. We accept government rules every day. For example, how would it be if we decided that we don't need to drive on the left hand side of the road? Or if we chose to drive knowing our blood alcohol level is greater than 0.05%? Or decided that paying tax was optional? More frighteningly, imagine London during WW2 if some people decided to exercise their freedoms by not conforming to blackout laws at the time?

It's been 370 years since Thomas Hobbes "Leviathan" was published. If people really want to get their idea of freedom and the role of government from the internet, start here. 

1 hour ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

We still have Covid, don't we?

I still don't understand many of the arguments presented regarding removed freedoms. We accept government rules every day. For example, how would it be if we decided that we don't need to drive on the left hand side of the road? Or if we chose to drive knowing our blood alcohol level is greater than 0.05%? Or decided that paying tax was optional? More frighteningly, imagine London during WW2 if some people decided to exercise their freedoms by not conforming to blackout laws at the time?

It's been 370 years since Thomas Hobbes "Leviathan" was published. If people really want to get their idea of freedom and the role of government from the internet, start here. 

You totally miss my point.

This is not WW2 in the blackout nor is it old Europe where you had to have a passport to get from one country to the next, we now have a series of States with their own rules and depending on where you live, freedom or not.

These are not established laws, we now have police able to pepper spray elderly women and shoot rubber bullets and tear gas at people protesting, there is provocation from both sides but only the police can get away with it. 

Edited October 14, 20213 yr by Dante

9 minutes ago, Dante said:

You totally miss my point.

This is not WW2 in the blackout nor is it old Europe where you had to have a passport to get from one country to the next, we now have a series of States with their own rules and depending on where you live, freedom or not.

These are not established laws, we now have police able to pepper spray elderly women and shoot rubber bullets and tear gas at people protesting, there is provocation from both sides but only the police can get away with it. 

Sounds as though you’ve got a separate agenda there. There are myriad forums for this sort of discussion. Perhaps you could Google “f**k the corrupt cops” or similar. Just a suggestion. 
You’re welcome. 😉

19 hours ago, old dee said:

Binman I have written this elsewhere but I now see a lot of my friends and rels breaking some of the restrictions. Most are double vaccinated and are now taking some risks to see their families. We have been lockdown for the majority of the last 20 months and people are over it. I have an elderly friend who is double vaccinated who said to me. I cannot do this anymore I am seeing my children and grandchildren if I catch covid and die so be it but I cannot continue to live on my own. May not be the right thing to do but that is the way many people now think. 

I see this a lot in my community too OD. I happen to live on the 4th floor of an apartment building in Elsternwick and at night I can see people moving around and coming in and out of houses (well after lockdown). In the last month it’s become almost laughable the way people are breaking the rules.

I also think the rising case numbers prove that a lot of people aren’t following the rules, because their will has been broken by the oppressive nature of the lockdowns. It’s a really interesting social experiment. I feel like if the numbers were going down the perceived benefit would inspire people to do the right thing. It’s counterintuitive that the lockdown isn’t working and more people are doing the wrong thing, but here we are.

17 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Sounds as though you’ve got a separate agenda there. There are myriad forums for this sort of discussion. Perhaps you could Google “f**k the corrupt cops” or similar. Just a suggestion. 
You’re welcome. 😉

I don't have any agenda but thanks for the advice anyway. I actually used to respect the police until they became part of the problem.

BTW, I was going to give you some advice after reading some off your comments last night, but as they've been deleted I won't.

 

2 minutes ago, Dante said:

I don't have any agenda but thanks for the advice anyway. I actually used to respect the police until they became part of the problem.

BTW, I was going to give you some advice after reading some off your comments last night, but as they've been deleted I won't.

 

I didn’t realise some comments of mine had been deleted. I can’t imagine why I’ve been censored, so to speak. Anyways, I’m not trying to engage in a battle with you, or anyone for that matter, it’s just that I can’t abide by general police-bagging. Personal reasons at play. All good.