14 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I assume the pro unvaccinated are happy to live in and out of lockdowns for the rest or their lives and/or be excluded from every day events such as movies, sporting events, concerts, restaurants, pubs etc...

I'd also like the pro-unvaccinated to be excluded from the everyday event called the public health system for any Covid-related illness, too.

 

16 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'd also like the pro-unvaccinated to be excluded from the everyday event called the public health system for any Covid-related illness, too.

 

People make stupid choices on an all too regular basis, doesn’t mean we exclude them from accessing public health care (which their taxes also contribute towards).

Should we also restrict health care for those who fail to wear a seatbelt, or whose BAC is over .05, or swim outside the flags at the beach? Or, god forbid, play contact sports such as football? Of course I'm being a bit facetious with that one 

Who decides where we draw the line? Happy-clappy ScoMo? No thanks.

Exclusions from day-to-day activities should be enough of a penalty. And hopefully enough of an incentive to get the jab. 

12 minutes ago, Stiff Arm said:

People make stupid choices on an all too regular basis, doesn’t mean we exclude them from accessing public health care (which their taxes also contribute towards).

Should we also restrict health care for those who fail to wear a seatbelt, or whose BAC is over .05, or swim outside the flags at the beach? Or, god forbid, play contact sports such as football? Of course I'm being a bit facetious with that one 

Who decides where we draw the line? Happy-clappy ScoMo? No thanks.

Exclusions from day-to-day activities should be enough of a penalty. And hopefully enough of an incentive to get the jab. 

The harsh b@stard in me says, "Good idea". But, I accept your general point. 

3 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

The harsh b@stard in me says, "Good idea". But, I accept your general point. 

 La Dee, don't for a minute think I'm not as angry as the next person about anti vaxxers. Unfortunately humans have a right to be stupid

 

Edited August 25, 20214 yr by Stiff Arm

France and now Greece...

Even Russia has exclusion rules

The Greek government has announced that, as of next month, all indoor eateries, bars, clubs and entertainment venues will be off limits for citizens who have not been vaccinated against Covid-19.

Other venues, including theatres, cinemas, museums and archaeological sites, will allow access to people who have not had the vaccine but only if they provide proof of a negative rapid test conducted within 48 hours. Rapid tests, which are currently free of charge, would cost €10 for all those who had not been vaccinated, he said.

From September, workers in both the public and private sector who are not vaccinated will also be required to have at least one rapid test per week. Those employed in academia, tourism, restaurants, cafes, bars and other forms of entertainment, as well as school and university students, will be obliged to undergo rapid tests twice a week with only school pupils eligible for free tests.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/24/greece-announces-bars-and-clubs-off-limits-for-unvaccinated

On 8/23/2021 at 11:52 AM, Jaded said:

 

Gladys > Buddy

9 minutes ago, Jaded said:

Gladys > Buddy

Gladys won over 1000 today. The fight was lost there weeks ago it is now impossible to get the Genie back in the bottle.

I think the Grand Final may yet be played at the MCG...

...a long way to go.

2 minutes ago, rjay said:

I think the Grand Final may yet be played at the MCG...

...a long way to go.

In 2023?

On 8/25/2021 at 10:43 AM, Stiff Arm said:

People make stupid choices on an all too regular basis, doesn’t mean we exclude them from accessing public health care (which their taxes also contribute towards).

Should we also restrict health care for those who fail to wear a seatbelt, or whose BAC is over .05, or swim outside the flags at the beach? Or, god forbid, play contact sports such as football? Of course I'm being a bit facetious with that one 

Who decides where we draw the line? Happy-clappy ScoMo? No thanks.

Exclusions from day-to-day activities should be enough of a penalty. And hopefully enough of an incentive to get the jab. 

There is indeed a very valid debate to be had around the morality of these sorts of decisions.

I will say, though, that for at least some of these examples you've cited, those actions are either criminal or at least capable of being punished by fines (e.g. not wearing a seatbelt or having a BAC over .05).

I have relatives who have got it into their heads that covid is overblown, just a flu, vaccines are more dangerous than the authorities are letting on etc.etc. They are not stupid people. They have fallen victim to some of the misinformation, disinformation, conspiracy theories that are out there.

Main stream media, government, big corporations have all let us down so you can hardly blame people for not trusting them. It's not like they haven't given us plenty of reason to distrust them. The trust deficit combined with the information overload is a big problem.

We're worried for our relatives. One has co-morbidities so when they come in contact with COVID they could be in trouble. They are not rabid anti-vaxxers like you see at the protests. They are everyday reasonable people who have got the wrong idea in their heads. Suggesting they are denied access to the health system is wrong 

3 minutes ago, BDA said:

I have relatives who have got it into their heads that covid is overblown, just a flu, vaccines are more dangerous than the authorities are letting on etc.etc. They are not stupid people. They have fallen victim to some of the misinformation, disinformation, conspiracy theories that are out there.

Main stream media, government, big corporations have all let us down so you can hardly blame people for not trusting them. It's not like they haven't given us plenty of reason to distrust them. The trust deficit combined with the information overload is a big problem.

We're worried for our relatives. One has co-morbidities so when they come in contact with COVID they could be in trouble. They are not rabid anti-vaxxers like you see at the protests. They are everyday reasonable people who have got the wrong idea in their heads. Suggesting they are denied access to the health system is wrong 

I have a similar experience BDA, it beggars belief but here we are. I think the group is much larger than the Pollies think. It appears to me that a combination of Government / Heath authorities have failed to address these concerns. They Need to get adverts flowing on the effects people endure who contract the virus. Those adverts with written messages do little in my opinion most people do not even read them. We need the grime reaper types from the HIV period. 

7 minutes ago, BDA said:

I have relatives who have got it into their heads that covid is overblown, just a flu, vaccines are more dangerous than the authorities are letting on etc.etc. They are not stupid people. They have fallen victim to some of the misinformation, disinformation, conspiracy theories that are out there.

Main stream media, government, big corporations have all let us down so you can hardly blame people for not trusting them. It's not like they haven't given us plenty of reason to distrust them. The trust deficit combined with the information overload is a big problem.

We're worried for our relatives. One has co-morbidities so when they come in contact with COVID they could be in trouble. They are not rabid anti-vaxxers like you see at the protests. They are everyday reasonable people who have got the wrong idea in their heads. Suggesting they are denied access to the health system is wrong 

i can understand some normally reasonable everyday people with comorbidities might be be fearful of getting vaccinated.

all i can do is tell you a story. my 98 yo mil, has all her marbles and heaps of comorbidities. she has been double vaxxed wih az and on both occasions had zero symptoms

7 minutes ago, old dee said:

I have a similar experience BDA, it beggars belief but here we are. I think the group is much larger than the Pollies think. It appears to me that a combination of Government / Heath authorities have failed to address these concerns. They Need to get adverts flowing on the effects people endure who contract the virus. Those adverts with written messages do little in my opinion most people do not even read them. We need the grime reaper types from the HIV period. 

I have a mate that caught it this time last year, fit bloke went for 5-10km runs couple times per week prior to catching covid.  He says now it feels like his lungs are going to cave in every time he runs.  They need to be telling people more about this long Covid and the effects it can have you for a long period of time.

My wife was dead against getting my teenage kids vaccinated when we can, I showed her the long Covid that was one Sunrise this morning and the ongoing effects it can have, her mind has changed we will be getting kids shots as soon as we can. 

Edited August 26, 20214 yr by drdrake

13 minutes ago, BDA said:

I have relatives who have got it into their heads that covid is overblown, just a flu, vaccines are more dangerous than the authorities are letting on etc.etc. They are not stupid people. They have fallen victim to some of the misinformation, disinformation, conspiracy theories that are out there.

Main stream media, government, big corporations have all let us down so you can hardly blame people for not trusting them. It's not like they haven't given us plenty of reason to distrust them. The trust deficit combined with the information overload is a big problem.

We're worried for our relatives. One has co-morbidities so when they come in contact with COVID they could be in trouble. They are not rabid anti-vaxxers like you see at the protests. They are everyday reasonable people who have got the wrong idea in their heads. Suggesting they are denied access to the health system is wrong 

I get the confusion and mis-trust especially with the messaging regarding AZ vaccine. Any layperson would be confused

The thing I don't get is why people have stopped trusting their doctor, professors, medical professionals and scientists. When have we been shafted or let down by them?  I miss the old days of doing what your doctor told you. You don't need to understand anything more than your doctor/nurse will do what is best for you.

The situation is Germany is concerning, their Vax rate has stalled around 60%.  they reckon there is over 30% of people who will not take the vaccine - this is Germany!   is it just staggering

1 minute ago, DubDee said:

I get the confusion and mis-trust especially with the messaging regarding AZ vaccine. Any layperson would be confused

The thing I don't get is why people have stopped trusting their doctor, professors, medical professionals and scientists. When have we been shafted or let down by them?  I miss the old days of doing what your doctor told you. You don't need to understand anything more than your doctor/nurse will do what is best for you.

The situation is Germany is concerning, their Vax rate has stalled around 60%.  they reckon there is over 30% of people who will not take the vaccine - this is Germany!   is it just staggering

any particular socio economic, ethnic or other groups stand out?

3 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

any particular socio economic, ethnic or other groups stand out?

Not sure, I'll ask my friend next time we talk

She did say there is a election next month, Merkel on the way out.  And of course the two new candidates have opposing views on covid lockdowns Vs freedoms.  They are on the verge of a 4th wave

22 minutes ago, old dee said:

I have a similar experience BDA, it beggars belief but here we are. I think the group is much larger than the Pollies think. It appears to me that a combination of Government / Heath authorities have failed to address these concerns. They Need to get adverts flowing on the effects people endure who contract the virus. Those adverts with written messages do little in my opinion most people do not even read them. We need the grime reaper types from the HIV period. 

I'm not sure what can be done. They don't pay any attention to govt or adverts. Only serious covid illness on their doorstep will changes minds i'm afraid

We have the highest rates of child vaccinations in the world. Inherently we are pro vaccines and science and for those who aren’t, you can trust the government is make it as difficult as possible. Think no jab no play. It will be incredibly difficult to live in Australia without a vaccine by this time next year. And so it should be. 
I am sorry if you don’t believe in science. Tough luck. Immunity is a community effort and we all need to do what we can to protect everyone, especially those who really can’t get vaccinated due to age or other medical conditions. 

29 minutes ago, BDA said:

I'm not sure what can be done. They don't pay any attention to govt or adverts. Only serious covid illness on their doorstep will changes minds i'm afraid

Sadly I think you are correct. 

On 8/25/2021 at 10:43 AM, Stiff Arm said:

People make stupid choices on an all too regular basis, doesn’t mean we exclude them from accessing public health care (which their taxes also contribute towards).

Maybe not exclusion, but perhaps receive a lower hospital rebate.

Sooner or later we need to provide the incentives for people to help themselves. Why should the medical system incur huge costs, that we all pay for, to treat someone who illogically refuses preventative medicine like a free vaccination?

I realise this might mean that, say, a smoker dying of lung cancer or an obese person with diabetes, could be in the same situation. But how far do we go with pandering to people who won't help themselves? And a line may need to be drawn somewhere.

Living in a rural area, I pay heavily for bushfire insurance, but I also do a lot of work to reduce fire hazards and fuel levels. It's in my interest to help reduce fire impacts and keep premiums lower, for me and even for those who are uninsured and let fuel build up right next to their house. But insurance companies are now starting to refuse (or at least greatly increase premiums) for insurance in very high risk zones.

42 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

any particular socio economic, ethnic or other groups stand out?

My first guess would be the elderly. In Poland the younger generations are wholly embracing vaccination. But the elderly are disinclined. My son’s parents-in-law are prime examples. They claim because they live in a tiny village they are ‘safe’ and it just means they will no longer go to Warsaw to see him. It’s gotten to the point where he has to ‘threaten’ them with no more visits unless they get vaxxed. He and his wife, their daughter, can’t convince the old couple that although they’re both double vaxxed, they can still get covid and potentially pass it on to them. Very frustrating. 

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

There is indeed a very valid debate to be had around the morality of these sorts of decisions.

I will say, though, that for at least some of these examples you've cited, those actions are either criminal or at least capable of being punished by fines (e.g. not wearing a seatbelt or having a BAC over .05).

what about BMI over 50 should they be refused access?

Murky moral ground is this better not to go there in my view??

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

any particular socio economic, ethnic or other groups stand out?

How about "Facebook user". Is that a group?

2 hours ago, rjay said:

I think the Grand Final may yet be played at the MCG...

...a long way to go.

Andrews ruled it out today without formally ruling it out.

I wish you were onto something though....