POSTGAME: Rd 01 vs Fremantle

[Lucifers Hero 39,606]

1 hour ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

Coaches votes

https://www.afl.com.au/news/568465/coaches-votes-r1-dusty-tex-baz-off-to-a-flyer-in-2021

Melbourne v Fremantle

10 Steven May (MELB)
7 Clayton Oliver (MELB)
7 Jake Lever (MELB)
4 Tom McDonald (MELB)
2 Andrew Brayshaw (FRE)

Goodwin/Longmuir split:

• 5/5  May
• 4/3 Lever/Oliver
• 3/4 Lever/Oliver
• 2/2 TMac
• 1/1 Andrew Brayshaw

Very even voting by the coaches. 

Really pleased for Tommy - Great recognition having have been below his best in recent times.

Edit: to change the post from votes for Angus to Andrew Brayshaw.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Lucifer's Hero

[BDA 22,735]

3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Real credit to Angus on a limited pre-season.

the votes went to his brother Andrew

[CHF 2,720]

I will take 4 points and 'learnings' from any win rather than 0 points and lessons from any game.

It was a good win as far as i am concerned. Played well in the first quarter and later in the 4th quarter and came awy with a lot to work on. I liked Jordon's first game. He looks composed and confident and I am looking to to see how he builds on that. I liked Sparrow's game aas well and I think he will add to the depth of the Mids. tackles well and has a bit of toe about him. Spargo was great in the game and if he can produce that game on a consistent basis he will play a lot of game for the Dees.

There are  a couple of broken links to work on such as the link between Ruck and Mids and the kick into the forward 50 needs work still. I counted no less than 5 times in the last quarter where the last kick into the 50 was to an opponent for  mark or badly directed into open space with defenders closest to the drop.

Defence was excellent but they will come up against better forwards in the future, starting next week. May, Lever, Tomlinson and to a lesser extent Rivers were all great and cutting off attacks with intercept marks. Jetta had a good game against a smaller less experienced player. he will come up against better players as from next week nd that will be a better indication of where he is at.

Mids, As my teachers used to say about me, 'Can do better'. Looks to me as if Oliver ha been asked to take on opponents a bit more than he has in the past. He will be better for this game where he was caught a lot. Freo were not good enough to fully punish us. Petracc had a quiet game by his standards I thought. having said that, his followup efforts at the contest are just great. He hates to be beaten. I like to look of Kossie in the middle every now and then. A little different for the opposition to work out.

It was good to see TMac up and about and I think there is a bit to work with with the players we have available. At one stage in the first at a center bounce there was Fritsch in the square, Max 30 out and Spargo on the 50m arc with Jackson in the ruck. Later in the 4th TMac was in the square, Fritsch 10m in front of him, Jackson 40 m out and Pickett on the 50m arc. It will be interesting to watch the form and development of this group.

Saints next week and I will be looking for the team to look a little less rusty and a bit more 'on'.

[CHF 2,720]

I have a question....

Why is it that with all the WhizBang technology that is available these days we cannot properly hear the questions at the after match presser?

[Roger Mellie 3,991]

10 hours ago, CHF said:

I have a question....

Why is it that with all the WhizBang technology that is available these days we cannot properly hear the questions at the after match presser?

It's a long drawn out dispute over who pays for the sound tech during the interviews - the AFL v the journalists (or their organisations). As you can see, it's unresolved and is likely to stay that way. To put it mildly, it's lame!

[binman 42,687]

The clearance differential is not the cause of concern some are making it out to be i don't think.

Essentially, like many clubs, we are modelling key aspects of our game on the tigers.

The tigers don't care about clearances. Their focus is on what happens after the clearance defensively. 

As is ours, a shift that happened last season.

Opposition win a clearance from a stoppage (which is where 80% occur, centre square clearnces are seen but not the main game).

We put the ball carrier under pressure, who dump kicks into their 50. We intercept, often with a mark. 

We are set up well ahead of the ball and hurt them on transition (though we turn it over much more than the tigers unfortunately- which is why kozzie and spargo are so important).

Rinse and repeat.

Winning clearances is no longer the kpi it was. Important, yes. Critical, no.

Consider this. At one point in the first i think I heard a commentator say they were 8 zip up in clearances.

We were 3 goals up and dominating.

And the commentators were pointing out time abd time again our intercept marks.

But of course not making the connection. Because, you know who would expect full time professional to get it. Daisy would have pointed out the connection. 

They have arguably one of the top 3 mids in the game in fyfe and a strong support crew. They will win their fair share of clearances.

And no doubt freo fans are bemoaning rhe fact they won the clearances and lost the match. Just as we did so often in say 2019.

But we were always in control of that game. They pressed early in the third and once that was repelled it was game over.

They got more clearances. But we killed them with intercept marks and as result got 75 odd percent of our score from turnovers.

Just like the tigers.

Think about how often that had happened to us in the past. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by binman

[Forest Demon 4,681]

Yes, Freo had the first 8 clearances, but I certainly didn’t feel like we were “dominating”. Freo’s ball use early was disgraceful, and they could have easily put us to the sword early. I think we are playing a very dangerous game if we concede clearances to that extent against better sides.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,671]

Looking at Freo's injury list I don't think they were missing many from their best 22.

I'd say from best 22 would be Walters, Darcy, Frederick, Lobb, Logue and maybe Hill but he's getting past it.

We had Brown, Weid, Viney & Hibbo so not a lot of difference.

 

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,671]

48 minutes ago, binman said:

The clearance differential is not the cause of concern some are making it out to be i don't think.

Essentially, like many clubs, we are modelling key aspects of our game on the tigers.

The tigers don't care about clearances. Their focus is on what happens after the clearance defensively. 

As is ours, a shift that happened last season.

Opposition win a clearance from a stoppage (which is where 80% occur, centre square clearnces are seen but not the main game).

We put the ball carrier under pressure, who dump kicks into their 50. We intercept, often with a mark. 

We are set up well ahead of the ball and hurt them on transition (though we turn it over much more than the tigers unfortunately- which is why kozzie and spargo are so important).

Rinse and repeat.

Winning clearances is no longer the kpi it was. Important, yes. Critical, no.

Consider this. At one point in the first i think I heard a commentator say they were 8 zip up in clearances.

We were 3 goals up and dominating.

And the commentators were pointing out time abd time again our intercept marks.

But of course not making the connection. Because, you know who would expect full time professional to get it. Daisy would have pointed out the connection. 

They have arguably one of the top 3 mids in the game in fyfe and a strong support crew. They will win their fair share of clearances.

And no doubt freo fans are bemoaning rhe fact they won the clearances and lost the match. Just as we did so often in say 2019.

But we were always in control of that game. They pressed early in the third and once that was repelled it was game over.

They got more clearances. But we killed them with intercept marks and as result got 75 odd percent of our score from turnovers.

Just like the tigers.

Think about how often that had happened to us in the past. 

100%. Pretty sure against the Tigers a few years ago we won the clearances and had more inside 50's and lost by 40 odd points.

[deelusions from afar 1,802]

58 minutes ago, binman said:

The clearance differential is not the cause of concern some are making it out to be i don't think.

Essentially, like many clubs, we are modelling key aspects of our game on the tigers.

The tigers don't care about clearances. Their focus is on what happens after the clearance defensively. 

As is ours, a shift that happened last season.

Opposition win a clearance from a stoppage (which is where 80% occur, centre square clearnces are seen but not the main game).

We put the ball carrier under pressure, who dump kicks into their 50. We intercept, often with a mark. 

We are set up well ahead of the ball and hurt them on transition (though we turn it over much more than the tigers unfortunately- which is why kozzie and spargo are so important).

Rinse and repeat.

Winning clearances is no longer the kpi it was. Important, yes. Critical, no.

Consider this. At one point in the first i think I heard a commentator say they were 8 zip up in clearances.

We were 3 goals up and dominating.

And the commentators were pointing out time abd time again our intercept marks.

But of course not making the connection. Because, you know who would expect full time professional to get it. Daisy would have pointed out the connection. 

They have arguably one of the top 3 mids in the game in fyfe and a strong support crew. They will win their fair share of clearances.

And no doubt freo fans are bemoaning rhe fact they won the clearances and lost the match. Just as we did so often in say 2019.

But we were always in control of that game. They pressed early in the third and once that was repelled it was game over.

They got more clearances. But we killed them with intercept marks and as result got 75 odd percent of our score from turnovers.

Just like the tigers.

Think about how often that had happened to us in the past. 

Spot on.  Some people don't get it.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,193]

16 hours ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

Great player but too much of a 'good bloke'.

With his size and frame hes the one that should be dishing it out.  

Get Strawbs O'Dwyer in to have a chat to him you reckon?

[dpositive 1,663]

On 3/21/2021 at 9:37 AM, Lord Nev said:

Yeah that's a fair call, the problem though is he's generally standing still or running in circles at the moment and then handballing to someone under pressure. Once he backs his instinct more often, runs OUT of trouble and kicks it we'll have an absolutely unbelievable player on our hands instead of a very very good one.

He certainly seemed to hod it longer looking for a better option than just an immediate hand off.

He had some difficulty at times as he had a player hanging off him most of the time. No doubt he initiates some of the attention he gets but clearly the umpires allow him to be scragged. This seems an increasing tactic used on all elite players by most teams. We seem to be the only team that allows an opposition to run free. Last week was Fyffe, will watch who it will be next week.

sheperding and blocking would seem a necessity unless the player is a bull like Trac, who can carry his way through tackles, this could be practised at training. Bradshaw seems to still be able to gather the ball and step through the pack. Viney of course has always been criticised for his charges through packs and indiscriminate blind kick.

Maybe our midfielders have different techniques and rather than training that out of them for a homogenised pattern we need to use the different approaches with a technique to negate opposition responses. With a superior ruck in Max we can get more systems than other teams and have a reliance on attack at stoppages rather than defending. We can have an assurance that we can defend deeper if we lose the initial mid field scirmish.

[dpositive 1,663]

On 3/21/2021 at 6:51 PM, Hellish Inferno said:

Part of the problem is that so many of our mids only know one way and that was drilled into them since they were kids. 

The issues we saw with the midfield may look bad because the players are trying to do something different as instigated by Yze and co, and it doesn't come naturally so the first few games are still an adjustment period. Let's hope they figure it out soon

Have said before each of our mids has a different attribute. This should be recognised and used rather than change.

Gawn can be like a quarterback calling for a different style of attack based on which mid attribute he will use

[ManDee 7,125]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Get Strawbs O'Dwyer in to have a chat to him you reckon?

Strawbs was a good player. I think he was better than Stynes. He had mongrel and put the wind up the opposition. He was cruelled by injury. I don't think you can teach mongrel.

[Fat Tony 5,220]

I posted in the preseason about 5 players who I felt we needed to improve for us to take the next step.

1.       Oliver – After a slow start, I liked his game because his kicking was pretty good. I think he needed to be a bit quicker to kick the ball forward out of the clearances at times and he was a bit fancy with his handball in tight. All in all, we saw an efficient game from Clarry. A Brownlow year out of Clarry is the difference between us finishing mid-table or near the top. And for him to get there it is not about more accumulation; it is all about efficiency.

2.       Petracca – Trac is our best player but needs to be cleaner. He dropped easy chest marks and missed set shots. Playing on after the siren was something an U10 player would do. While he was still good on Saturday, we need him to step up and be great.

3.       Fritsch – Bailey needs to stop looking like a good kick and actually be a good kick. It was a typical Fritsch game really. He looked pretty good and contributed but wasted chances in front of goal.

4.       Jackson – Dogga was quiet for most of the game until the last quarter. He is one of the most exciting young talents in the competition when he is timing his marking. I am pretty confident he has the technique to become a solid kick for goal in time.

5.       Weideman – injured.

Otherwise, I felt our backline was sensational, led by Lever and May, and our clearance work was hopeless. It was good to see Jetta, TMac, Kossie, ANB and Spargo show such good form. Rivers was disappointing with his disposal. Jordon had an impact on debut.

The other point is that the rule changes could really suit Ben Brown when he comes back.

[sue 9,096]

10 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

....

The other point is that the rule changes could really suit Ben Brown when he comes back.

In what way do you think?  Surely not in his goal kicking given how he does it with a slow steady approach?

 

[binman 42,687]

2 hours ago, Forest Demon said:

Yes, Freo had the first 8 clearances, but I certainly didn’t feel like we were “dominating”. Freo’s ball use early was disgraceful, and they could have easily put us to the sword early. I think we are playing a very dangerous game if we concede clearances to that extent against better sides.

Sure, but part of the issue for freo was one, our pressure and two well how well structured we were defensively. 

And our ball use was equally bad. The tigers would have been six goals up at the end of the first quarter. And gone into cruise control. Game over.

Im not saying an early  eight zip clearance differential is great. Just not the indicator it once was for us.

[Fat Tony 5,220]

3 minutes ago, sue said:

In what way do you think?  Surely not in his goal kicking given how he does it with a slow steady approach?

 

We seem to be seeing a more open game with space to lead into. Brown has always been an excellent one on one player but finds it tough in a big pack situation. Brown also has a massive engine and will be suited to the limited interchange.

[Altona-demon 321]

Binman - interesting perspective.  I enjoyed having a think about whether we were deliberately conceding clearances in order to create opportunities to "intercept mark" a very risk strategy indeed you'd have to think.

Fortunately for us, Fremantle was incredibly wasteful with their posessions going inside our defensive 50.  If we adopt a similar strategy I don't think we will be so lucky - let's not forget who our defenders were defending against.  This was a relatively good match up for us - as soon as the weather comes on and intercept marking becomes harder and we play against a small forward line - i'm not so sure that this strategy will "stack up".  In particular, I am not sure Jake Lever will look as good when the ball is at his feet more and more often. 

It was noticeable however, and commented on regularly by Browny, that the set up of Melbourne was great behind the ball. Which is a good positive.  

Let's see some different looks at stoppage from our midfield group - a bit of variety. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,193]

1 hour ago, ManDee said:

Strawbs was a good player. I think he was better than Stynes. He had mongrel and put the wind up the opposition. He was cruelled by injury. I don't think you can teach mongrel.

Not sure he was better than Stynes but agreed he was underrated. Was one of our best in our 1988 run.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

3 hours ago, binman said:

The clearance differential is not the cause of concern some are making it out to be i don't think.

Essentially, like many clubs, we are modelling key aspects of our game on the tigers.

The tigers don't care about clearances. Their focus is on what happens after the clearance defensively. 

As is ours, a shift that happened last season.

Opposition win a clearance from a stoppage (which is where 80% occur, centre square clearnces are seen but not the main game).

We put the ball carrier under pressure, who dump kicks into their 50. We intercept, often with a mark. 

We are set up well ahead of the ball and hurt them on transition (though we turn it over much more than the tigers unfortunately- which is why kozzie and spargo are so important).

Rinse and repeat.

Winning clearances is no longer the kpi it was. Important, yes. Critical, no.

Consider this. At one point in the first i think I heard a commentator say they were 8 zip up in clearances.

We were 3 goals up and dominating.

And the commentators were pointing out time abd time again our intercept marks.

But of course not making the connection. Because, you know who would expect full time professional to get it. Daisy would have pointed out the connection. 

They have arguably one of the top 3 mids in the game in fyfe and a strong support crew. They will win their fair share of clearances.

And no doubt freo fans are bemoaning rhe fact they won the clearances and lost the match. Just as we did so often in say 2019.

But we were always in control of that game. They pressed early in the third and once that was repelled it was game over.

They got more clearances. But we killed them with intercept marks and as result got 75 odd percent of our score from turnovers.

Just like the tigers.

Think about how often that had happened to us in the past. 

 

I think you're trying to put a positive spin on something that was not planned by us. Their ball use going inside was absolutely appalling and quite frankly we had a get of jail card in Jake Lever and Steven May 

Our game absolutely still relies on us being on top in clearance and contest. It has to, given the type of players Goodwin puts in and around the ball. 

Things like positioning, not getting too sucked in, spread etc are all elements that we've been poor at and continue to be poor at.

Outside of Fyfe, our mids should have easily accounted for the younger, less developed and less hardened mids of theirs. But we didn't. Oliver, Harmes, Brayshaw, Petracca and Gawn needed to take the game by the scruff. 

I think it would be wiser to wait until we play a half decent opposition with not so many key players out before making a call regarding the weekend's game.

I think it's clear as day our game style against Freo was not by design.

Edited March 23, 2021 by JimmyGadson

[Dr. Gonzo 24,193]

7 minutes ago, Altona-demon said:

Binman - interesting perspective.  I enjoyed having a think about whether we were deliberately conceding clearances in order to create opportunities to "intercept mark" a very risk strategy indeed you'd have to think.

Fortunately for us, Fremantle was incredibly wasteful with their posessions going inside our defensive 50.  If we adopt a similar strategy I don't think we will be so lucky - let's not forget who our defenders were defending against.  This was a relatively good match up for us - as soon as the weather comes on and intercept marking becomes harder and we play against a small forward line - i'm not so sure that this strategy will "stack up".  In particular, I am not sure Jake Lever will look as good when the ball is at his feet more and more often. 

It was noticeable however, and commented on regularly by Browny, that the set up of Melbourne was great behind the ball. Which is a good positive.  

Let's see some different looks at stoppage from our midfield group - a bit of variety. 

I don't think we're deliberately conceding clearances but we are setup very well behind the ball which means if we do lose them we can intercept and counter attack.

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

42 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

3.       Fritsch – Bailey needs to stop looking like a good kick and actually be a good kick. It was a typical Fritsch game really. He looked pretty good and contributed but wasted chances in front of goal.

 

 

He could have had a bunch of 5-6 goal games already in his career. Hes always looks an inch away from tearing a game apart but never does.  He will soon though.

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

19 hours ago, Demon Dude said:

Gawn in my opinion is soft. there's a reason he gets targeted. he doesn't get angry, he just complains to the umpires.

Said similar before myself.  Max wins his tap then does nothing to help the midfielders clear the congestion.  He is a liability almost when the ball hits the ground.   He needs to start throwing his weight around, he is a huge unit but Spargo plays with more tenacity around the contests.  Max needs to start playing with lot more aggression, clearing paths for our onballers by blocks/screens or just throwing himself at a contest and make things happen.

Complaining to the umpires shows the weak mindset he actually has during games.   

Seeing him being bullied by comparative midgets says a lot about us.  He is our Captain and if he does not lead by example and fly the flag occasionally, who will?  

Love Max as a "character" and apparently he trains like a dedicated footballer should, but it is time to show a hardened edge to his game to not make him so easy to play against.

I don't think Max gets angry though, or he never shows it by his actions.

Every match is a virtual war, he needs to start playing accordingly.  ATM a player like Mumford would do a lot more for our esteemed midfield.  

FFS get angry and SHOW it Max!

[binman 42,687]

1 hour ago, Altona-demon said:

Binman - interesting perspective.  I enjoyed having a think about whether we were deliberately conceding clearances in order to create opportunities to "intercept mark" a very risk strategy indeed you'd have to think.

 

I never said we were deliberately conceding clearances in order to create opportunities to "intercept mark". That would be crazy.

I said winning clearances is no longer the kpi it was. Important, yes. Critical, no.

As i noted it is a tactical shift that started last season, and was really evident in the back half of the season. 

A tactical shift that mirrors the tactics employed by the team that has won three of the last four flags.

As Dr Gonzo notes, we are setup very well behind the ball which means if we do lose clearances we can intercept and counter attack.

And like the Tigers and West Coast, another team that isn't totally focused on clearances (and the winner of the fourth flag in the last 4 years) we now have brilliant intercept talls in May and Lever.

The key to this tactical shift being effective is making sure there is pressure on the player kicking the ball and the defensive web is set up well ahead of the ball. The tigers are brilliant at both aspects. 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by binman